Truthfully the only false accusation I simply cannot bear is against our Lord and Savior. Please do not present Him as a great cosmic child abuser, do not transform John 3:16 into, for God so hated the world, He tortured His own child in a fit of rage and wrath because he was so mad at us….
Don’t do that, don’t leave us trapped there in that weird place where we are forced to choose between what our spirits know is right, what our hearts know is true, and the Lord we so want to know. There should be no conflict between those two things and if there are, your hermeneutics have gone all awry.
In a world that works so hard to separate people from Christ, don’t add to their confusion. Don’t create that moral conundrum in their hearts and minds. It just crushes me to see things like that because it not only separates people from Christ, it slanders His good name. It is a false allegation, it is a lie.
Pastor Doug Wilson writes, “The word propitiation refers to the fist of the Father, striking the Son, so that you might be struck down in Him, and raised again to life in Him.”
I could argue theology all day long, I could spin tall tales in Wilson’s defense, I could provide cover and try to soften those words, try to say, what he really meant was, but in truth there really are no excuses, there is no misunderstanding happening here.
You are flat out falsely accusing our heavenly Father of being a rage filled child abuser swinging his fist at the purity and innocence of Jesus, His own son, and choosing to steal, kill, and destroy, a perfect being to get back at us for disappointing him. The message is clear, fear God or He’ll do the same to you.
It’s a dark and ugly notion and it’s really prevalent in the world, and I’m sure my words just fall on deaf ears, but this is so wrong headed, so wrong hearted, such appallingly bad applied theology that I just want to scream and tear my hair out. A lie like that will worm it’s way so far into your soul, it can take years to undo the damage.
And truth be told, I don’t fear for atheists as much as I do for Christians who hear this lie about their heavenly Father and try to call it Holy, try call it good, try to call themselves the righteous followers of a great cosmic child abuser who wrath filled fist allegedly smashed in his innocent child’s face and killed him.
Such a God would not be Holy, such a Father would not be good. Presented with a false dichotomy like that, the only moral option one could make is either atheism or heresy. To be the follower of such a God would be immoral.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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Thank you Vincent, much appreciated..
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You’re very welcome my friend 🌷😁
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YES! YES!!! You’re singing my song, IB! Pastor Wilson’s statement on the atonement here is just plain EVIL. There’s no other way to put it. Angry men projecting their issues on to God and calling it theology. It’s sick when you really dig into it.
And the trouble is, we’ve all been taught some level of this if we’ve been brought up in the evangelical West. And it’s probably done more to drive people away from God than any other misguided doctrine. There is SO MUCH wrong with this view that I had to do a whole series on it, over several years, and people still think I’m the one who’s not teaching correct doctrine. LOL! I guess most Christians only believe what they’ve been indoctrinated in. It’s sad, really, because it is so wrong.
The Eastern Orthodox call this idea of God punishing Jesus absolute heresy. One Eastern leader calls this view of the atonement “torture porn.” Seriously, it’s not at all what was taught for the first thousand years of Church history. I’m not Eastern Orthodox but they are dead right on this one.
It’s time we got the story straight. Thanks for your part in doing that. 🙂
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Thanks, Mel.
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Yes! This all-too-common theological view is an issue for me, as well. https://mitchteemley.com/2015/04/07/did-jesus-really-have-to-die/
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That was really well said, Mitch. Thanks for linking to it.
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“I don’t fear for atheists as much as I do for Christians who hear this lie.” I think the devil doesn’t spend that much time working on atheists – he’s already got them. But to twist theology and lead Christians astray – that’s what has him working overtime as the end grows closer.
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“Such a God would not be Holy, such a Father would not be good. Presented with a false dichotomy like that, the only moral option one could make is either atheism or heresy. To be the follower of such a God would be immoral.”
Well this is nothing new, because with all the death, destruction and immoral acts associated with God that are righteously justified by Christian double speak, therefore why does criticism of this particular hideous act make you react as you have?
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I know this teaching is wrong, I know it is immoral, and I know it slanders the Lord I love. It completely misrepresents Him and falsely accuses Him of something he did not do. I know this because I know Him, I know His ways and His words, I know of the love He has for us.
But what gives you your own definition of immorality? Why do you think it’s wrong? What standard does an atheist even use to measure?
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Does common sense and logic add up as a measure of morality work for you or not?
I treat people how I want to be treated, I do not have this yerning to kill anybody or steal from them because I understand it I would not like it happening to me, therefore my natural evolved emotions tell me I would rather be friendly, non-violent and honest.
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Common sense and logic as a measure of morality do not work for me, mostly because computers and machines can be incredibly logical and practical, but completely devoid of humanity. And humans have also rationalized great atrocities, justified our immoral acts, claiming reason was on our side.
