Do you hold to the idea that God is completely self sufficient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and doesn’t “need” us at all? I have or I still do to some degree, but my beliefs have expanded and evolved, which is a good thing. This sweet pastor used to say, “if your views are not growing you become like stagnant pond water and there is just nothing worse than a stinky Christian.” He said we all need to be wrung out sometimes, like an old stinky kitchen sponge that is trying to go sour.
I am laughing, that analogy really got my attention and was very convicting. Lord, don’t ever let me become like an old stinky kitchen sponge, so set in my ways the water of your spirit no longer flows through me.
First let me say, this is the language of relationships, not theology so much. Human people often struggle to communicate with one another when we are face to face. Men and women are notorious for arguing over “wants, needs, and desires”, and trying to discern the difference. To complicate matters, we often lack self awareness and have all these fleshly desires pulling at us. So to be “needy” is often seen as a bad thing, a sign of weakness or dependency. A sign of selfishness. A sign of being lower on the totem pole.
We human people tend to assign a hierarchy of worth and power and proceed to conclude that the one with the needs is weaker. We pride ourselves on our own self sufficiency and our rugged individualism. Therefore God who is Holy and all powerful cannot possibly have any “needs.” We falsely conclude if He were vulnerable in any way He would not be all powerful.
I happen to believe this perception is not really Biblical, it’s a man made misconception. I think the Bible is really good at turning our imaginary hierarchies on their head. I mean, “the first shall go last.” Or, “my strength is made perfect in weakness.” Or, “Blessed are the meek.”
One reason I started studying this issue more deeply is because things got a bit tedious for me in the evangelical world. There is an excessive amount of prosperity gospel and earned salvation going on, ironically neither of which seem to produce good results. I mean, we believe God has no needs, I’m the only needy one in the relationship, so paradoxically, now God seems to exist exclusively to serve me. We pray for His blessing upon our own plans we never even consulted with Him about, and we engage in an almost transactional exchange, pretending as if we can earn more of His favor through our own good works. Our prayers are often desperate and pleading and childlike, as if God were a miserly Father who must be coaxed into doling out tiny rations of goodness.
In contrast when you perceive God as having a need, it changes the whole script and now suddenly you exist to serve Him. In the beginning God created the world and us, so He had a need, perhaps a need for companionship, a family, a relationship, but regardless none of us created ourselves. He wanted, needed, or desired us. We exist to fulfill His needs, not our own. Ironically this attitude also tends to make us much happier, more joyful, almost as if we were deliberately designed for it. Designed for what? Fulfilling His needs! Why have we been created? For the glory of God, right?
We were not made exclusively for our own glory.
We know that God has needs because we can actually grieve the Holy Spirit. Our behavior impacts Him. Jesus wept! Being vulnerable is not the same as being powerless or weak, although on the human end of things it sometimes feels that way to us. Feelings however are not always “truth,” right? Jesus came and certainly made Himself vulnerable, not in an act of weakness, but in an act of power like the world has never seen.
I think this is what the Apostle Paul meant when he said, “I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.”
Notice how Paul starts right off by pointing out, “I am not saying this because I am in need“
I also think this is what the Bible means when it says,” Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?”
The more I’ve turned to God and let Him heal me, let Him fix my heart, let Him fulfill my needs, the more I’ve come to realize, I actually don’t have any needs of my own. The desperation is gone, the fear is gone, the hunger is no longer there. I don’t have to try to earn His favor, it’s a given, a done deal. I no longer have to try to pour things into my soul to try to satisfy all my own needs, wants, and desires. The Bible says, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” That happened a few thousand years before I was even born, so I clearly had no hand in it, nor can I earn it after the fact. God has a desire, a need for me to be born, a need for me to be saved, and a need for me to try to reflect some of His goodness out in the world.
All in good humor here, but I also know this is true because in spite of my best efforts to thwart God at every turn, here we are today doing just that. His will is always going to prevail, not my own. The fact that God might have needs does not make Him weak or more vulnerable at all, in fact, it makes Him stronger and more powerful. Also, more logical, more consistent, and more ordered. That’s hard to explain and of course I am just a human, so this stuff is much like trying to download watermelon ideas into a pea brain. All I know for sure is that God needs me here for a reason, God needs me to serve Him in a million little ways, and my own needs are so well sustained by Him, that I needn’t worry about having them at all.
