Sometimes I fancy myself a fine Corinthian lady, perhaps bejeweled and elegant with braided hair, perhaps a former pagan priestess, a recent Christian convert married to someone who does not yet share her faith.
Or I could well be a lady of another church, one who will not cover her hair, one who sows seeds of disharmony and resentment, surrounded by women with no hair at all who are veiled and plainly dressed, perhaps grieving, perhaps living in poverty, perhaps former prostitutes, likely also recent converts.
I should also mention that it appears as if I suddenly have 16 husbands…..
Well, really only five husbands this week, because I have only been whacked upside the head with Ephesians 5:22, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord” five times this week from random strangers, which compels me to wisely not quip, “excuse me, but are we even married??”
And of course there is always 1 Corinthians 14:34, three times this week, “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.”
I jest a bit here about being a fine Corinthian Lady, but for goodness sakes, context is everything and the importance of reading those words in the spirit in which they were written, in the context they were intended, is so important. Does anyone ever read something and ask “who, what, where, and why” anymore? Perhaps not.
Also, I have wisely chosen not to quip, “ya know, there’s a whole book written around those two passages, and many, many more words of scripture you might consider reading. They supply the context! ” To be honest here, I can think of nothing sadder then someone who knows only Wives, submit yourselves, especially a man, because if that is not the surest way to deprive yourself of all wisdom and understanding, I don’t know what is.
See there’s this thing about wives submit, it is actually out of your hands, it is between her, her husband, and God, it has very little to do with you. You can of course, run around trying to whack women over the head with that one until the cows come home, like so many on the internet try to do to me, but it will avail you nothing. In fact, it does more harm then good.
Even more harmful is to run about declaring “Women should remain silent…” Speaking is kind of like a life line for women, words are important, having a voice matters to us. Telling women they must be silent always would be a bit like me declaring husbands are mandated to be celibate always. Also, that phrase is often horribly out of context. Are we even in church?
These things entertain me, I find them a bit amusing, I know exactly what’s happened when someone starts preaching 1 Corinthians 14:34 or Ephesians 5:22 to me. I’ve either bumped into a red pillian or someone who is angry at women in general. Let me tell you it is like walking face first into a wall too, there is no chance for communication at that point. I am trying to speak to someone who cannot and will not even hear me.
There’s a darker side to all this however, those snatches of scripture taken out of context often drive women away from faith. Should they? Of course not, but they do. They do. For some people you are the only bible they will ever read, you are representative of what faith means to them. To make matters more complicated, there are people who have been spiritually abused in the world, who know what scripture misappropriated looks like. If all I ever knew of Jesus Christ was encapsulated in those two pieces of scripture, I myself would have quite rationally, run in the other direction.
I love Paul’s words, I love the beauty of scripture, I love how marriage is used as a metaphor for Christ’s relationship with the church, I love what scripture teaches us about men and women, I love the entire concept of submission. I love wives submit, but also, love your wives least your very prayers be hindered. I am immersed in the wonder of The Word. I am not a feminist by any means, but I am not a complete moron either.
And a bit sadly, I am also not really a Fine Corinthian Lady.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
That’s great!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks!
LikeLike
Hahaha…I loved this Post! I kinds got hung up on the submission thing…so many people forget that men are to submit to God first because we are to imitate Jesus’ submission to the Father…then wives are to submit to their husbands as an example of their husbands submitting to God…likewise then, children are to submit to their mothers and fathers as an example of the wife’s submission to her husband and the husband’s submission to God as Jesus submitted to the Father in everything….
Submission is really an imitation of Jesus. Too bad people aren’t smart enough to get that…present company excluded, of course. 😉
LikeLiked by 5 people
Ha! That was well said. It really is a beautiful design. So many wives are trying to do it all, be it all these days, and really feeling emotionally overloaded. Than we tend to blame men and take it out on husbands. So in that context, to submit is really to lay down some burdens, to free ourselves of some emotional responsibility that doesn’t even belong to us in the first place. Kind of interesting, but many men respond positively to this, almost as if they were designed to. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
hrrm…must be something in their biological make up. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
irtfyblog,
…so many people forget that men are to submit to God first because we are to imitate Jesus’ submission to the Father…then wives are to submit to their husbands as an example of their husbands submitting to God…
Christian men are to submit to God. Does your use of “first” and “then” refer to the hierarchical order of submission, or does it mean you believe wives only need to submit to their husbands after their husbands first submit to God?