I do wish everyone followed the golden rule, treated people as they wished to be treated, but if you look about the world at large, that has not produced the fruits it should. We still have wars and greed, people mistreating one another. It seems as if our “naturally evolved emotions,” left many people behind. Maybe we should tell them to “evolve already?”
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Isaiah 53 (prophesy of Christ 700 years before he was born that only the most egregious heretic would deny was the ease)
5-But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6-All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7-He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
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Jesus on the cross in the Gospel of Matthew 27:46 (caps as per the NASB translation committee_
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”
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The apostle Paul to the church at Galatia chapter 3
10-For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11-Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12-However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13-Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
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2nd Corinthians 5:
21-He [God the Father] made Him who knew no sin [God the Son] to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
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Colossians 1:21-22
21-And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22-yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
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The apostle Peter quoting from Isaiah 53 (above) so we couldn’t miss it:
“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed”
The whole bloody Levitical system of animal sacrifice and encoded law revealed through Moses, was one long nonstop illustration of the futility of any effort on our part to satisfy the holy and perfect wrath of God. This is abundantly and unassailably set forth in the whole of the New Testament (in His blood according to Jesus own words) and especially in the letter to the Hebrews where the writers’ entire thesis is EXACTLY penal substitutionary atonement.
The willing sacrifice of the innocent for the guilty, and being innocent Himself, death could not hold Him. When he stepped forth from that tomb, having defeated death and the grave in His own death, he brought all of His people with Him. Which is what the angel told Joseph was the point of His incarnation as a man.
Matthews’ gospel chapter 1
18-Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19-And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20-But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21-“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
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Just watch what these people will do sklyjd to try to get out of what I’ve just said (and there’s plenty more) Don’t let em get away with it. As much as I’ve always liked Gabrielle and cared about her as a person, she couldn’t argue theology with a 2nd grade Sunday school student in a decent church. Neither could any of the rest of the regulars around here, no matter what they try to say about their so called credentials or anything else..
Like I say. Watch. Watch how they try to deny what has been recognized as Gospel truth for 2000 years.
Take these scriptures I’ve brought to some authoritative figure in the Eastern Orthodox Church and watch them do the same things.
See, nobody needs to be “separated from Christ:” as Gabrielle puts it. EVERYbody already is. The only solution is exactly what I’ve been talking about and which is exactly what these people deny.
If you’re going to reject the truth as it is in Christ Jesus as He has himself revealed it in the ancient Christian scriptures, go ahead. Most people will. (Jesus Himself said exactly that too). But you won’t find it here.
I promise you sklyjd. If you hear anger or self righteous holier than thou condemnation in what I’ve said, you are very wrong. You just can’t know how deeply
my heart is broken 😦
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“Just watch what these people will do sklyjd to try to get out of what I’ve just said (and there’s plenty more) Don’t let em get away with it….”
My first clue that something is terribly wrong is when my Christians align themselves with my evangelizing atheists and start to demonstrate a camaraderie of ideology and doctrine. Than they come together as a tag team and accuse me of heresy.
So, sklyjd falsely believes God condones slavery, murder, and child abuse, and rightly makes a moral determination to reject such perversions. Then people like Pastor Wilson and Trib come along and praise him for his alleged great understanding of the Lord and scripture.
Such things don’t just break my heart, they make me feel sick to my stomach, confused, frustrated by the complete lack of self awareness, and horrified that the Lord I love is being so grievously slandered, falsely accused of condoning evil.
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I’m always amused msb at the lengths believers go to lecture other believers who have not apparently arrived, and siding with unusal allies. Its almost like watching Herod and Pilate extend a feigned friendship and untimely confederacy because they have in common a more suitable target, when usually, they would have no use for each other.
At least Pilate washed his hands of the matter, but the voice of the mob was too much. If I could only add one distinction: The citing of the 22nd Psalm was not uttered by a man who did not know WHY He was forsaken by God, but because He did………..the drinking of scripture quenched His thirst instead of water which did not. And any Godly Jew with half an ear would perk up upon hearing this: according to the scriptures.
So while He was made sin, still, in this, He was the Father’s delight, for even now, He ALWAYS doeth those things which please the Father. And you are correct to point out the difference God and the Father; both one of course, but a different relationship; as I like to say, even the wife in the courtroom would not dare call the judge ‘dear,’ or even by his first name, The higher relation supercedes THERE.
We should pay attention to scripture and its nuances; it would serve us well, but most sober minded thinking believers surely know that a false accusation tossed your way is only that, false, and you should thank they for the compliment. 😉
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Amen, Colorstorm! Love that 22 Psalm. Not long ago a pastor taught me the connection to be found there and I was delighted.