Silence of Mind said:
IB, God created man so that a physical, finite being could experience his infinite glory.
Such is not a need, but an expression of infinite generosity. Generosity is an attribute of abundance, not need.
God, by definition is infinite. So all of his attributes are infinite: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, all-abundant. If God had need, then he would be all-needy, which cannot the case.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, I think I have addressed that when I said, “We falsely conclude if He were vulnerable in any way He would not be all powerful.” And also, “We pride ourselves on our own self sufficiency and our rugged individualism.”
I believe we are genuinely blinded by our own pride in a way that prevents for even hearing what the Bible has to say about strength, weakness, and needs, and as a result we are living in a relationally dysfunctional world where we can’t even admit we ourselves might have needs. We think that to become “like God” means to become all powerful, non empathetic, and detached from the world around us.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, You post contradicts itself. It isn’t possible to cover self-contradiction. God is what he is, and ain’t what he ain’t.
God ain’t needy.
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insanitybytes22 said:
If God has no needs than neither do you. You become a self contained, omnipotent being, with no empathy for anyone but yourself, made in the image of the God you have fashioned in your own imagination.
That’s not God.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, You wrote: “If God has no needs than neither do you. “
The refutation of that statement is as follows:
All creatures need to eat, excrete, reproduce, need a livable environment, etc. God has no needs because he is infinite. If God “needed” then he would be infinitely needy which is inconsistent with God’s nature. This inconsistency is how your post contradicts itself.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Actually if you want to get technical about it, I do not need to eat, breath, reproduce, or even live. God needs me to do those things. God designed me, God placed me here, and God created those conditions to sustain life. God also supplies those things in order for me to be here. It is not my will at work here, it is His.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, You wrote, “Actually if you want to get technical about it, I do not need to eat, breath, reproduce, or even live. God needs me to do those things.”.
The refutation of your statement is as follows:
If God needed us “us to do those things,” then nobody would ever die.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, I assure you, the moment God no longer needs a person to do those things, we die. So it is His will that sustains us.
Also, it does seem to be His will that we receive eternal life, so in theory once we leave the body we do not actually die.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, the notion that we die because God no longer needs us is pure crap. You should be ashamed of yourself. My Goodness, what happened to you?
You’ve always been loopy, but you’ve gone off the deep end on this one.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Your patience, grace, and never ending slew of kind words are the spiritual fruit produced by believing God has no needs and is totally self contained and separate from us.
God always needs us, desires us, wants us, but sometimes He deems our season of life to be finished and so He goes right on needing us but on another plane of existence. “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
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ColorStorm said:
Having trouble placing this comment, but disagree vehemently with SOM/ and C Tom/ regarding observations:
1- Silence says ib22is atheist? Where is the laugh button.
2. Tom says Som is a smart fellow, AFTER S says ib is atheist???
Yeah oh, ask ARK , and Skykd and all others if she shares the same campfire. The good lady certainly does not need my endorsement, as her blog has been legendary in obvious content speaking clearly for the one true living God, which NO atheist can do.
My spiritual sensitivities are pretty good, and I can smell foul meat from 50 miles, or even across continents.
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Silence of Mind said:
Storm, You believe the earth is flat. Idiots don’t get to criticize anyone.
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ColorStorm said:
Hi silence, yes, I believe the earth is stationary, just as it appears, just as it is, and just as nature and heaven testify, but that’s not this post .
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Silence of Mind said:
Storm, I teach astronomy from the ancient Greeks through Ptolemy, from Ptolemy to the Copernican Revolution, and from there to Galileo.
It has been known for centuries that the earth revolves around the sun. It has been known for millennia that the earth is a sphere.
We disgrace ourselves with ignorance. Let me help.
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ColorStorm said:
Well now, coming from one who considers our host atheist, I appreciate the compliment as idiot.
( btw, it’s embarrassing to have to rely on the ‘ancient Greeks’ to tell us where we live. ) if it works for you, go for it.
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Silence of Mind said:
Storm, The ancient Greeks built the foundation of the great civilization in which you have lived all your life.
The achievement of the ancient Greeks was their use of trigonometry and geometry in their discoveries.
Many of my students are embarrassed by their inability to understand trigonometry and geometry. But that’s okay. They have all year to learn the material.