LikeLiked by 2 people
I do hope irtfy has a chance to respond, it’s a good question.
My two cents is that I have an issue with your words, “need to.” What men and women “need to do” and what they do do, are two different things. Need is totally irrelevant because need speaks to control, to mandated submission, and to that attempted moral plea bargain I often speak of, where we can point fingers at one another. A woman in Christ submits to Christ and than her husband regardless of his belief or non belief, and a man in Christ submits to Christ and leads, regardless of his wife’s submission. It doesn’t always work out, but the odds of it working out are more favorable if we each focus on our own relationship with Christ and not the behavior of our spouses.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I posted what I posted and it means what it means.
LikeLiked by 1 person
IB,
Let me explain “need to” from my perspective. I believe that a Christian husband needs to love his wife because he is commanded to do so. Of course, he may not do this, but God has mandated it, and the man needs to do it because he has chosen to submit to Christ as his Lord. In essence, I believe this is submission mandated by God for the husband. God is the one who is doing the controlling.
Well, irtfy responded, but did not answer my question. I will assume that she meant the husband must first submit to God, and then and only then is the wife to submit to her husband. That is an “attempted moral plea bargain”. That is, the wife will only submit to her husband when he submits to God first.
Yes, husbands can do the same “bargaining” by refusing to submit to God and loving their wives, because the wives aren’t being submissive to the husbands first. This behavior is not acceptable for husbands! Nor is it acceptable for wives! In Ephesians 5:22-33, Paul tells the husband to love his wife without any conditions. In the same way, Paul tells the wife to submit to and respect her husband without any conditions. There is no requirement that the other must first do the right thing.
As a side note, IB, it seems to me that you consistently use the word “then” when it should be “than”, and vice versa. Look at your usage of these words in this post and comments. This surprises me as you are generally very good with your grammar, spelling, etc.
LikeLike
“This surprises me as you are generally very good with your grammar, spelling, etc.”
LOL! Thank you for your kind words and for your vote of confidence. It does not surprise me at all that I often use “than” and “then” improperly. Those two words have always given me a hard time.
Irtfy is actually a guy with a powerful understanding of scripture and I think he did a great job of explaining it in his earlier comment.
I agree with what you’ve written, but the thing is, as men, men must focus on what men should be doing, on how to lead others through their own surrender to Christ. Men have incredibly power and authority there that women just do not have. So when we are speaking in general of how to fix a broken world, it begins with men submitting to Christ and picking up their authority. I can speak of submission until the cows come home, but that is a bit like expecting wives to lead from the bottom. It can be done in individual situations, wives can indeed win over husbands through our own behavior, but we cannot empower men in general and we can not save them. That is work that belongs to Christ, to the Holy Spirit. At best we are left to provide some encouragement and to not hinder that work, but there is no amount of wifely submission that can actually make it happen.
It has also been my experience that women who try to top from the bottom, soon grow resentful about the additional burden we wrongly place on ourselves, which creates contempt, which many have suggested is the leading cause of divorce.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Irtfy is actually a guy with a powerful understanding of scripture and I think he did a great job of explaining it in his earlier comment.
I wouldn’t have asked the question if the meaning was clear. You said it was “a good question”. He responded, but he didn’t answer the question.
I can speak of submission until the cows come home, but that is a bit like expecting wives to lead from the bottom. …. At best we are left to provide some encouragement and to not hinder that work, but there is no amount of wifely submission that can actually make it happen.
Submission is not “like” leading. It’s not even close. Wives submitting to their husbands would allow God to do His work in the husbands. I think you greatly underestimate the influence, whether positive or negative, a wife’s behavior has on her husband’s behavior! If a wife’s submission to her husband is so insignificant, it seems strange that it is it stated on three separate occasions in the New Testament [And, yes, significantly, on every occasion the husband is told to love or honor his wife, so he is also given expectations.]
I am reasonably certain we will never find out if wifely submission would fix a broken world. Occasionally, I do see encouragement for submission, for example, the “About” page on the Peaceful Wife blog is a great testimony of her experience and the changes that resulted in her marriage and their lives.
LikeLike
“I think you greatly underestimate the influence, whether positive or negative, a wife’s behavior has on her husband’s behavior!”
I think I’ve seen enough battered women to hear the deception and the danger hidden behind those words.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@OKRickety: Now, I shall ask you… Who are you that I should give any clarity to my initial statement? Furthermore, how do I know you will understand my words clearly and won’t misread or take out of context the message that I provide?