This thing about some believers aligning themselves with the false beliefs of atheists, ai yi yi. I’ll let you know when I figure that one out.
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Isaiah 53
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
You know Memi, every time I notice people getting in a dust up about their different understandings of the meaning of God’s Word, I always go back to God’s Word, and see What God said Himself.
“Propitation” seems to translate as “atoning sacrifice”. We are often taught that Old Testament Temple sacrifice was a visual aid as a means for people (us) to keep in mind that the sanctification of our sins comes at a steep cost. A cost paid by the innocent, and Holy. Since God is the only One who is Holy, God has to pay the cost for the atonement of our sins. And we do know that death is the penalty for sin, always.
The symbolic visual aid of an innocent lamb being slaughtered, and our sin debt being slaughtered with the lamb, I think is meant to show us the magnitude of the injustice and brutality that our sin causes.
In any case, do you think that God’s Words in Isaiah 53, are even stronger than Wilson’s interpretation of 1 John 2:2?
I do think Isaiah 53 is stronger Wording, and as always, with God, a means to a good end.
Hope you are well! It sounds like you are. ; – )
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I am not getting in a “dust up over different understandings,” I am flat out declaring that this is a false and evil interpretation of scripture, one that does a great deal of harm in the world and slanders the truth of God’s good nature.
I fully reject the idea of the Father punching His precious son with His giant fist of rage, as if the Father and Son where two separate people, one a wrath filled child abuser, the other an innocent victim. That is a lie. It’s also not theologically supported and violates several doctrinal principles.
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Genesis 22
9 When they arrived at the place that God had told him about, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac[b] and placed him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son.
11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
He replied, “Here I am.”
12 Then he said, “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” 13 Abraham looked up and saw a ram[c] caught in the thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. 14 And Abraham named that place The Lord Will Provide,[d] so today it is said: “It will be provided[e] on the Lord’s mountain.”
Well Memi, let’s just say that “The Lord Will Provide”, as He has, a sacrifice for our sins. And be thankful.
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Amen.
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Well said.
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I wish I had context for what Pastor Wilson said. The quote in your post doesn’t sound to me as a re-writing of John 3:16.
Paul says plainly in Romans 5 that we are saved from God’s wrath: 8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.” But the context of God’s wrath, interestingly, is His love for us. It’s as if the wrath toward sin, which we should bear, and the love which He has for us as His creation, are doing a tug-of-war.
Atheists say justice and mercy can’t co-exist. God showed they can and do co-exist in His nature. He is just, so He hates sin, and those who embrace sin make themselves His enemies. Which is really all of us until God gives us a new nature.
We can’t become His friends without His intervention, without Him reversing our dead nature. Which He did by miraculously allowing Christ to stand in for us. Hebrews 2 says, “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.” Jesus tasted death for those of us who deserved God’s wrath.
Maybe the question is, did God turn His wrath on Jesus instead of on us?
I supposed that’s one way to look at it. But the truth is, God IS one just like you points out, IB, so what does “God turning His wrath on Jesus” even mean?
I’ve heard some people accuse God of committing a kind of suicide. These ideas come up short because we don’t understand the nature of the Trinity. What did Jesus mean when He said, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? How can God forsake God? How can God die?
Seriously, we are trying to untangle things I don’t think God intended us to untangle. He simply is not like us. So He can sacrifice His Son and still love His Son. I mean, look at that Hebrews 2 passage again: Jesus actually was crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death. Does that sound like something an angry God would do? But would a loving God let His Son experience the suffering of death?
Again, we’re trying to untangle what it means for God to be JUST and at the same time loving and merciful. In other words, we are trying to understand the inscrutable nature of God.
We can’t deny God’s wrath. We can’t deny Christ standing in as our substitute. But we can’t conclude that this makes God into a child abuser. That’s making God’s nature out to be just like ours. If a human threw his son under the bus in the hopes that the driver would stop in time to keep the bus from falling off a cliff, we would likely still treat the father as anything but kind and loving.
That’s us. That’s not God. We simply can’t understand His own inner working as a tri-unity. God gave us His Son, but the Son is God. So in what way did God not actually die Himself for us?
It’s enough to give anyone a headache for trying to sort it all out. Because God is simply higher that we in His thought, His nature, His plans, His sovereignty, His knowledge, His wisdom . . . well, pretty much in every way.
I think we need to be careful that we don’t anthropomorphize God so much in our efforts to understand Him, that we make Hm guilty of our evil nature.
First we need to affirm God’s position as sovereign and His nature as transcendent. After that, we can try to understand Him, knowing that any confusion is on our part, not His.