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Citizen Tom said:
ColorStorm
I said Silence is smart. I did not say he is wise. Wisdom is much more rare and much more difficult to evaluate.
For example, you attack Silence’s intellect, and he points to your flat earth ideology. No doubt we can find what seems to be flawed wisdom in anyone. So, who is to judge except God?
The wise know that only our Creator is truly wise. We are only wise when we copy and adhere to the wisdom and teachings of our Creator, as best we can.
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ColorStorm said:
Hi Tom, Tkx/
We use that word ‘attack’ when it’s only a strong disagreement.
Surely u agree that IB is no atheist. So I’m sure my strong argument is justified. You are right though, ‘smart’ vs. wise . Good distinction.
I’m afraid far too many believers are too narrow minded- I proved God had a need. This proves IB was correct also.
God does not will that any perish. This proves God has wants. This proves Ib was also correct. People need to get out of their tidy boxes and get and see the world.
And I am correct when I say I don’t ‘need’ math formulas to prove where I live that cannot be explained to a child. It is not the creators way that people are at the mercy of other peoples lectures.
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Citizen Tom said:
ColorStorm
There is a distinct difference between the words “want” and “need.” God clearly has things He wants from us. God also seems to be self-sufficient, meaning He doesn’t have any needs outside of Himself.
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ColorStorm said:
Yep. God WANTS us to be wise……..He wants us to drink…. And if we refuse? The rocks will speak instead. Sad story.
But pretty much drawing attention to the crazy opinion of SOM re. the character assassination of our lady friend.
Not a wise comment. Stupid even. Should Thomas be written off because he asked for proof? Or Peter because he denied the Lord? We think waaaaay too much of ourselves, and this is shown when we deal with various points of view.
I think ibs post are thought provoking and the comments reveal much about ourselves too.
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Citizen Tom said:
Agreed!
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Doug said:
There’s talking rocks now?
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ColorStorm said:
Doug- ask and ye shall receive:
For context, some people chastised others for their praise, and the Lord said:
‘ I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.’
Quite a statement that nature answers when men are mute.
( Luke 18 btw)
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Doug said:
Ah.. I see. A metaphor. I was hoping for an excuse for my tinnitus.. like all the rocks in the backyard were talking at once, or something.
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ColorStorm said:
I HEAR ya. lol
That’s some music in the ears that’s not always pleasant…..
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Doug said:
Thanks to marriage, I’ve honed my skills in selective listening to much of the “bells toiling for me”.
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Silence of Mind said:
Great Lion, You all are fine. I am the one on the attack. And I really do need to tone it down because attacking is almost never a standard feature of persuasive rhetoric. And Citizen is right about me not being wise.
In fact, about 10 years ago I had a Saint Paul moment and saw my entire life in my mind’s eye for just a few seconds. It was so horrible that I fainted, went hysterically blind and received brain damage. I could not remember anyone’s name who was not immediate family. Can you imagine a classroom teacher who can’t remember his students’ names?
Many so-called Christians like IB are like fish in a Progressive, atheist pool of water. Nearly everyone is tainted with Progressive atheism because we all swim in the same pool. But some of our spirits and intellects are tainted more than others. We start thinking like atheists if we don’t realize what is happening to us.
I noticed that I was stinking of Progressive atheism when I started teaching at my Catholic classical high school. I’ve spent the last 2 years swimming in that pool of water getting my mind right.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I pray that the Lord fill you with His peace and bless you with good health, Silence.
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Citizen Tom said:
@IB
I think you are going to have a difficult time with this puzzle. Part of the problem is perception. What do we know about what motivates the Creator? We were made in His image. We have needs, wants, and desires, but how does that compare to God’s needs, wants and desires? Does He need, want, or desire anything from us? He says He does. He commands us to love Him. But does He actually need, want, or desire love from us that He did not have before He created us? God is eternal and unchanging. We are not.
Let’s think about what you said here again.
Is whether we love God important to Him? He gets angry when we don’t love Him. So, I suppose it is. Is that anger caused by an unfulfilled need, want, or desire on God’s part? Or is it because when we don’t love God we harm ourselves and thus make what God has created defective? When we don’t even understand why God bothered Himself to create anything, who knows. All we know is that God wants us to love Him, and it is better when we do.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“He gets angry when we don’t love Him. ”
Oh goodness, I wish I could dash that nonsense upon a rock somewhere and drown it in the sea! God as this harsh father who forces us to obey and gets angry when we don’t love Him is just a vile notion that needs to fall away.
