So I’ve been reading this book called “The Church Impotent: the Feminization of Christianity,” Leon Podles. Good stuff, nothing there I find disagreeable. My only compliant would be he’s terse. “Terse” is an odd word that I never use, so it’s a bit amusing that it kept popping into my head while reading.
Terse, as in short on words and abrupt right to the edge of being rude. I don’t do well with terse people, they have a cold informality that I find off-putting. However, I am aware it can be a masculine style of communication and thought, not intended to be rude at all, but simply focused and detached from empathy. Guy’s busy fighting dragons, he doesn’t have time to address people’s needs. People’s needs are women’s dragons, so you can see different mindsets going on there.
The masculine and the feminine, interpersonal relationships, culture, gender and the church, these things are all my cup of tea, so I appreciate having read it. For those who don’t know, issues around masculinity and femininity are huge, and perhaps one of the least adequately addressed issues. At least in my opinion, the church has either mangled its response and teachings or else outright avoided discussing it at all. Here we are living in a secular culture that is just a train wreck of sexual identity, gender confusion, homosexuality, 50 shades of gray, and Miley Cyrus riding her wrecking ball across the TV set, and we of the church tend to just cover our eyes politely and look away or stare in grim fascination, as if we can just kind of pretend that culture stops at the church doors and can’t touch us.
I live in a land of extremes, so much of my time is spent hearing how the church is oppressive, patriarchal, and hates women, while also residing in the midst of some churches so liberal there is some question as to whether or not they should be called “churches” at all. Conversely however, there is also this huge unchurched church where I live too, and lots of men will speak to me of preferring to worship in God’s cathedral outdoors, rather than entangling themselves in the people politics of “church.”
A bit ironic too, when I speak of masculinity and femininity, I am not necessarily talking about male and female so much. When I was walking away from feminism, my male dominated, male run church was walking towards it, eventually embracing gay marriage. So in crazy upside down world, I was mostly talking to men about the feminization of the church, and you know, all in good humor here, but being totally over ruled in that oppressive, patriarchal way. I’d say, but scripture and they’d say, but church leadership…
So, I’ve spent the past 30 years or so sorting out gender issues, exploring masculinity and femininity within faith, how it all impacts our churches, what it means to us personally, how it affects our perceptions of God Himself. Are we driving people away from Jesus Christ or towards Him and how do we do a better job of leading or guiding people?
The church is actually not a building or an institution, it is us, we the people who follow Christ. I suppose Leon Podles being Catholic could have some different views on that, but that is how I see things. I also believe we all have to work out our own gender issues within faith, I mean one cannot simply declare the church has been feminized or the church is this oppressive patriarchal entity, therefore I have arrived at truth, condemned the church one way or the other, and can now just wash my hands of the whole matter. I think this is one of those times were a bit of subjective, self relection is called for. Yes, the church has masculinity/femininity issues, but which issues are actually your problem versus the responsibility of some 2.2 billion believers who make up the Body of Christ?
Myself, I tend to have a very masculinzed view of faith, something Podles touched on which I found very interesting because I’ve never heard anyone say it before, but I too believe we are all somewhat masculine in faith. That’s a complicated concept to put forth, especially as the Bride of Christ, which is clearly feminine. The church as an entity, a whole, is the Bride, but we as believers are actually emulating Jesus Christ, and often called to be warriors, soldiers, of a spiritual sort at least.
Meat, substance, power, authority, these are all masculine things, and indeed, the very same things one struggles so hard to find within the church. As Podles so aptly said, to reject the masculine is to render The Church Impotent.
newenglandsun said:
The Church is the Community of all the baptised peoples baptised in our Lord Jesus Christ.
This is true in Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, etc.
I think that Catholic social commenters can generally come out terse (and not just them) largely because they are steeped in a Church which has such a vast Tradition and rests on notions of ecclesiastical authority and precedent.
Which is not to say Scripture isn’t existent in the Catholic Church either. Without Tradition, no Scripture, without Scripture, no Tradition.
Overall, I agree with you and Podles. Can I try to win a copy of the book? I’m dirt broke.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I left a link to his book behind his name. It’s free. Read it, I bet you would enjoy it.
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newenglandsun said:
Thanks 🙂
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Julie (aka Cookie) said:
I too feel that I possess that “masculine” view of faith…and there is much to say about that…but I think I shot the wad earlier so I’ll save those words for later 😉
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K. Q. Duane said:
Exactly! Totally impotent.
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Brandon Adams said:
You have a fascinating story.
Have you read “Wild at Heart”? If so, what are your thoughts?
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
“I’d say, but scripture and they’d say, but church leadership…”
Foxes book on Christian martyrs – The “church” murdering hundreds of God fearing men insisting their rules were above scripture. Self deluded attitudes are alive and well.
