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church, faith, fellowship, hope, love
The other day I was speaking to a man about the church and why he didn’t go. For those who don’t know, there are a whole lot of men where I live (and women too,) who are believers and yet outside of the church for decades.
He’s outside the fold because he believes the church is repressive towards women and that we shelter pedophiles and promote child abuse. It’s a common meme around here, one that the world has propagated and promoted ad nausem, until one’s own perceptions of the church have been nearly entirely formed by false advertising.
Notice that he did not complain about the so called feminized church as some manospherians do. How do you know if someone’s fruits are rotten? They’re telling everyone to avoid the church and stay away from fellowship with other believers. Also, “church is for women.” That is a major red flag of all cultians, demanding and creating isolation. Separate, divide, control.
Back to the man however, and our conversation about the church and how oppressive it is towards woman. How sweet that was, how kind, what a testament to this guy’s protective nature that he cares so much about how women are treated that he feels as if he cannot participate out of fear of condoning or supporting something he does not approve of.
How absolutely hilarious that God saw fit to send a former feminist to cross paths with him. That irony did not escape me. So there I was speaking to a man about Christ’s love for women, about the way he first revealed Himself to the woman at the well, the way He healed another who simply touched his hem, about how He stood up for the woman with the perfume when all the disciples chided her for “wasting” such a precious resource. About how Christ himself often protected women, protecting us even within scripture for thousands of years, so we would not be edited out of the story.
The church has been good to women overall. Look at the Western world, a world heavily influenced by Christian values. For all our flaws, we’ve created this environment where women enjoy more rights and freedom then we ever have in history anywhere else in the world. It’s not all glitter and ponies, but it’s pretty darn good. Even our poor, of which I have been one many times over, often have electricity, running water, and something besides dirt on our floors.
There are a lot of things about the Western world that aren’t so healthy for women, but oppressive? Not so much.
Did he hear me? I don’t know, but the sun was shining, the birds were singing, and it was a lovely conversation. Once again I was struck by a man’s honor, by his integrity and unwillingness to support something he thought might be abusive towards his sisters. He wasn’t a feminist at all, he was simply a man who refused to endorse anything that he thought might promote abuse. A man who has deprived himself of fellowship, relationships, connections, that nourishing of his faith that he so badly needs, because he fears becoming a part of something that might harm those he cares about, mainly women and children.
It sent me off pondering the nature of deceptions, how this man who has had very little experience with the church himself has bought into a stereotype that is mostly false. There are some broken churches in the world, some false teachings, but over all that is not the whole story or even the bulk of the story. He’s trapped beneath a false perception, a deception….. and yet fearful of being deceived.
That’s something I empathize with a great deal, although I don’t fear being deceived or “brainwashed,” at all. His sheep know His voice. We know the fruits of the spirit. And we know the smell of bovine poo, too.
Wally Fry said:
This one is a tough one for me IB. Where I worship, we are extremely conservative and traditional; we are probably the people he is staying away from church over. So, since I am probably an oppressor, all I can really say is good post, as always
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ha! Could be, Wally. Something that’s interesting to me however, here where I live we’ve got the rainbow church and even the atheist church. He won’t go within 500 feet of them and he shuddered at the very thought.
So apparently us cavemen celebrating, bronze age following Christians, aren’t so bad. 😉
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Wally Fry said:
Well maybe you got through to him. It’s nice to see people willing to take time like you did to talk and listen
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Paul said:
Ahhh IB, it is wonderful that you witness for religion – and I am certainly open to any argument in that vein as I do truly believe we should gather together to worship our Lord. That said, I am far too wary of organized religion to ever trust those who run it. I am not convinced that those organizers are any better of worse than a random sampling of humanity – BUT there is a serious flaw in the concept. That flaw which is unique to human organizations- is simple: there are no checks and balances that stop the development of the worst of human qualities in the top echelons. In business ultimately the customers will approve or disapprove – and there are a set of laws that govern the operations. Not so in organized religion – by virtue of its very nature religion is about Faith – benefits unseen. No checks and balances. To give you some idea of lack of checks and balances the following video by John Oliver of HBO on televangelism is especially striking:
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insanitybytes22 said:
Interesting, Paul. Thanks for the video link.