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Citizen Tom said:
I wish a little laughter at ourselves could solve all the world’s problems, but we take ourselves far too seriously.
When someone we love persists in hurting themselves, we get angry. When we refuse to acknowledge the existence of God, He gets angry.
When a someone cheats on their spouse, that someone angers their spouse, and the Bible compares idol worship to adultery.
So, is God angry for our sakes or because we cheat on Him? In any event, we are better off pleasing Him by obeying Him.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”
So when we obey simply because we fear the wrath of God we are not allowing ourselves to be made perfect in love.
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Citizen Tom said:
IB
Read the passage carefully. Love casts out the fear.
The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God, not love. To deal with our fear of a Holy God first requires God to draw us to Him. Because it is not natural for us to put anyone before our self, we will not seek Him on our own. It is once we begin to know Him and trust Him (faith) that we begin to love Him.
Faith is a gift of God. Sanctification requires courage and difficult work on our part. It is during the process of sanctification that our love of God begins to grow and cast out fear.
Do any of us ever achieve perfect love? In this life? Well, perhaps in the next, but I doubt it. I suspect it is a good idea for foolish creatures to remember God is God, not me.
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insanitybytes22 said:
If God draws us near Him, which I believe God really does, than God has a need. God seeks us out Himself, He initiates the relationship.
We are also not saved by our own wisdom, therefore cultivating a fear of God is not necessarily going to make us wise or lead us to salvation.
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Citizen Tom said:
I don’t know why the Creator creates, but He does. I doubt He does it out need. Want? Perhaps. I doubt our language has the capacity to explain the matter.
Do we have to cultivate a fear the Holy? No. I think that is more a matter of acknowledging the fear exists and why it exists.
The fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom because that fear drives us to know and understand what we fear.
The fear of a Holy God is what drives Atheists and Agnostics to deny the existence of God. You have read the passage starting at Romans 1:18. The evidence of God’s existence is all around us, and it frightens us terribly, and the more we know the more it terrifies us.
Stone Age man lived in a world where bad things too often just happened. So, the Stone Age man found the idea of a Holy God who created everything nerve wracking and looked for other explanations. He looked for idols that could save him and help him explain his world.
The educated man of today knows we each sit upon a tiny planet soaring at high speed through the seemingly endless emptiness of outer space. Our sun is a nuclear furnace that will eventually explode. We live upon the only habitable planet orbiting our sun, and we could not long survive upon most of the surface our planet, which consists mostly of molten rock. Further, we know the only things certain in this life are death and taxes.
The notion that we are totally dependent upon a God who demands our unqualified love and obedience is the last thing anyone wants to hear, especially when we realize how helpless we are in this vast and unforgiving universe. Yet Creation is so beautiful when we can set aside our fear, and our Lord invites some of us to do so by putting all our faith in Him.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Sigh. If fear really is the beginning of wisdom, then I ask people to take a deep look into why they might fear the idea of God having needs of His very own.
Also Tom, being trapped in an unforgiving universe dependent on the demands of a tryrannical ruler who uses fear and wrath to force our unconditional love and obedience is precisely why people are atheists.
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Citizen Tom said:
The Bible says fear is the beginning of wisdom. You are a parent. You have seen how that works. We fear the things that cause us pain. Evil causes pain. God allows us to feel pain so that we might learn to discern the difference between good and evil, learn wisdom.
When we learn to love God and put all our faith in Him, we have nothing to fear because God is Good. He is a Holy God. God is not the author of evil, but He does permit it.
We are fallen creatures in a fallen universe. Isn’t that what the Bible says? Doesn’t God allow us to die? Is that not something to fear, unless we love and trust God?
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pkadams said:
First we must acknowledge his total and complete sovereignty and right to this sovereignty which can only happen when we acknowledge our own complete lack of entitlement to anything including his mercy and love. This produces humility and gratitude and submission and love for God because even though we DON’T DESERVE IT, He has provided a way for us to be loved through Jesus (God in the flesh). It’s mind boggling because our minds have been so corrupted by sin. God has no “needs”, only mercy and goodness and righteousness and power. He can choose to bestow merciful forgiveness on sinners because he is God. We can only do the same through his Spirit within us.
