I do, I like reformed theology very much. However, I do not like the reformed one single bit! A bunch of arrogant, rude, cage stage, minions of pomposity, with egos five stories higher then their IQ.
Too harsh? Okay, let me try again. Exceedingly arrogant, inhospitable cretins who compulsively drool. I would rather die alone in the wilderness without coffee, then to spend five minutes in their company. Blech.
Now, since I am not a complete bigot painting the world with a broad brush, you should know that having now personally interacted with several hundred of them, not a feat for the faint of heart I assure you, I have found about 3 who have always spoken kindly to me and been gracious. A rare breed, I’m telling you.
Most are far more interested in pounding their chests and declaring themselves to be right and self righteous too, then they are in sharing the good news or loving their neighbor. In fact, I could link right now to several articles and blog posts declaring how the good news is “not good news for you,” how empathy is a sin, and how loving your neighbor is bad, even slanderous to Mr. Herman Neutics.
Two others are comedians and yes, I am willing to forgive almost anything if you are at least funny. One is a pastor who simply tells the worst dad jokes ever. I am exceedingly grateful for his ability to find some humor in the world. Never mind the poor quality of the jokes, his willingness to understand that humor is the great equalizer, the path to humility, is far more valuable then all his theological wisdom combined.
Too be fair, there are four others in real life on the ground who have refused to interact with me at all, so I can’t very well judge them properly. On the other hand I have now spent some 25 years saying “good morning” and being greeted to nothing but scowls, which is it’s own kind of judgement, I suppose.
We can laugh about such things, but in all seriousness, it took the Lord some 20 years to convince me He wasn’t also looking down on me with that same disinterested scowl.
I am exceedingly good at building the motherlode of all one sided relationships. In fact, I will even invest decades in this game before getting bored and wandering off. I once thought you know what, I bet we could fix the whole reformed thing by simply teaching some hospitality, by showing them why relationship matters, why addressing the needs the heart is important. I suspect even the angels laughed at that silly notion, but it took me several years to finally just throw in the towel and surrender to defeat.
It’s darkly humorous, but many of the reformed like to possess the truth as if they are playing a game of capture the flag. Then they proceed to try to whack people upside the head with assorted Bible verses and creeds. One of their worst excuses for this boorish behavior is, “I’m just speaking the truth in love.” What’s darkly humorous is that I also possess a bit of truth and a bit of love, one none of them really want to hear. Suddenly when it comes to “speaking the truth in love,” they are no longer big fans of the notion. Suddenly they love neither truth nor love!
Go figure. I call it, grace for me, but not for thee.
I’m sorry, but I regret to inform you, there is no branch of Christianity called, “jerks for Jesus.” Well, obviously there is, but there isn’t “supposed to be.” That’s not an actual calling. It is not a spiritual fruit. It is not a gifting. It’s not a denomination. “My way or the highway,” is also not a helpful attitude.
I may well die alone in the wilderness, but I assure you, I shall not only have Jesus but my coffee, too.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
I seriously question theology that bears this kind of fruit
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Yeah, that’s yet another one of my questions for the pearly gates, how come beautiful theology can produce such rotten fruit?
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I don’t find it beautiful. I would posit that it is a perspective on God that is ugly, and it creates ugly behavior as a result.
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True, when we have an ugly perspective on God, it creates ugly behavior as a result. I’m not sure if I can pin that entirely on the reformed. I mean, all sorts of Christians can have an ugly perspective on God.
Somebody smart once said, “God created us in His image and we’ve been trying to repay the favor ever since.”
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Ugly behavior? Hmmmm…
sounds like what the Roman Catholic “Church” did to so many saints reformers and martyrs over the centuries.
Hard to defend.
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The Catholic church has fought ugly heresy both inside and outside its church for 2000 years. It has had to go through constant reforms. But I would also add that any theology that uses Christianity to uphold a political state is ugly. Yet that was the way of the world until about the 18th C when religious tolerance became fashionable for westerners and everyone decided to get along, except Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus. They really didn’t agree to it.
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I like you (and your accordeon!) but I distrust all things Vatican.
That’s just my default setting.
God bless you sister.
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What is it about Reformed Theology that you find so loathsome?
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I will answer this, but I might do it on my blog, maybe later this afternoon. I’m running up against the holiday and need to write a tribute for a friend who just passed away. Just letting you know I’m not dodging the question.
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Didn’t expect you too. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
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TBH, I’m not sure what is my theology “type.” From what I’ve read, I believe I also like reformed Theology….but every thing must be done – and said in love. Which we know is easier said than done. I like to think my Theology is simple, childlike, basic. Jesus is the Son of God, He is one third of the Holy Trinity, born of a virgin, walked on the earth 33 years, was crucified, died, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven 40 (or was it 50) days later, sent to mankind His Holy Spirit as our Comforter, and inspired the Holy Scriptures for us to read about the beginning to the end of this age-AND He is coming again!
