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anti-feminism, blogging, culture, faith, insanitybytes, love, opinion, sin
Violet bumped into the manosphere and recently wrote a post called “love as a game – lurking in manosphere” It’s a relatively unbiased post and well done.
The manosphere is this large and diverse group of varied ideas and beliefs, so you can’t really cover the whole concept adequately in one post. As Violet herself says quoting wikipedia, the ‘sphere is, “a loose and informal network of blogs, websites, and internet commentators that focus on issues relating to men and masculinity, often in opposition to feminism or as a male counterpart to it.”
I’ve done a fair amount of reading and research and blogged about different aspects of the ‘sphere several times. That isn’t really what I want to address today, but rather some interesting comments and issues that came up at Violet’s place.
First of all, in some places within the ‘sphere, there can be some pretty vulgar, lewd, and graphic expressions of sexuality. Not all mind you, but some. I skim over much of that and it truly doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the toxic anger, rage, and hurt. The rejection, feelings of persecution, and self loathing. Toxic, that’s the only word I can think of.
Call me crazy, but I don’t find that kind of thing sexual, just sad and somewhat depressing. Many of the ‘spherians like to perceive themselves as predators seeking prey, gamers versus the gamed, women as sexual conquests, or like what some commenters in Violet’s thread have referred to as grim, gross, nastiness, appalling, losers, scary, disgusting, and filth.
Filth?? Wait, you mean like…sin? I’m laughing here, but keep in mind that most of Violet’s readers are mostly non believers who support anything consenting adults choose to do, including advocating for gay marriage, abortion, homosexuality, transgender issues, legalized prostitution, etc, etc.
I have to admit I had a bit of chuckle when I started reading comments about the alleged “filth” of the ‘sphere. Why, what makes this any different than any other kind of “filth”? If anything adults wish to do is just fine, why the sudden disgust about the ‘spherians? What makes one perversion something to be embraced and another to be viewed with disgust? Are you grading on a curve here and if so, what is the basis for your original standard of measurement?
I can tell you what causes me to react the way I do. Absolute truth. The contrast between what God intended for us, a perfect garden, true love, marriage, sexuality as intimacy, versus the complete chaos, confusion, and self inflicted misery we have created instead. It’s heart breaking. We have such beautiful potential as human beings and what we have done to ourselves and that original design is downright repulsive.
Sex apart from love, sexuality as our entire identity, men and women perceiving each other as nothing more than sexual commodities, love being traded in for manipulation, power, and control. Yuck! But that is simply the nature of the world. It doesn’t have to be, but it is.
We are people, created in His image, greatly loved, so I don’t like seeing us as the collateral damage of our own wounding and brokenness. How do I know this is brokenness? Because what many of those ‘spherians are trying to do is to pour things into the abyss of their souls, sex, control, women, wealth, power, the list just goes on and on.
Looking for love in all the wrong places. Actually, they don’t even believe in love, they believe in this thing called hypergamy.
What fascinates me is that so many of them really resent the object of their desire. What they seek, they also seek to destroy.
Why? I suspect because women eventually leave them feeling even more unfulfilled, unsatisfied, which naturally is entirely the fault of the last dozen women they pursued….and those who rejected them. Male solipsism, yeah, it’s a real thing in the world.
What much of the manosphere is actually selling is anger and sexual rage. What makes that message so seductive are the feelings of power that go along with anger and sexuality, combined with what CS Lewis once referred to as the inner circle, tribalism, perceiving oneself as a member of an exclusive group with secret knowledge. That is enticing and seductive stuff. They all play off of human biology and psychology and create a very marketable product.
I don’t wish to get myself into trouble here, but we currently have a certain political candidate alpha-gaming the crap out of the electorate and rather masterfully playing off of people’s repressed anger about geo-political events. It’s fascinating to watch, something I do with much wry humor.
Back to that “filth” however, what makes it “filth?” If man was not made in God’s image, if there is no absolute truth, if love is nothing more than a spray bottle of oxytocin, than what standard are we using to measure with?
I can’t answer that outside the context of God and love, not logically, not with any sound reasoning. Without those two inseparable concepts, I am unable to reasonably label something “filth,” or sin. Us living our lives as our higher selves, receiving the love God has for us is the ideal, anything that harms us and others and separates us from that Divine love, is undesirable, filth, sin.