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Liberty On the Lighter Side said:
It is an interesting point about us having a masculanised faith, Jesus addresses God as Father and told us to do likewise when we pray. And then Genesis 1:27 tells us that He created us in HIS image, Although, we are refered to Christ’s bride and wisdom is also described as feminine, I do get a bit antsy if people use the term ‘mother God’. Jesus, of course, was the archetypal feminist in that he displayed unprecedented respect towards women. Ultimately, what does it matter whether our modern cultural influences on the church sway it from left to right when it is Christ who will build it, with or without our correct notions of what it ought to be?
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karenlts25 said:
Thanks IB. The whole idea of authority, power, rights and submission is not exactly a new, yet certainly front and center almost everywhere these days. What has struck me these past weeks is that the ones who have the greatest challenge with authority is us humans, the souls Jesus died for and came to rescue. Jesus, as God’s Son, acted only according to His Father’s will and direction. For those of us who follow Jesus, it’s clear even the enemy of our souls and his hierarchy of powers and principalities has a clear understanding when it comes to authority. “I know who You are, the Holy One of God.”
For a couple of weeks I’ve been latched into Luke 4:31-37. What I am left with is that when the authority of Jesus speaks, teaches and commands, there is and may always be those who simply marvel yet remained unchanged, those that get all stirred up and drive Him out, and those who are set free and reconciled to their Father in heaven.
As for the Church impotent, seems to me that we never had the power ourselves to begin with, it comes from One Source or another.
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you,much appreciated 🙂
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
You’re very welcome my friend 😎
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Mel Wild said:
We historically have had a tendency to overreact to injustices and let the pendulum swing too far the other way. Thus, trying to correct misogynist theology creates liberal feminist theology. But this totally miss the point. And this is partly because the roles in Christ are confusing to us; we normally associate father, son, bride, with male or female gender, when they are actually neither. These are relational terms (a “son” is also a daughter, males are part of the “bride,” a woman can be a spiritual “father,” etc.). There is “neither male nor female” in Christ (Gal.3:28), so there’s a lot to sort out in trying to keep proper tension between the sexual differences and our proper roles in the body of Christ. However, insofar as relating to one another and respecting spiritual gifts, our identity in Christ must trump gender.
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MJThompson said:
Gabrielle – Thanks for more spiritual ‘food for thought’. I appreciate your shared views. They evoked this humble reply…
As to whether we’re driving people away from Jesus Christ or towards Him and how to do a better job of leading or guiding people – that VERY question is the sole reason I chose full-time ministry as my personal vocation. During the past 40 years I’ve experienced many ‘victories’ as well as several unanticipated negative results.
In order to really ‘lead one to Christ’, we must 1st and foremost realize that it is Christ the PERSON (a living being) we must introduce – NOT doctrine, religion, or church affiliation. ALL those are by-products, POSSIBLE helpful ‘elements and tools’ to aid in the spiritual growth of a true believer, BUT ONLY a TRUE BELIEVER!
I think that the difference between an individual’s approach to their application of Christianity pertaining to masculinity or femininity is similar to the perceived nature comparing male and female. The idiom regarding ‘gatherers’ and ‘nurturers’ profoundly influences this understanding. Henceforth, a ‘masculine’ view would be primarily works oriented – needing to fulfill the ‘doing’ of faith, perpetually striving towards accomplishment. Conversely, the ‘feminine’ expression is far more consumed with ‘feeling’ rather than ‘doing’, in fact, ‘doing’ is premature until completely comfortable with their ‘feelings’. Rather than ‘serving’ the Lord, ‘loving’ Him is the preferred experience.
Works is naive to Grace; Grace voids works. While faith operates independent of and is superior to feelings, ‘feeling’ secure in Christ is superior to any faith wrongly placed in ‘doing’.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Kind of an odd thing, MJ, grace has always struck me as a masculine concept. Believe it or not, many women can be so performance oriented themselves, so you must constantly earn grace, earn favor in their eyes. Men while focused and busy are not necessarily motivated by a need to earn favor.
Ultimately one of the beautiful things about faith is how complementary it is, how whole the male and female becomes,the perfection and harmony that shows up when you have that beautiful balance going on. One could almost say we were designed for just such a purpose. So I don’t think you could extract one or the other, kind of like the way God is One in 3 parts.
