I thought this was a very good video discussing, Why Do People Believe the Covid and Vaccine Narrative? They talk about trauma, psychology, and cognitive dissonance.
First let me say that it was trauma that brought me close to Lord, that helped me to discover I was wonderfully and fearfully made. I am such a survivor, not by my own will and determination, but by design. Our brains, everything from cognitive dissonance to post traumatic stress disorder are part of an incredible and intricate defense mechanism. Not so fun if you are trying to cope with these afflictions, but as a detached observation, they are just remarkable and awe inspiring in ways we don’t even yet fully understand.
Something I find interesting, these are coping skills, survival skills, and yet they don’t really contribute to our physical health, our well being and survival, in fact they are a huge hindrance, they make us more vulnerable and less safe. So what part of our being is being protected? We have a soul that is more important, more valuable to us than our own physical existence!
All in good humor here, but so many things about human beings are either trauma induced “anti survival” skills or else just downright self destructive. So depression, suicide, addiction, risky behavior, etc, are all really common. The Bible speaks of this mystery too, in Romans 7, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.”
I’ve often said if “survival of the fittest” was rooted in any truth, humans would have gone extinct thousands of years ago. I’m guessing cats and cockroaches would be dominating the world right now. Perhaps they already are, I am just saying, everything I have seen and observed speaks to the fact that there is a lot more going on within people then random evolution.
I think in part my own history has given me eyes to see the psy/ops, the psychological abuse being imposed on people over the past couple of years. I’m just more sensitive to it. It’s been triggering, it’s been traumatic to bear witness to. This is extreme psychological abuse, this is gaslighting, this is propaganda, this is abuse and trauma. This is fear based power and control.
For goodness sakes, a big beefy man drove by me on a motorcycle wearing a mask and no helmet! That ain’t a healthy, functioning, human being, that is a symptom of massive trauma and propaganda.
When covid first hit I made it about 8 days. Eight days of rationalizations and excuses, also known as rational-lies. Out of an abundance of caution “two weeks to flatten the curve,” sounds reasonable. The thing is, abuse and exploitation always “sounds reasonable.” It is always for your own good, always in your best interests, and surely not as bad as you think it is.
This entire thing was built on a throne of lies since day one. That does not mean people are not getting sick. The most effective lies are often grounded in partial truths, but on top of all those half truths are a massive throne of lies. Stop kneeling before a throne of lies!
I spent 8 days trying desperately to cling to the official narrative because the truth was way more scary for me. Terrifying! I don’t fear a catastrophic epidemic of the plague nearly as much as a I fear a totalitarian government. A bug I can handle, fascists forcing me into a mandatory abusive relationship, not so much.
Let’s add in the fear of knowing this truth and no one believing me, the fear of being completely abandoned by those I had always counted on to protect me, and the fear of betrayal. Those are all huge emotional childhood traumas. Thankfully, a lot of my issues are just residual, shadows, there is a strong foundation built over the top of all that wreckage, so it’s more like, Oh uhg, I felt that.
Nobody wants to admit to being a victim, nobody wants to be conned. I know, there is a cultural thing going on where people compete for victimhood status, but that’s because we can blame abstract enemies like “patriarchy, racism, or capitalism.” Admitting you are a victim of perhaps your own self, your own cooperation, or simply your own vulnerability? Not so easy. We have an especially hard time confronting reality when it involves the people in charge of protecting us. So, abuse from everyone from parents to government can cause massive amounts of cognitive dissonance.
I’ve been busy working through my own stuff and doing my best to treat others who disagree with me as co-trauma victims. That probably sounds kind of arrogant, kind of certain, and it is, because I am certain. I am absolutely certain we have been subjected to a psy/op tsunami, a massive campaign of somewhat sophisticated psychological abuse.
Something that is really frustrating for me, you can’t really hit people with facts. Abuse victims for example, can drive you nuts because the evidence is right there, right in front of them. How come they can’t see it?! You’re the one sitting there with two black eyes, what additional evidence can I possibly offer?! So if you’re going to truly honor people’s autonomy, you simply have to wait for their own cognitive dissonance to crumble. The brain has to literally break or the hard drive has to crash. It’s not so easy. They have to wake up on their own.
Here’s the other maddening part, abuse always accelerates, it always progresses. It is a cycle. It does not stop if you just comply enough. We are not going to “go back to normal,” until massive numbers of people wake up and say “no more!”
There are some who are vaguely uncomfortable, who sense something is awry and they just want to put this all behind them, make it go away. I can’t do that, that’s not going to be happening. That’s like putting a band-aid on an infected wound. This is a huge, massive trauma and we are going to be dealing with it for years. It’s kind of like those who don’t want to talk about politics. Yes, well if you think “talking” about politics is uncomfortable, I assure you that living it out is a whole lot worse.