That’s about it.
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Amen! I think you got it. A bit of child like simplicity and faith in Jesus probably serves us much better.
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Debbie, when I was being interviewed to join our church, I was asked to give an “elevator gospel” – the gospel in 30 seconds, as if telling it to someone on an elevator ride. I think you’d pass with flying colors. 👍
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Thanks, sure sounds like I could do the elevator Gospel! Encouraging thought!
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Definitely not a complete idiot but likely with the rest of us, an incomplete one? If we were somehow to remove the “Reformed” clothing, would we not likely find the annoying attitudes standing nakedly before us? Is it unfair to observe that churches, like other versions of government, don’t change most of us very much?
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It is not unfair to notice that churches don’t seem to change us much. That is the truth. Part of that is probably because churches don’t change us, Jesus does.
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Call me a nit-picker; it seems to me that we receive encouragement but must make and accept the results of our own decisions. But I do not own the truth …
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I am so sympathetic here. Reformed Theo. would be wonderful- if it were not for the reformed ones……
Needs said though to be fair- the theology does not cause the bad apples. Dare we impugn Romans or Hebrews because people with muddy hands turn the pages? Nope.
There is an AIRogance from that collected group. You can spot it instantly. I knew a college professor highly esteemed in that tradition- I couldn’t stand his company/ then again all bets were off with the vice grip hand shake. Yuck.
But I love correct theology- and if you agree with me great- if not- you’ll come around. lol
Mature people know the difference between arrogance and confidence.
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Thanks for the sympathy, Colorstorm.
Good point about what really comes first, the theology or the bad apples of our human nature? Perhaps some of us are simply drawn to theological flavors that give better cover to our flaws? Regardless, the Bible is sound and God is good, in spite of our astounding ability to get it all wrong.
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Ok … but sounds like “Christianity would be wonderful, if not for those Christians.”
Calvinist/Arminian is an in-house debate among believers happening in God’s great hospital for sinners The Church.
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tkx chado-
but you bring apples and oranges. Christianity itself is perfect, As defined by God. Its people who bring baggage to christianity. See the difference?
Same with all kinds of isms, as there is good in Methodism, calvinism, etc etc. Its the bad mixed in that poisons the whole. The subtleness is stunning. Clear water in a glass looks fine; but would you drink it if you knew there was a drop or colorless odorless poison?
The poison of false doctrine is devilish to the core.
‘Election’ is good, AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. Election is bad as taught by reformed. All bad theology can be traced to isolating one scripture against the whole warp and woof of it all. Many guilty parties on this.
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Fair enough. I simply dislike the generalizations slung around here.
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True, and for what it’s worth, theology does not need ‘reformed.’ Again, it’s the sullied hands.
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Catholic THEOLOGY definitely needed reform.
SEMPER REFORMANDA
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Even the 95 of Luther doesn’t rise to the level of ‘reformation.’ That was a wrecking ball.
Once again, I know many Catholics who are far better Christian in conduct and character than the reformed ones……
They may not be Bible thumpers- but they can be on my team any time, as they do more with less.
But me? I like best of both- as a scripturtarian or biblicist, with Christian graces. Remember, ‘in my Fatgers house are many mansions.’
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Popery needs that wrecking ball.
Over & out.
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Well if it means anything to you, Luther was actually lost ad fog regarding the book of James, calling it an epistle of straw. Yeah, a real smart man there.
I have written extensively on false doctrine, and while men may be poor substitutes for men of God- their are many a good soul clinging to faith, in spite of pointed hats- and while they may know little doctrine- they just may be more spiritual than us.
Don’t chastise Martha- there were no doubt times when Mary needed to be like her….. but the point was made- and we are off into the weeds.
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I thoroughly enjoy listening to R. C. Sproul. John MacArthur is good too, but I suppose some would find him arrogant. Rush Limbaugh, not a preacher, of course, deliberately poked fun at Liberals by appearing as arrogant as he possibly could, but that is conduct more appropriate to an entertainer. But don’t we all find ourselves entertaining?
I suppose Reformed Theology suits the sort who focus on reason more than emotions. The risk here, I suppose, is that we fancy ourselves saved by our knowledge of theology instead of the grace of God. We can forget we need to make the desperate effort of will required to love God and neighbor. We can forget that no matter how hard we try we will fail, but we must try.