Here’s something interesting in your sentence, “I am far too wary of organized religion to ever trust those who run it.”
Christ is supposed to be the one running it and by extension, all of us. These hierarchies within the church baffle me and tend to cause a great deal of trouble. I don’t hold those televangelists as morally responsible as I hold their whole flock that just sat there like, well lemmings. This urge people have to put somebody else in charge and then to stop having to think for themselves, really does puzzle me.
I hear you Paul, about never wanting to trust organized religion. What seems odd to me is that so many feel that way about religion…..but not government. I’m one of those that tends to never trust “organized government.”
Probably an American thing. 😉
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Paul said:
There are many who do not trust the government IB – again transparency and checks and balances often cannot be established. Lack of oversight seems to bring out the worst in some humans. I loved the comment made by an Australian Member of Parliament (kind of like your congress) who stood up on the record and said: ” Politicians are like bananas: They start out straight and green and end up crooked and yellow.”
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ha! Good one, Paul.
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49erDweet said:
Re: Mr. Clemmons. It’s the latter.
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insanitybytes22 said:
A-yep. I tend to think the clowns are running the asylum, myself. Kind of reminds me of that guy who once said President Obama was just playing 11 dimensional chess and the rest of us were just too stupid to understand his game. 😉
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The Tingler said:
I honestly think men who say they stay away from church on the grounds that it oppresses women are lying. How are you going to say a group 66% of whom are women is anti-woman? In fact, it’s hard to find a religion that’s been more pro-woman on the planet, trust me. Unless you count neo-paganism, but that’s just liberal Christianity dressed up in wizard robes.
But guys who don’t like churches because they’re too pro-woman, that I’d understand.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I don’t believe those men who feel as if the church has oppressed women are lying at all. Many of them have watched their mothers, grandmothers treated poorly and scripture used to justify abuse. Combine that with the politics and the mediated reality that wishes to high light anything negative about religion, and you’ve got a perfect storm.
“But guys who don’t like churches because they’re too pro-woman, that I’d understand”
It depends. I would hope a church would be pro people in general, since Christ is for us all.
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The Tingler said:
When have women ever been abused by American churches? American churches have always been bastions of womanhood; hell, men for the last 200 years have a time-honored tradition of writing off church as a place for women and children. Again, 66% of the asses in the pews belong to women. If anything, I think the guys making this claim have a secret issue with women.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I guess you missed the whole sexual abuse scandal, the women who were put in unwed mothers homes and had their children forcibly placed up for adoption, the rampant domestic violence and perversion of scripture used to justify it?
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The Tingler said:
The irony is that the more churches make themselves female-friendly, the more the popular culture slags Christianity for being oppressive to women. I know of no other religion that bends so far backwards to appeal to women. Let’s be honest, this is probably why it appeals to fewer and fewer members of both sexes.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“I know of no other religion that bends so far backwards to appeal to women. Let’s be honest, this is probably why it appeals to fewer and fewer members of both sexes.”
I agree, I know of no other religion that shows such kindness and love towards women. The second part of your comment however is false, the church is actually growing worldwide.
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The Tingler said:
“I guess you missed the whole sexual abuse scandal,”
Oh, I thought we were talking about oppressed women, not pedophiles. Sorry.
“the women who were put in unwed mothers homes and had their children forcibly placed up for adoption,”
That happened in Ireland, and only lasted a few decades. Frankly, I see that as a pretty humane way to deal with the problem, don’t you? Certainly beats encouraging single, unwed motherhood like we do.
“the rampant domestic violence and perversion of scripture used to justify it?”
I don’t know what “rampant domestic violence” even means, let alone how scripture is perverted to justify it. Are you saying wife-beaters go around quoting scripture before hitting their wives?
“The second part of your comment however is false, the church is actually growing worldwide.”
Yup, it’s just shrinking here in the female-friendly first world, and growing in the patriarchal third world. It may be light in the loafers here, but it’s way more robust among the brown-skinned.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well you sure aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed are you? Tell you what, dump the rhetoric and the cultian crap and we’ll have a genuine conversation. Otherwise, I’m just wasting my time.