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Citizen Tom said:
@pkadams
Well put! I did not even think to mention humility or gratitude. If God needs our love, we have less reason to be humble or grateful.
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seekingdivineperspective said:
I have always thought of God as being Love, and love needs an object. I suppose He could love the angels, and there is certainly a unique bond of love within the Person’s of the Trinity, but God’s love is so infinitely, vastly, massively… (Well, you know..) Could it be that He “needed” to create several billion of us in His image to contain the spillover? 🤷
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insanitybytes22 said:
There you go! An infinite God needed somewhere to put all His infinite love that spills over. My cup runneth over. 🙂
Part of my beef here is that we know God is love, but then we insist on trying to pretend that love is impervious, distant, not vulnerable, and doesn’t take risks, hurt, or suffer. So “love” just becomes kind of a material thing and not a relationship or an experience that will cost us anything at all. Jesus so carefully showed us that love can cost you everything. To suggest God has no needs is a bit like saying, Jesus didn’t suffer.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, The concept of limited space from which to “spill over” erroneously applies the limitations of four dimensional time-space to God who created it.
God, who is infinite, is not subject to what he created. That he created us to need him does not mean he has any needs himself.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I’m curious Silence, what do you think would change if we acknowledged and recognized that God has needs?
I mean, some people are heavily invested in insisting that God has no needs at all and I wonder about what is behind that line of thought?
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Silence of Mind said:
You wrote: “I’m curious Silence, what do you think would change if we acknowledged and recognized that God has needs?”
If “we acknowledged and recognized that God has needs,” then we would believe that lies are true. IB, it would change everything catastrophically and fatally. Civilizations dissolve when lies become the truth.
Read your Bible. It says nothing about God having needs. It says everything about masquerading lies as the truth.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Interesting, because I read the entire Bible as a list of God’s needs, desires, and will, and than proceed to try to figure out how I can best serve His needs.
The only thing that will change “catastrophically and fatally,” is yourself.
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Citizen Tom said:
IB
I doubt you can find any scripture to back up your claim that God needs anything from us.
=>https://www.gotquestions.org/does-God-need-us.html
Our behavior seems to aggravate God more than anything else, but He is gracious and merciful, and the apparent fact that He does not need us makes His grace and mercy towards us all the more remarkable. We don’t deserve it.
God wants things from us, but He does not depend upon us for anything.
It is commonplace for people to say that God is love and to focus on that aspect of God’s character to the exclusion of all else. That LOVE interpretation of God may make considerably less frightening, but it also makes Him less just. God cannot and will not tolerate sin.
God is holy, just, omniscient, omnipotent, transcends this universe, is full of grace and truth, and so forth. This is why when people discover they are in His presence their first reaction is to realize how unworthy they are, not how loved they are.
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Silence of Mind said:
Thank you, Citizen. IB is impervious to common sense, basic definitions, and simple reason. Maybe a good does of the Bible can cure what ails her.
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Citizen Tom said:
@Silence
Has it occurred to you that you overdoing this a bit. We all make mistakes, and we all need correction. If we cannot discuss these things quiet deliberation, how is anyone going to correct us when we need it?
Each of us has a different perception of other people. Each of us has a different perception of God. With respect to God, IB emphasis seems to be the fact that God is Love. Love and obedience seem to be the only things we have to give our Lord, and we even obey God out of love. So, love is important and should be a big deal to us. Therefore, IB’s sensitivity to this characteristic of our Lord is not a bad thing, something perhaps all of us should imitate.
The difference be a want and a need is subtle, but real. Nevertheless, I think we all understand the difference. What I think IB is missing is the fact that our Lord does not need our love but still wants it indicates love has greater value to Him, not less.
Our Love for Him is apparently like a precious to jewel God. Even though He does not suffer if He does not have our love, this jewel, when He does have it, He finds something in it that gives Him pleasure and satisfaction. Can’t we all relate to that?
So, God seeks our love, and He even taught us how to love.
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Silence of Mind said:
Citizen, Atheists cannot be corrected because they are the sum of all things, the God of their own private hallucination of reality. My refutations of her nonsense are so others do not fall prey to her confusion.
Atheists posing as Christians must be rebuked.