Violet ends by saying, “I don’t believe there’s any such thing as ‘true unconditional love and happiness’, but there are basic positive and loving relationships to aim for, built on genuine attraction, mutual trust and respect.”
Why? In the absence of God and love, who cares about silly things like trust, respect, and love? In that world, the only thing that matters is your own attraction desires and since might makes right, game away.
One tiny problem Violet, we are the smaller, weaker sex, biologically more vulnerable and all those traditions, values, and ideals that once protected us as women, are being now being socially rejected and tossed aside. Outside of social mores, beyond dreams of chivalry, beyond the realm of male honor, lives the lost boys and the world they wish to create.
One last thing, I called the women who fall for these PUA guys stupid. That’s a harsh word I suppose, and not all are stupid, some are just broken, but I used the word stupid to imply personal responsibility. Women have tremendous power in this situation and when in our quest for equality and female sexual empowerfullness we fail to be aware of what is being lost, what we are trading in and replacing tradition with, we be outright stupid. We can blame all those men, but they aren’t dancing alone.
“If anyone thinks that Christians regard unchastity as the supreme vice, he is quite wrong. The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. All the worst pleasures are purely spiritual: the pleasure of putting other people in the wrong, of bossing and patronizing and spoiling sport, and back-biting; the pleasure of power, and hatred….a cold, self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute.” –CS Lewis, Mere Christianity
See, there's this thing called biology... 
So true. Casting the firs stone comes to mind.
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“I don’t wish to get myself into trouble here, but we currently have a certain political candidate alpha-gaming the crap out of the electorate and rather masterfully playing off of people’s repressed anger about geo-political events.” Political physics, as it applies to Newton’s 3rd law. This candidate and his followers are reacting to the elitism (and detachment) of the political class in this country.
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Yes, seduction as political game. I just wish our politics would stop revolving around a bad romance 😉
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That’s a nice way to portray it!
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Why not? That description fits what the current president did to get elected.
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The premise of your post in terms of the title is rather confused. It was used in a sarcastic question to you – not in relation to anyone’s opinion of manosphere. Carmen was questioning why you would go there and asked, “is it as titillating as the filth on Biblical Gender Roles’ site?”. Sarcasm.
The attitude towards women is concerning, hence other words like ‘scary’ or ‘disgusting’, and I think even some of your readers would agree.
“Why? In the absence of God and love, who cares about silly things like trust, respect, and love? In that world, the only thing that matters is your own attraction desires and since might makes right, game away.”
Speaking for myself as an atheist, I acknowledge that I am a sentient being with feelings, as are the rest of my human companions in this existence. I also understand that for me to live happily, in comfort and with good feeling, I have to extend that courtesy to other people. If I see unhappiness, such as the men in the internet subculture we’re talking about, or the women who are sucked into relationships with them, I like to comment on it and push for change. In order for my own attractions and desires to positively impact on my life, I have to acknowledge that a loving monogamous relationship is the most logical and desirable prospect. I don’t know why Christians imagine that random sex brings so much happiness, and that without the constraints of their religion it’s all life should be.
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“I have to acknowledge that a loving monogamous relationship is the most logical and desirable prospect.”
For whom?? Because I imagine some men may well prefer a harem or polygamy, or perhaps unlimited sexual access with no commitment or responsibilities. Than we have the women who prefer no relationship at all, who would rather go it alone with some assistance from the state. From there on out we branch into multiple other kinds of relationships people find logical and desirable, SSM, three way partnerships, communal marriages, swingers, open relationships and so forth.
“I don’t know why Christians imagine that random sex brings so much happiness…”
I’ve never heard Christians say this. It seems to be more of a deception the world has embraced. As far as I know, most Christians are concerned about the long term impact of such short term pleasure.
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The disjunction here is the soul – to be alive is more than to be “a sentient being with feelings.” Every religious tradition speaks to the unity of personal experience – an example in Genesis is the observation that a man and woman “become one flesh.”
I tried to explain this to a young woman this weekend, observing that I was disconcerted that women don’t respect themselves. To her objection, I observed that woman are designed to bind matter and spirit – this is specifically what occurs in the sacred vessel of the womb. My experience in life has been that what they really desire from a man is the opportunity to bind love to reality. When I say that “they don’t respect themselves” what I mean is that under the force of social convention they compromise themselves to relationships that instead pour poison into them.