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The Tingler said:
Well, let’s see. So far, you’ve moved the goal posts at least once or twice, followed up by vague assertions with nothing behind them. Even if I was the sharpest tool in the shed, what is there to cut through?
Can I get you to add one more little byte to your rave reviews section? “You debate like a feminist.”
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insanitybytes22 said:
I have moved no goal posts because the only debate that exists is in your own head. I have made no vague assertions, so indeed there is nothing for your little tool to cut through.
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The Tingler said:
Gee, this must be what a “psychologically hard” woman looks like.
We were talking about American churches oppressing women. You brought up pedophiles. That’s changing the goal posts.
We were talking about American churches oppressing women. You brought up Ireland. That’s changing the goal posts.
You brought up “rampant domestic violence,” that’s a vague assertion. [It’s also wrong, btw – married women are assaulted at lower rates than either single women or single men – few people on the planet are safer than a married woman, especially in the West. You’re welcome]
You brought up rampant domestic violence being justified with scripture. Another vague assertion. I asked you who does that. Instead of providing an answer, you hurl insults.
Grow the f- up, Harriet. You argue like a teenager.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Grow the f- up, Harriet. You argue like a teenager.”
First off, don’t curse on my blog. Second of all, act like a gentleman or don’t let the door hit you in the behind. Third, the idea whether true or false, that the church covers up for pedophiles is what keeps many away from the church. Forth, girls were put in unwed mother’s homes right here in America, often run by Catholic charities. Fifth, scripture has frequently been used to attempt to justify domestic violence, often by abusers themselves, unfortunately, also by some churches.
I have posted a blog about a conversation I had with a man, and I have listed some reasons why people feel as if the church is oppressive. I have attempted numerous times both in blogging and on the ground to change those perceptions. You and your ilk do nothing to help the situation by acting like the precise stereotype of an abusive, self righteous, Christian bully. If you can’t soften your heart and actually listen to people, you are doing more harm than good.
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Eric said:
Gender polarity is fundamental to Christianity; deviate from that and you get wingnuts like the Churchian Gamers who think that women are chattel, or kooks like the Rainbow Churchians composing hymns to the Queer Christ.
There’s nothing new about either of these deviations from Christian Doctrine. The Apostles saw the ancestors of both: the Pharisees were the archetype of the first, and the Sadducees of the other.
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The Tingler said:
“Second of all, act like a gentleman or don’t let the door hit you in the behind.”
You have to start acting like a lady if you want to be treated like one.
“Third, the idea whether true or false, that the church covers up for pedophiles is what keeps many away from the church.”
Again, that’s not what we were talking about. Just admit you moved the goal posts, it’s not that hard.
“Forth, girls were put in unwed mother’s homes right here in America, often run by Catholic charities.”
Do you have more information on this? Because the idea of forcing single, unwed mothers to give up their babies for adoption, before putting them in nunneries or the equivalent, there to spend the rest of their days in repentance and atonement, rather than foisting more bastards on the welfare state via multiple baby daddies, actually sounds like an awesome idea to me. Sounds perfectly geared to prevent the plague of single mothers and rampant pathologies attendant on bastardy that our own nation has inflicted upon itself. I could only wish our society would wake up to this kind of idea some day, nothing oppressive about it.
“Fifth, scripture has frequently been used to attempt to justify domestic violence, often by abusers themselves, unfortunately, also by some churches.”
Again, this is a vague assertion. You have not proven it, you’ve only repeated. On what do you base it?
“You and your ilk do nothing to help the situation by acting like the precise stereotype of an abusive, self righteous, Christian bully. If you can’t soften your heart and actually listen to people, you are doing more harm than good.”
Please. How is it that I need to soften my heart and listen but you don’t?
There was no bullying in anything I said, you’re just incredibly thin-skinned and in point of fact, you’re the one who began the insults. *Please* learn to handle disagreement better, because you really don’t do it well.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Sorry Tingler, you’ve been judged boring, predictable, and unworthy.
Go back to your herd and report your conquest. I’m not interested in playing.