And even if you deem yourself to be someone who should expect clarification, is not the matter still left up to the one providing the clarification as to whether or not they discern your motives to be genuine?
With that said, if you were meant to understand the meaning of my statement, you would. Therefore, the reply, “I have posted what I posted, and it means what it means” was a sufficient and suitable response to your question.
LikeLiked by 1 person
IB,
I said: “I think you greatly underestimate the influence, whether positive or negative, a wife’s behavior has on her husband’s behavior!”
Your response: I think I’ve seen enough battered women to hear the deception and the danger hidden behind those words.
I am greatly aggrieved that there are husbands who beat their wives. That abuse is the responsibility of the husband. Wife beating is certainly opposite to the commands to Christian husbands to love and honor their wives, and treat them as their own body.
I think you believe a husband’s behavior has a great influence, whether positive or negative, on a wife’s behavior. Specifically, that wives will be more likely to submit to husbands who lead well. I cannot think of any reason why a wife’s behavior would not also greatly influence her husband’s behavior.
I have never personally seen a church “excommunicate” a member, nor have I been told of it by anyone I knew who had personally seen it. If churches were to do this per the Biblical teaching in Matthew 18:15-17, I believe that it would have a tremendous impact on Christian behavior. For example, if someone is having an affair and refuses to stop, then put them out of the church. Both the church and the community would be able to see that Christianity is willing to follow God’s commands.
By the way, I thought I had responded to irtfyblog’s comment (March 24, 2016 at 10:19 pm). Did you delete it? If so, I’m surprised in one way, but not in another.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I promise, I did not delete any comments. If you’re missing one, I am sorry. It doesn’t appear to have gone into spam.
Wives can and do greatly influence men’s behavior, but all things are simply not equal, there is a difference there. Often men will not or cannot listen to women, even women they value. Often children will look to the men too, not what they are saying, what they are actually doing. We often put men in leadership in the church for that reason too, not because they are better or smarter, but because they are men.
I actually agree with you about church discipline and how differant things would probably look if all we had was our local church and getting along with people there really mattered. Today people can travel great distances and shop around for what they want and when things get too challenging, we can just walk away.
LikeLike
IB,
Wives can and do greatly influence men’s behavior, but all things are simply not equal, there is a difference there. Often men will not or cannot listen to women, even women they value.
I am going to define listen to mean “pay attention to”, rather than “act on what someone says”.
I recognize that some men will not listen to women, but, for the life of me, I cannot think of a man who cannot listen to a woman.
I agree that “church shopping” is very easy. Christian discipline for restoration (my preferred description of the passage) would work best if all churches practiced it and also honored other churches’ decisions of “excommunication”.
Regardless, I will return to the principle that Christians (including churches and their leaders) are to submit to God and do what He wants, rather than what is convenient, practical, and uncontroversial. In this case, even if it doesn’t have the effect it should, any given church should still do it.
And, in the same vein, regardless of what is convenient, practical, or uncontroversial, husbands and wives are to submit to God and do what He wants: the husband to love and honor his wife, and the wife to submit to her husband.
Side question: Do you have any idea why your blog wants British spelling rather than USA spelling? For example, colour rather than color? Behaviour rather than behavior?
LikeLike
“…for the life of me, I cannot think of a man who cannot listen to a woman.”
Ah, yes, a rather typical opinion shared by many men that kind of reinforces my whole point. Often men cannot not even listen when we tell them they are not listening, and dismiss what we are saying in the very process of our saying it! No harm done, I am used to it.
I have no idea why my blog has suddenly gone British, but as with most things WP, sometimes you just have to go with it.
LikeLike
IB,
Ah, yes, a rather typical opinion shared by many men that kind of reinforces my whole point.
I think this may be a good example of how communication fails. I was thinking that “cannot listen” meant he was bound by an external authority to ignore what a woman says, and I do not know of that situation. I think you meant he could listen, but he doesn’t, whether voluntarily or because his psyche forces him to not listen. I have no doubt some men choose not to listen, but believe that ultimately men can change their subconscious to allow them to listen.
Since you did not address it, do you agree that Christians are to do what God wants, regardless of whether it seems reasonable to us?
LikeLike
“Since you did not address it, do you agree that Christians are to do what God wants, regardless of whether it seems reasonable to us?”