Are our emotions then the key to our salvation? Is all entirely about loving God and being grateful to Him? No. To love God requires a knowledge of theology, The minute we ask who is God we can only answer with theology. The Bible is theology.
Who is Jesus? Who is the Father? Who is the Holy Spirit? The answers to those questions is theology. To love God we must know Him. To know God is to learn theology by studying God’s Word.
Anyway, I can only hope you will forgive and pray for us poor followers of Reformed Theology. If salvation is difficult for a rich man, it can only be more difficult for a man who fancies himself smart, knowledgeable and wise. That man has forgotten that compared to our Savior we are as nothing, unable even to be appropriately humble. Lord knows it is hard to be humble.
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A wise and thoughtful answer, Tom! I think you nailed the danger here, “we fancy ourselves saved by our knowledge of theology instead of the grace of God.”
I suspect you are also right about how the trouble rich men have getting into heaven probably also applies to smart ones. I sometimes say intelligence is nothing more then the ability to think ourselves into a great deal of trouble. 🙂
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IB, not wanting to start an argument or a verse by verse “Sword” fight… but the main thing that turns me away from “Reformed” or Calvinistic… or more rightly called “Deterministic” Theology is the idea that God has ONLY chosen Some to give Salvation to… then they believe and Discover that they have been saved. “He loves me, He loves me not” theology. Consider this thought, if Chose certain to be “Irresistibly” saved… He also “chose” the rest not to be. If His Will is that “The Elect” be saved.. His Will is also that the “Non-Elect” would not be saved. Read AW Pink sometime on the subject of God’s Love and John 3 as relates to just Who Jesus died for… and didn’t die for. It will chill your heart.
No… for me, none of “Reformed” Theology attracts me at all. It’s the very Root of why many of the adherents to it are the way you have described in your post. Arrogant, rude, entitled… Elect… while the “Rest of you out there” are worms.. or better “Vessels created for destruction”.
It’s a very good thing that the Bible teaches the complete opposite. – Barabbas
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From your post …”Go figure. I call it, grace for me, but not for thee.”. Very well said. This is Reformed Theology, that God ONLY chose certain Elect to receive the Gift of Faith and the Ability to Believe and be saved. The rest… are what they interpret romans 9.22 to mean when it calls them “Vessels fitted to destruction” (created to be destroyed). Yup, you hit it right on the head and probably didn’t even realize it. Reformed Theology is… “Grace for me, but not for thee”. Contra what the NT actually teaches. Reformed Theology actually makes God a capricious monster. So grateful that it’s not true.
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This seems like it is the most mature approach. Is it really about theology or faithfully following Jesus? Shalom!
“Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because the Messiah Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. ” ~Apostle Paul Php 3:12–16.
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I’m sorry that is your experience with “the Reformed”.
Are you sure you are not generalizing a teeny-weeny bit?
BTW, there are plenty of mean-spirited Arminians, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. out there. In the end, “mean people suck”, but good theology is still good theology.
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But but but … “reformed theology” is mighty big tent. Zwingli. Heinrich Bullinger. Practically all the Reformation Protestants (not the Anabaptists, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, but yes, the Puritans … so, Jonathan “Heaven is a world of love” Edwards). Karl Barth. The Niebuhrs! The PC(USA) for Pete’s sake, who would never say “God does not love everyone” (as I actually heard Kevin DeYoung say ON CAMERA in a film one time – cringe). Frederick Buechner. Shirley Guthrie. Alvin Plantinga! Katie Geneva Cannon. Emilie Townes. Kathryn Tanner. … My point is, let’s not judge “reformed theology” by self-described “Calvinists” on the intertoobz.
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Yes, all valid points!
I don’t wish to judge people from the past by today’s standards, but Jonathan Edwards is a good example of what I am talking about. He has all that beautiful theology and yet he owns slaves, worse he justifies slavery as Biblical. Then there is the problem where he was preaching and a number of people became convinced they were rejected by God, damned for all eternity, so they all killed themselves.
I like the notion that you simply take the good people offer and spit out the bones. And obviously my expectations of human behavior are often too high.
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Sadly, slavery “is Biblical” in the sense that there are texts in the Bible that assume slavery, and tell slaveowners how to treat their slaves, and that tell slaves how to behave towards their masters, and none that say “thou shalt not own slaves.” Which just goes to show that determining what is good and bad on the basis of what “is Biblical” is harder than people sometimes think.
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Amen, Hat! Yet another reason why I’ve been so opposed to all this works based, obedience stuff that is being taught, is because often we genuinely don’t know what is Biblical, or even what is moral versus immoral, what is ethical. “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” We think we know the difference between good and evil, but we are surprisingly blind and ruled more by cultural mores and our own will than by the Holy Spirit.
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