Our once great civilization has collapsed because Christians think the war against evil is a sit-in, governed by the atheist ideas of equity, inclusion and diversity.
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Citizen Tom said:
@Silence
Silence, you are very smart fellow, but this is silly of you. IB is not an Atheist, and you are foolish to call her one.
If we want to understand other people, if we want to empathize with them, then we must consider the possibility that God has a higher regard for them than He does our self. Oddly, that might even include an Atheist that He intends to save.
A Christian is someone who God has saved. He may use one of us as His instrument, but He saves them, and it is up to Him to judge us. That includes who and who does not choose to save.
Even after we repent and turn to Jesus for salvation, we are unfinished works, and sometimes we will do or say something we should not. If we see another say or something we think Biblically incorrect, we should correct them gently.
When should we go farther and speak in anger. There is something called apostasy. IB has not even come close to that.
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Silence of Mind said:
IB, The Bible is a list of human needs. You’ve got it all backwards.
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alphaandomega21 said:
God needed to create in the first place. He can do with His creation as it pleases Him.
Anyway, Jesus is the Bread of Life. To make bread one must ‘need’ the dough!
The heaven Father ‘needed’ Jesus just as Jesus needed the Father. He would not have said on the cross “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” otherwise.
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Silence of Mind said:
Alpha, How do you know, “God needed to create in the first place?”
We can only know about God, what he revealed to us about himself.
I’ve explained this previously to IB, but she didn’t get it:
If God is infinite, then all his attributes are infinite. For example, all-knowing, almighty, all-good.
Thus, if God has needs, then he is all-needy. An all-needy God would be consumed by his own appetites, which cannot be the case.
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alphaandomega21 said:
Re – Alpha, How do you know, “God needed to create in the first place?”
Logic. If you read my other comments here that should help explain.
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Silence of Mind said:
Alpha, In my previous comment I refuted yours and IB’s claim that God is needy, with logic.
What you are doing is expressing a personal opinion as if it were the Gospel truth.
Have you ever studied deeply the philosophies of Plato and Aristotle?
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alphaandomega21 said:
You did not refute, you merely claim you did. So what about Plato and Aristotle? I thought that you have implied that if it doesn’t say so in the Bible then it isn’t true.
However that would ignore what the Bible says as Paul states:
“For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.”
And as Psalm 19 says (the COVID 19 Psalm):
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
Without speech or language,
without a sound to be heard,
their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
The creation tells us about the nature of God, God has revealed Himself there also.
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Silence of Mind said:
Alpha, If you haven’t studied Plato and Aristotle, you have no idea what logic is. But that’s okay because I refuted you and IB with simple common sense and the meaning of words. And you still don’t understand the depth and breadth of your heresy.
If you cannot comprehend my appeal to common sense and the simple definition of God, it is no wonder that you think your personal opinion is most mighty.
Perceiving one’s personal opinion as most mighty expresses the sin of pride, one of the 7 deadly sins.
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alphaandomega21 said:
What an arrogant, if not insolent, response. Still I see these anagrams in the name you have chosen.
“If insolence MD”
That is logical.
And you do like to condemn people.
“I life condemns”
But this is very concerning.
“In self-demonic”
I gather from your website you teach physics. What else do you do? It would be useful for readers to know a bit more about you, but your ‘About’ page still contains standard text for editing.
You seem to lack humour that’s for sure. I think you ought to get out more.
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alphaandomega21 said:
He certainly does love the angels, He loves all His creation. We exist in love because God is love and in whom we live and move and have our being. And love is enough.
Or an œuf!
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seekingdivineperspective said:
Lol. I used to teach French. I would tell the kids, “One egg is un oeuf.” 😉
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jeffw5382 said:
IB this is an excellent question. I realize that, in attempting to describe, spiritual things, our limited language, falls agonizingly short. I believe, God’s will is that, all would turn towards Him, and receive His Peace. We can merely use our human experience and words to try to relate what God may be in need of. I am thinking of the circle of Love, where it is given and received unselfishly. The better I am of receiving God’s Grace, I am better equipped to express it towards others, planting seeds in the soul’s of those that may feel the “Longing” and seek Him.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen, Jeff! I also believe it is God’s will that all would turn toward Him and receive His peace. In fact, it says just that in the Bible! God’s grace is also a very reflective thing, I mean we pour out what we ourselves have received. God’s grace is also really abundant so if we ever need more, we can always avail ourselves of Him.