So, it’s simply going to require giant amounts of compassion, patience, heaps of grace, and lots of forgiveness. We need to set aside some of our divisions, some of our ideology, and approach one another as co-trauma victims, as unwitting participants in something we don’t fully understand. I’m not talking about those in power, I mean each other, community members, citizens, family.
Just curious on the philosophical side… what makes you anymore “right” than the rest of us who appear to you to be “wrong”?
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Because she’s right😄
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LOL! Thank you, I am right. Appreciate the vote of confidence. 🙂
I think the truth just has authority, because it’s the truth and it always prevails. The amount of energy required for us to prop up lies is always unsustainable. The truth never demands censorship, mandates, and force. The fact that those things have been introduced suggests a great deal of energy is being expended.
But we can also look at motive. The pharmaceutical industry stands to make record breaking profits from this vax, in the billions. I just stand to acquire some more social ostracization.
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A lot of the truth rests solely within the scriptures and the power of the satanic forces (think ‘prince of the air’ and this video… https://rumble.com/vhgzmp-insider-exposes-freemasonry-as-worlds-oldest-religion-and-luciferian-plans-.html?mref=94cwn&mrefc=2 Watch from the 4:30 minute mark if you have not time to see the whole video) which all of mankind has had to endure from the beginning, we are only now seeing a culmination of that which was written aforetime for our knowledge today… here is a little clip which reveals a portion of the manifestation, many have allowed themselves to become pawns, and in the end they will come to realize they could’ve had a V-8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl6Iz4dXGdg
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Oh, for sure we know she’s Right… and sees conspiracy in all of mankind. Doesn’t matter. Just curiosity of the moment.
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Do I see a “conspiracy in all of mankind?” Perhaps, I certainly believe in total depravity.
The thing about covid, the “conspiracy” is not very hidden. Like, individual politicians are getting off on all their power and the pharma industry is raking in billions. The only “conspiracy” I can see going on is that some people seem to believe this is all about their own health and well being.
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I do see hope in some left wing outlets. The Darkhorse podcast seems to be leading the way in contesting the leftist takeover on principle – something the mainstream media outlets lack.
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I might think “depravity” is a matter of judgement… unless you’re pulling strictly from religious doctrine, which then becomes a subject of faith.
As for Covid… gotta do what you gotta do, gotta believe in what you gotta believe.
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Hey Doug/
(Tried responding @your site- WP makes it difficult)
Anyway, it’s kind of depraved to not only walk out of Target with stolen TV’s, but to actually watch such people and do nothing/ in effect, just as bad-
I could cite ten thousand examples of mankind gone sideways- and yes, this includes all the c-19 crap-
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(As to access to my site, I’ve not been notified of any “stoppage” or difficulty; I’ve gotten there all the time. The other site has issues it seems.)
As to the flash mobs dashing into stores and taking things uncontested by anyone with or without authority… a few years ago I had a job as the lead security guard at the Louis Vuitton store at City Center on the Vegas Strip (no.. being a damn security guard is NOT a career move.. long story).. a huge three floor location. Our job was NEVER to interfere in doing anything beyond making a grab for the merchandise being stolen as the culprit was running from the store, and even that was a personal choice if given opportunity. We were strictly eyes & ears and whatever imposing appearance we could present to intimidate potential evil doers and lend a sense of security (and imply a sense of value to the stuff being sold) to customers. Security guards.. your average malls guards, store guards.. armed or unarmed… save lives first, merchandise is never worth a life even if the life is the bad guy.
These flash mobs pop into your store.. you just let them do their thing. But as a guard you just don’t stand there with your ineffective thumb up your butt. You mentally take in descriptions.. how many… heights… distinguishing features… clothing type… verbal exchanges… you take in as much as you can and give it to the cops. The idea.. at the end of the day we all go home. It all looks bad on TV… and as a financial loss to the store owners it is bad… but kept in perspective, that’s up to the owners and the cops, and no one died that day.
I fear one of these snatch & grabs is going to happen with one of those gun carrying…. “citizens”…. who decide to cross the line from being “lawful” to lone-wolf vigilante, and kill someone over a handbag.
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@ Doug, “As for Covid… gotta do what you gotta do, gotta believe in what you gotta believe.” No, this is exactly what we should NOT be doing. Our response to the pandemic should always have been grounded in science and ethics, without political influence and balanced against the dire consequences squashing civil liberties during a “state of emergency” brings.