Becky
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The idea of God sacrificing his son is no worse for those ancient bronze age people than the multitude of deaths he and others created in the Old Testament.
God was sacrificing Jesus for the sins of mankind, but why was sacrifice required? The logical question, is why would a loving and most powerful God need to sacrifice his own blood or anyone else’s and to what purpose does this have to save mankind?
Forcing a decision on people to love God or go to hell would be counteractive to his demeanour if he is everything good, and because he of all people would know that love is something that comes naturally, you cannot make someone feel the things you’re feeling.
The concept of sacrifice is horrific; however it is clear God and his followers were quite apt at dealing out death to all and sundry and the undertaking of sacrifice held some influence in the time of Jesus and people took notice, however todays attitudes are vastly different as are our morals regarding the taking of human and animal lives.
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@sklyjd
Pastor Wilson seems to preach from the same Christian faith tradition I adhere to these days, Reformed Christian. However, his emphasis on God’s wrath strikes me as a bit overblown. God’s wrath is against sin, something that hurts His creatures. The Father loves His Son.
Romans provides the best explanation we have of Christian theology. In the beginning of Romans 8 we learn that God sent His Son. He did not strike Him. The Father sent His Son. God provided the sacrifice. In our sinfulness we conducted the sacrifice, and the One sacrificed forgave those who sacrificed Him.
The Parable of the Wicked Tenants (Luke 20:9-18) tells us something about how Jesus saw Himself. It also explains the fate of those who reject Him.
Why was the sacrifice needed and necessary? Because justice is a difficult concept, we seek wise judges. Which of us has the wisdom to discern what price Mankind, each of us, should pay for our sins. Who is so wise? None of us.
God is just, and He is our Creator. Because He loves us, He took our sins upon Himself. Because we are just sheep, we don’t understand exactly what He did or how He did it, but we do know He did it. Is faith required to accept His sacrifice? Yes, and repentance.
In his first sermon, given on that first Pentecost, the Apostle Peter explained what was required –what was sufficient — even for those who crucified Jesus. Thank the Lord that all that is required from us is faith. Without Jesus covering our sins, we would have no cause for hope.
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Steve, I don’t expect you to understand God’s sacrifice. I mean you don’t even read the Bible, let alone believe it, so how can you know why God needed to step in and do for us what we can not do for ourselves?
You said, <>. That’s actually not true if loving God is the very best thing for us. I don’t know if you have kids or if you had parents who made you do things when you were little that you didn’t want to do. I did. So I held my mom’s hand when I crossed the street long after I thought I was old enough to cross alone. I didn’t run with scissors, I ate my vegetables, I went to bed at bedtime, and so on. Why? Because my mom and dad hated me? Just the opposite. They loved me.
So, too, with God. He knows that life here and life for eternity is better lived in harmonious relationship with Him. Why wouldn’t He warn us about the dangers of going on our own, of turning our backs on Him? I mean, if He loves us, that’s the least He should do. The most would be to step in and rescue us when we mess up, which He’s also done.
Interesting that you find the idea of sacrifice, horrific. If only Adam and Eve had understood the horrors they would unleash by their rejection of and disobedience to God! At least you agree with God that death is something to avoid. Unfortunately, the disobedient pair didn’t fear death or didn’t believe God was serious enough or thought that going their own way was better and worth paying the price of introducing death into the human experience. Whatever their motivation, it’s clear that death and sin and corruption in the world lands at their feet, not God’s. But again, you’d have to read the Bible to learn this, and so I understand why you’re ignorant about it, Steve. It’s just too bad that your rejection of God has become so hardened that you are willing to believe lies about Him instead of investigating to learn the truth.
Becky
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The sad thing is that sklyjd is just repeating what Pastor Wilson has said, what Trib and Adad have said on this very thread, what so, so many Christians are falsely preaching and teaching, and it indeed is morally incongruent, it is ethically illogical, it is not representative of a Holy God.
I can come along until the cows come home and try to explain to people like sklyjd that “God is love” but he has no reason to believe me and my words will just fall on deaf ears. He has dozens of Christians preaching about this God of wrath who hates us so much, He tortured His own innocent Son in an act of vengeance. Sklyjd has dozens of Christians validating his own false perceptions. I guess I should probably now call him “a believer.”
Sklyjd rightly wants nothing to do with such a god, but more importantly He wants nothing to do with those who would follow such a God. And he is right about that part.
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As a child, I heard that we were created in the image and likeness of God, though obviously stripped of many of His features. A lot of us seem to want to see Him as created somehow in the image and likeness of us instead. Again, stripped of many of His features. Such a homocentric analysis of Deity resembles explaining the universe using only what we have learned studying planet Earth … Seems we like to do a lot of that sort of thing …
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