As I see it, the pathology of the manosphere (boyosphere? misogeosphere?) arises because these men have never experienced the power and healing that comes from uniting their strength to a woman committed to the process of binding love to reality.
The challenge to the atheist in this formulation, of course, is that right behind the soul lies God. The reason a woman finds so much joy in that experience is that it links her to the perfect source of love, which is what Christians call God. You can analyze and categorize all you want, but unless you can present that experience of life to others, it’s all just words on a page, words that can be picked up and twisted for political purposes. That cannot be said of the actual experience.
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The challenge to the atheist in this formulation, of course, is that right behind the soul lies God. The reason a woman finds so much joy in that experience is that it links her to the perfect source of love, which is what Christians call God. You can analyze and categorize all you want, but unless you can present that experience of life to others, it’s all just words on a page, words that can be picked up and twisted for political purposes.
There is no ”challenge to the atheist”. What ‘soul?’ This is just supernatural gobbledygook.
Perfect source of love? What a truly bizarre notion.The (make believe) god you genuflect to is a bit of a misogynist and most definitely an ego-centric, genocidal arse-hat of the first degree. All one can say is that you have a very screwed up idea of love, Brian. Perhaps it has to do with the way you were brought up?
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Brian, thank you for a comment that will leave me pondering for some time. It’s truly frightening what superstitious gobbledygook people can imagine. I’m sure the young woman you attempted to explain it all to was left speechless and disturbed for you.
Here’s some words on a page for you that actually make sense. We’re animals. We find joy in relationships because we have evolved this way. If we didn’t find joy in relationships our breeding potential would be impeded and any children would be abandoned. The cycle could never continue and we wouldn’t be here. It’s not difficult to understand. Even if a god did create us, she understood the basics of how to make things happen.
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You know, putting words in somebody else’s mouth is a terribly weak rhetorical tactic. Actually, the young woman, in response to my admissions that I was “doing the best that I can”, observed that I am “doing a really good job.”
You may insult my words and intentions, but I understand the fundamental basis of our existence (in a physical sense) far better than you do. If you look at the world around us, you’ll see exactly the result of us acting like “animals”: overpopulation, resource exploitation, primitive struggle for dominance. That religion hasn’t yet healed this destructive programming is proof of how deeply rooted our evolutionary programming is, not evidence that evolution is the source of the correction.
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Well, I liked what you said, Brian. I think you are right, there are many women who do not respect themselves. If we understood our own worth and value, we wouldn’t behave as we do. That is probably true of men too, it is just that the genuine power within women is so often unknown to us.
Binding matter and spirit is an interesting concept, I like to say binding love to reality. I’m chuckling here, but the bane of my existence is trying to explain binding love to reality to people who don’t believe in either.
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“We can blame all those men, but they aren’t acting alone.”
That’s true—‘as women go so goes society’. When women have used their so-called ‘sexual independence’ to throw themselves at the lowest and weakest males, and display nothing but contempt for masculinity, they shouldn’t be surprised when men stop acting like gentlemen.
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With the Obama Regime crashing to a world shattering close, I decided to poke my head out of the bunker to witness the last 3 weeks of life on planet Earth.
Yes. In three weeks the world is supposed to end, not in fire, flame or flood, but by global warming.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/02/24-days-to-al-gores-10-years-to-save-the-planet-and-point-of-no-return-planetary-emergency-deadline/
And now it’s the “Manosphere” threatening all of mankind.
What an end of the world buzz kill!
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LOL! I think the end of the world may indeed be a bit of a buzz kill. We’d all probably prefer the see a good disaster movie, lots of opportunities for heroism, perhaps some zombies to kill. Don’t forget the really cool background music, too.
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We live in a sexually insane world, by the legal definition of insanity, as the inability to judge right from wrong. I’m glad I’m not a young in such a world.:0/ Sex without respect for personal boundaries is sexual abuse and it seems sexual abuse has become the accepted norm. Being sexually abused leaves the victims very angry. Throw in a lot of gender confusion and it’s just chaos. I think this fits the description of ‘the manospere’. I think the sexual revolution of the sixties is now, sexual anarchy.