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Rollo Tomassi said:
A little more light reading you may like:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/worldview/why-you-should-be-christian-feminist
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/worldview/5-ways-bible-supports-feminism
https://www.bustle.com/articles/173684-im-a-christian-feminist-because-jesus-loves-women-and-we-should-too
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/worldview/what-does-it-look-be-christian-feminist
Of course the reflex response will be, “well, those aren’t ‘real’ Christians”, but this is the rationale you will find in mainstream churchianity. Then you’ll say, “well, that’s just cultural, the faith exists apart from the social undercurrents”, to which I’ll say the reason we had the schism between Catholicism and Protestantism is EXACTLY the social undercurrent informing the faith. When feminine-primacy puts asses in the pew and keeps the lights in the church on, you will see faith reinterpreted to accommodate a social undercurrent. If culture didn’t inform faith you would see far fewer ‘franchises’ of Christianity today.
The Holy Spirit has been supplanted with the Feminine Imperative ladies. And you never saw it happen.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well let’s see, “Male and female equally reflect God as unique persons; neither is superior. When we treat others with dignity, we value God’s image in them. Mistreating others is mishandling God’s masterpieces”
Sounds like radical feminism to me. What heresy! Obviously the only proper red pill Christian perspective is to treat women as if they aren’t even people as all, certainly not made in God’s image, lacking souls, unworthy of dignity, permanently cursed by hypergamy.
Sorry Tomassi,not only is your red pill Christianity not Christianity at all, your masculinity isn’t masculine either. On the bright side, Violet my little feminist atheist buddy above, she’d be quite pleased with you. You validate her world view and her negative perceptions of men.
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Rollo Tomassi said:
There you go again, it’s always a binary extreme for any counterargument isn’t it? All you’re doing is dodging.
So I guess the ‘future is female’ for the church too then?
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insanitybytes22 said:
I am not dodging, Tomassi. I believe there is some validity to the idea of the church feminized, and I have seen examples of that. But it is you who are binary, not me. Like you could not tell the difference between someone like me and someone like Violet. Violet for your info, has written a post, in which she does basically declare the feminine to be spiritually superior to the masculine and pretty much states that to be masculine is to reject Christ and His message.
“So I guess the ‘future is female’ for the church too then?”
I don’t know if you noticed, but it appears as if 53% of female voters in the US stepped into a voting booth and decided the future of the US was going to be decidedly masculine.
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Rollo Tomassi said:
I provide you with a well-reasoned premise, and I cite several sources to present how those premises are come to by the people who would reinterpret and restructure the religion you claim to hold so dear. Your response: presume a binary extreme I have never asserted in any essay.
Your dodge:
For someone so invested in her convictions I’d think you’d be commenting on those articles I posted and raising hell about their latent purpose. But no, you resort to silly extremes and bad debate tactics. Or is your lack of outrage because you put the Sisterhood before your religion as you’ve always done? Is it that you actually welcome feminism as an article, or would if the ‘Relevant’ women looked less like ‘Latte Liberals’?
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Your response: presume a binary extreme I have never asserted in any essay.”
You don’t have to assert it in an essay Tomassi, because you inadvertently teach it. Or at least, I like to believe it is inadvertent. I like to tell myself you just don’t understand, that you’re trapped in your own cognitive dissonance. I like to tell myself that you genuinely don’t make the connection between someone first perceiving women as rabid vermin, and how that might translate into field reports of rape and violence. I tell my self you just don’t understand these things, but I know I deceive my own self. I spin excuses for you Tomassi, where no excuse exists. I try to see redemption where it does not live and I come up short every time, because Christ is not within you, He has been supplanted by your red pill, and you now run about telling people the Holy Spirit has actually been replaced by the feminine imperitive and yet that isn’t true at all. It is Christ within you that has been replaced by something far darker and it’s heartbreaking to see and to watch and to be completely unable to do anything about it at all.
I cannot go fix those women for you Tomassi, because those women are not the problem.
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MJThompson said:
Rollo Tomassi- IB’s response was quite typical for this blog – the title “Insanity Bytes” should prepare every reader to observe posts & comments here with an appreciation of subtle sarcasm, humor, whit, and a ‘tongue-in-cheek’ awareness, mixed with a profound & amazing transparency on serious issues pertaining to her personal faith. I both commend her and applaud her reply.
If you’re looking for scientific debate among the ultra scholarly community that entertain accuracy of information ONLY when it AGREES with them – seek such fellowship with the rest of like-minded individuals (of whom there are many), but as IB rightly stated (although NOT verbatim) you are obviously at the very least agnostic, and probably atheist evidenced by your expressed ideology. When I hear the screech of tires &smell burnt rubber – I do not need to see the car that produced those effects.
Apart from the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit, spiritual reality cannot be properly comprehend or promoted.
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Citizen Tom said:
@insanitybytes22
Interesting post. Enjoyed it.
You may or may not find my comment on violetwisp’s post interesting.
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ECM said:
I should probably check out this book!
Oh by the way, hi Insanity 🙂 Long time. Hope you are doing well (its Emily btw.)
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