LOL, and yes language is woefully inadequate when trying to speak of Divine things. 🙂
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ColorStorm said:
So this is helpful for such a charged topic, re. WORSHIP exclusively toward He that:
‘Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things…’
Certainly true, but we remember Babel in that heaven cannot be reached with bricks.
On the other hand, God in fact NEEDED He who knew no sin…….to be MADE SIN…… for us……
This was NECESSARY for God to justify sinful man. There was no other way, and such is the genius of heavens edicts.
( I do appreciate the back and forth of commenters, and much is revealed in how we carry our points. Good post msb)
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you, Colorstorm. Indeed, God did need “He who was without sin” to be made sin for us.
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
“Why have we been created?”
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Good point, Partnering. I would have to say, God has a need for a family, for people to admire His handiwork, or perhaps to share Himself with.
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Jack Curtis said:
Isn’t attribution of needs and wants to our Creator also an attribution of imperfection? Another of the inherent contradictions in Judeo-Christianity? Like a human who takes pride in his humility … Perhaps our limited horsepower simplu is incapable of Godspeed and we prosper most by gratitude and doing what we can with what we have been given?
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Isn’t attribution of needs and wants to our Creator also an attribution of imperfection?”
No. That is exactly what I am saying. The idea that God having needs somehow makes Him imperfect is false.
“Another of the inherent contradictions in Judeo-Christianity?”
LOL! No! It should not be a contradiction at all, but clearly some people seem to believe it is. 🙂
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Jack Curtis said:
I cannot seem to reconcile a being omnipotent and omniscient with one in need or want; it probably comes down at some point toselection of definations. Such is the nature of our remarkable language …
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alphaandomega21 said:
A creator wants to create, it is a need. If we want to create things but can’t it is frustrating. God our creator wants to create but He can and is not frustrated. As Isaiah 55 v.10-11 say
“For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.”
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alphaandomega21 said:
Very well said. God created the world, its creatures etc. plus all the heavenly bodies, the ones in heaven and on the earth of course ;), for His pleasure. I mean, wouldn’t it be boring for Him otherwise?
After all in the beginning God had a light bulb moment and the rest is history or, as I like to put it, His story. Telling stories is what He likes best and we are all part of the greatest story ever told, the Book of Life.
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insanitybytes22 said:
LOL, I will always remember, “the Bread of Life kneading us.” That made me smile.
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pkadams said:
After listening to this , I might change my stance a little closer to IB’s. https://youtu.be/gZ1i28X64e4?si=e7iJ44zwAoWxkDOE Basically what Ann said. God glorifies himself even more by loving his creation . Not like a human need caused by lack , rather an outpouring of his goodness .
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, there you go! The good rabbi explains it much better than I can, but yes, that’s it exactly.😊
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The Night Wind said:
I don’t think you’ll convince any of these Churchians who’ve been weaned on the Prosperity Gospel that God can be anything other than the Supreme Alpha (or Sigma if they follow Vox Day) who has any ‘need’ of anybody or anything. Self-sufficiency and self-righteousness are virtues with these types so naturally they will project those characteristics onto God.
I think to clarify it, what we understand as ‘need’ is more like ‘necessity.’ God, as I understand Him, and the Church Fathers taught, relates to us in terms of Will. St. John depicts Christ’s Incarnation, for example, as an Divine Emanation and that Divine Love is a reciprocal manifestation because God wills that it should be so. This is why Free Will is such a central concept to things. God doesn’t technically ‘need’ us in the sense that many understand the term: but He wills that we have a mutual and necessary relationship both with Him and our fellowmen, and His Will is perfect. When St. John also tells us that we should love one another as God loves us, that is a statement with a very profound implication. We don’t do it because God commands it; we do it because He wills it, and we in turn will it in accordance with His Will. Note how many times in John’s Gospel Jesus refers to Himself as a force drawing us closer to God if we’re willing to do so.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I like how you’ve worded that. Well said!
I genuinely had no idea there was so much emotional baggage tangled up in concepts like, “need, necessity, will, or desire.”
I completely agree, all this prosperity gospel and superficial Western Christianity seems to have produced this illusion of a supreme alpha god where self-sufficiency and self-righteousness actually seem to be perceived as virtues. No wonder the world is such a mess.
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