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Eric said:
The vermin in the news media are largely to blame for this anti-Christian stereotyping. Largely since mid-1970s, the US media has been dominated by various elements of the Whacko Left, and any anti-Christian rumor or canard gets free air play.
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~Michelle Cook said:
Being a woman myself, I have always felt oppressed by the church in so many different ways. It’s one of the reasons that I am no longer going and only watching online. Even as a child, the church we went to was just one big competition to see who could look and dress the nicest on Sunday morning. Now that I’m older, every time I go to church, I feel like I am being put in my nice neat little place next to the wall; out of the way where I can’t cause any trouble. My opinions on how to make things better have never been considered and I am tired of the drama that floats about every Sunday morning. I still love my church… the worship is excellent and the sermons are God honoring; but after being a board member and seeing how things are actually run behind the scenes, I am appalled by what I have seen and heard. I have spent the last few months watching the sermons online from the comfort of my home and I have never been more at peace with my decision. I just want to focus on worshiping God and not be mixed in with all the drama of organized religion. Is that so wrong? My husband is still taking the kids and I am happy that they love going. I would never want to stop them from going to a place where they feel that they belong. It’s our individual experiences that shape our opinions of the church. Unfortunately my experience, has left me where I am at and I have no idea what I can do to change how I feel.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I’m so sorry to hear that, Michelle. You are not alone, I too have been in and out of more churches than I can count. I also have a low tolerance for drama. My husband is even less tolerant than I am.
Something that has really helped me is understanding that we are the church, the church is us, so “church” can be a group of believers getting together for a bible study. People have done church in the bottom of bombed out buildings in the dark in the midst of war torn countries. Church can be praise, prayer, watching sermons online, whatever we can do to keep our faith strong and on fire. At some point however, we have to fellowship with other Christians to some extent, so we don’t become isolated and alone.
It’s a real struggle, but hey, even Christ Himself comes back and says to the churches, “I have a bone to pick with you!” He had some issues with churchian leaders the first time he came, too. So, be kind to yourself and know that Christ understands.
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~Michelle Cook said:
Thank you for your encouraging words and your understanding heart. Means so much to me…
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osarobohenry said:
Thank you so much IB for posting this. The devil always make people to focus on the irrelevant things as if they are relevant. The devil will not stop depriving people not to go to church. It’s high time we should know the tricks of the devil because his purpose was clearly stated in John 10: 10. May you be highly favored in the name of Jesus Christ.
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PRAJJWAL SHARMA said:
Great lovely.Please have a look on my blog too.I hope you will like my posts.
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DLHavlin Author said:
Deception does have that sweet smell of manure … and success. Look at politics. Houdini looks like a second “classer” compared to these dregs of humanity.
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Salvageable said:
You say people are boycotting the Church because sins have been committed by members (and leaders) of the Church? Isn’t that akin to avoiding hospitals and doctors’ offices because sick people are found there? The Church is not a club that people can choose to join or not to join; the Church is a place of healing that welcomes all who are sick.
I can see boycotting a particular congregation if sins there are not rebuked and repentance is not expressed. To reject the entire Church because sin has happened there is a bit extreme.
In my experience, Jesus will not accept me as a friend if I reject his Bride. When I want to spend time with Jesus, his Bride is always right there with him. Jesus promises to be found where two or three are gathered in his name. That could include a Bible study, But it also includes public proclamation of his Word, public declaration of forgiveness for sinners, and eating and drinking his meal while remembering him. Foregoing these gifts out of anger at sinners means rejecting the Lord who forgives sinners.
J.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well said. It’s a bit like avoiding going to the doctor because there are sick people there. I agree with you, “Foregoing these gifts out of anger at sinners means rejecting the Lord who forgives sinners.”
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Salvageable said:
Besides, I have found “organized religion” to be an oxymoron like “jumbo shrimp” or “highway safety.” J.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ha! Thank you for that, organized religion is an oxymoron indeed 🙂
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Andrew said:
You Bronze-age myth-mongers REALLY need to cool out and embrace the matriarchal Goddess-light.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ha! You made me snort coffee.
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Vincent Wambua said:
Great Blog…amazing posts nicely packaged with practical ideas and gems of wisdom! I had to rate this 10/10! Cheers 🙂
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