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I heard an amazing speaker over the weekend who is an SME in relative and absolute truth. He made the comment that, even Relativists look for absolutes in four areas: Evil, Love, Justice and Forgiveness. There is only one point in history where these four absolutes converged: The hill of Calvary.
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I do not understand how one can logically argue good/bad from a position of no recognizable standard, and as you say, for whom? One inch can only be defined by the beginning of a ruler.
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“One inch can only be defined by the beginning of a ruler.”
Ah ha! I like it. 😉
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“I do not understand how one can logically argue good/bad from a position of no recognizable standard”
Interesting. What is your recognisable standard? Do you have slaves? Good in the Bible. Are you celibate? Good in the Bible. Are you divorced? Bad in the Bible. Are you overweight? Bad in the Bible. Are you in favour of abortion or homosexual marriage? No position is discernible from the Bible. Or do your ‘recognizable standards’ get magically beamed to the pastor of your choice, or indeed yourself personally?
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Violet-
If I may.
There is no ‘magic’ involved at all. THAT is reserved for they who say life exists apart from Intelligence, a feat Houdini would even run from.
What you call magic is simply an understanding of God and His ways; key here being His added revelations through time. You can be sure if there is a fault with interpretations or understanding, it is always on the fault of we the people; perhaps we have not looked long enough and honestly enough for the answers already given.
The word of God is a rather large book ya know, addressing all that is necessary regarding the issues of life. But if your premise is God is somehow full of defects, than NO answer will satisfy a distant heart.
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I haven’t written any “manosphere” stuff in nearly a year, but I was a big fan of SunShineMary’s old blog, and used to get lots of positive reactions from places like reddit.com’s TheRedPill (before they banned me.)
I think the “manosphere” was a well-meaning reaction to the sillier – and more asinine – aspects of feminism and the “left” in general.
But too often it just degenerated into stupidity like “PUAs” and (I hesitate to use the word) misogyny.
I just think men and women are different. It’s just biology. So it would also make sense that men and women think differently, and see the world differently, and – GASP – communicate differently.
Everyone used to understand this, and it was no big deal, but for a few decades there the natural differences were swept under the rug in the interests of so-called “equality.”
Fortunately, I think things are getting better.
Can you imagine if men and women were actually “equal?” The same? What horror.
Thank God men and women are different – that’s the whole point!
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Vive la difference! Those differences are half the fun and make the world go around. Life would be rather boring without them.
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Yep – quite a lot of the “manosphere” was just the male version of “feminism” – “masculinism” or whatever. The same old crap, just for men instead of women.
Always remember that the pornography culture like Playboy magazine of old was always ultra-feminist, while at the same time, denigrating of women in a certain way. Playboy’s Hugh Hefner was a major funder of feminist causes – even as he peddled the sexual objectification of women.
Some of the early feminists actually sided with Christians when it came to opposing the pornography culture, but they both lost out to the modern degeneracy. By the time of so-called “third wave feminism” it had become just a self-parody.
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Red Pill and the rest of manospere mostly makes me feel sick, and almost entirely encourages abuse and entrapment behavior. The very same behavior my female friend abuser engaged in.
Men, don’t do it, there is a way to have the social support system you want, the girl you want, the life you want, and make it stay, but it involves effort, and personal growth, and being emotionally open, and really really working on yourself, and being healthy and interesting and easy to talk to. and none of it is a quick fix.
Besides, I had a “alpha” after me a little. I was a little frightened of the Alpha lifestyle, it won’t work on everyone. The thing there sick men don’t get is that there is no general rule to attract what you want and when you get what you want you might not always like it. I have seen so many men try it but then abandon it cuz it feels fake, or reads fake.
They write increasingly deluded advice columns and I am over here being like, “maybe talk to her?”, figure out how to be a safe person, figure out how to be engaging, figure out how to use your gifts to get affection, learn how to teach your hobbies, find out what people stick to you.
You know what I don’t find attractive, rapist abusers who have to bully people into staying near them, 100% not attracted, wouldn’t even mourn them leaving my life.
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I agree with you, Elizabethan. I think the two things I find the least attractive, in fact downright repulsive, are bullies and liars.
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