Yes absolutely. I’ve written many posts about the fallacies of human reason, about the limitations of so called rational thinking, about how easy it is for us to rationalize ourselves away from morality, in part because we cannot always see the big picture. So yes, we are to do what God wants regardless of how it “feels” or whether or not it seems “reasonable.”
LikeLike
“Wives, submit yourselves…” Five times this week? And it’s only Tuesday?
Atta girl!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ahh, thanks for the encouragement! I have been slacking off, but it’s only Tuesday after all. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amen! I’m with you. My hubby hates it when I submit too much…he wants my opinion and sometimes I just say, “whatever you say, dear.” And he hates it! He said we are partners and he cherishes my input. Imagine that. And i love it because I know he will be held accountable for how he treats me…and it’s all good!
LikeLiked by 1 person
“It’s all good,” I love that! My hubby also cherishes my input, although I did marry the stubbornest man on the planet and it really is good, because we are well matched.;)
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ve written about this issue, as well. The tragic thing is that there are women quite literally beaten to death over these misunderstood and misinterpreted Bible verses.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I almost feel like it is bad form for someone with my screen name to comment on this post… lmao.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ha! Cute, OM, but it’s always nice to see you, no matter the form. 😉
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you for the reblog 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
You’re very welcome!
LikeLike
I read scripture with the intent of giving God greater control over my life and gaining greater self control. There are those others who read scripture and then hurl it at others in an attempt to control others. That is spiritual abuse, pure and simple. The only way to keep an abuser from abusing is to not engage them. God is the only one who can change their hearts. Maybe someday, the scriptures they love to hurl will do a boomer-rang and smack them right between the eyes. We can pray and hope.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ha! I really like the boomer-rang image. That is perfect symbolic justice. May you be convicted by your own words, right between the eyes.
Sometimes people are just so awful, I feel compelled to pray that the Lord would kindly shelter them from the worst consequences of their own actions. Show them the same mercy He has shown me. I have to do that or else I’d be building a giant catapult and evicting some people right off the planet. 😉
LikeLiked by 2 people
God’s Word right between the eyes is pretty danged merciful.:-}
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Well, really only five husbands this week, because I have only been whacked upside the head with Ephesians 5:22, ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord’ five times this week from random strangers, which compels me to wisely not quip, ‘excuse me, but are we even married?’
When you read these words in Ephesians, do you ask “Excuse me, Paul, but are we even married?” Perhaps you consider it okay because Paul is an Apostle, not a “random stranger”?
As you should know, I did not use this scripture in specific reference to you or your marriage, but as a general observation on the state of marriage in the USA today. If you think it did relate to you, perhaps the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. I am fully aware that I am not your husband, and do not believe that you are commanded to submit to me.
‘Does anyone ever read something and ask “who, what, where, and why” anymore? Perhaps not.’
In fact, I don’t think that we disagree on what this verse says, but we may disagree on what submission means. Regardless, my usage in the context of the post (and I think you missed that context) does not prove that I am unfamiliar with its context in the Bible. Speaking of context, it is not limited to one scriptural book, but the entirety of scripture. Which is why I mentioned Colossians 3:18-19 or 1 Peter 3:1-7 (you didn’t include them in your litany of scriptures that have been used in comments this week).
“I am trying to speak to someone who cannot and will not even hear me.”
I think I identify.
LikeLike
” If you think it did relate to you, perhaps the Holy Spirit is speaking to you.”
LOL! Oh dear! I am so sorry, but I had forgotten all about you. That’s terribly impolite, but I just worked some very long shifts and your comments completely slipped my mind. This post really had nothing to do with you at all. So it may be that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking to you? You seem to be taking things I say personally and you seem rather disgruntled about what I say about both marriage and submission? I don’t know what to tell you, they both seem to be working rather well for me, so I must be doing something right?
LikeLiked by 1 person
IB,
I’m not hurt, but I am surprised that you had forgotten all about me. As part of our exchange on a previous post, you said ‘This just makes me want to cry in sheer frustration. I’m sorry, but you don’t get to preach “submit, submit, submit” and then when women do, turn around and try to claim “it ain’t my fault, she allowed it.”’ Based on that, I think it’s reasonable to suppose that your statements about men referring to Ephesians 5 would well have included me.
LikeLike
“Does anyone ever read something and ask “who, what, where, and why” anymore?” Get rid of Common Core in our schools to restore that, and other concepts. IMHO: We need more Margaret Thatcher’s. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ahh,but wouldn’t you make a fine Corinthian Lady IB?
LikeLike