We did the exact opposite and are now paying dearly for it.
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Well, then my “science and ethics” is different from your “science and ethics”. Whatever works.
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That’s the whole problem, Doug. “Science” is not a matter of perception and it is not subjectively defined. You cannot have your science and ethics and I just have mine. Gravity is not a matter of opinion.
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No.. it is absolutely not.. in gravity that is correct. So you are saying there is only one “truth” (religion aside).. and I will agree with that as well. So if all science is now corrupt (or corruptible) to the whims of politics and this human affinity to covet power of all forms, at all levels, for any and all reasons.. where does that leave us, IB? I say pot-ay-to, you say po-tah-to… but drop one and gravity stills pulls it down either way. In the last couple years you, Julie, Tricia, et al, have presented nothing to convince me otherwise in all your posts that “your” science is better than the “science” I chose to believe in, that I feel has served me well all my years. Yes… no one had a goal to specifically convince ME one way or the other. But I follow blogs not of my opinion to gain some level of insight. And most certainly my challenges along the way to any of you has not altered your opinions… nor was I really trying to as I place value on rebuttal. So you tell me… in the end what truth IS truth? I have no answer to that.
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Well, one major issue, you’re trying to treat “science” as if it were a religion, hence you speak of “choosing to believe in science.” Science is not a matter of belief, it is not an entity we put our faith in. So what you are really saying is that you choose to believe in the goodness and benevolence of your government and the authority of the traditional institutions that have harnessed science and always used it for your own good. So it is unthinkable to you that those in charge could ever not have your best interests at heart. That is where cognitive dissonance usually starts to kick in.
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What I chose is to have faith in the Constitution, the application of checks & balances, the representative government assigned by “We the people…”, and my complete and undying faith in the basic good of humanity, yet understanding the confines of our own frailties and shortcomings being a contrary force to that basic good.. and I do not believe in the wide ranging corruption and conspiracies suggested as being possible given all the humans required to be involved to even do those things. Possible? Sure. All things are. Plausible? No. Simply because of the same human frailties. I don’t happen to believe one bit that this entire pandemic is a conspiracy involving scientists, China, big pharma, blah, blah, blah. And most certainly I do not believe the major media outlets are all corrupt even within themselves given all the people they employ. The more humans you involve in a grand plot the more exposure to that plot being discovered.
But, hey… that’s just me.
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“Gravity is not a matter of opinion” LOL
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@Doug
Why don’t you spend some time telling us how awful Trump is without being able to state specifically what he did as president that was was so wrong? Then explain how it is that President Joe Biden has been fulfilling all the awful predictions Liberal Democrats made for Trump’s presidency.
The concept of total depravity is easily misunderstood.. Radical corruption might be a better word choice..
What is involved? Well, the idea is related to the Fall, the fall of Adam and Eve, the fall of mankind. In the aftermath of the Fall, what Gaod had made good was corrupted by sin. Genesis 3 describes what happened, but the theology is best understood by reading the Book of Romans.
Are you a sinner? Of course, you are. Like all of us, you too have sinned. You have done bad things even though you knew you should not. That is not a matter of judgment. It is a matter of accepting what you already know to be true.
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I’m not worried about Trump. His star (rather, black hole) is collapsing into itself as is the GOP. Biden stands on his own or doesn’t… like any president. For certain there’s a lot less chaos with Biden after Trump. The rest is just what-aboutism.
I will repeat what I stated…
“I might think “depravity” is a matter of judgement… unless you’re pulling strictly from religious doctrine, which then becomes a subject of faith.”
What in that statement do you not understand? There is a depravity of the individual which is entirely a judgement call by other individuals, and the depravity of mankind… of faith… which is what you described.
“Are you a sinner? Of course, you are. Like all of us, you too have sinned. You have done bad things even though you knew you should not. That is not a matter of judgment. It is a matter of accepting what you already know to be true.”
You know, what makes YOU so sanctimonious as to making some “judgement” that I need to be reminded of that? There are just some days on these Conservative blogs where the religious condescending arrogance just stands out beyond the pale. It’s this “I’m the only one who knows the true path so listen to me.” ridiculousness. The point is, you “know” nothing but the faith you have.. as with any of us.
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Well “depravity” as I intended it in our conversation is simply a belief that people are often influenced by things like greed and a thirst for power. Is our government totally depraved? Well, they are made up of people, therefore they are not benevolent parents who just want what’s best for us.
Cognitive dissonance is what happens in your brain when you are so heavily invested in believing those who have power over you are pure and good, that you cannot even see any evidence to the contrary.
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Ok on your explanation of cognitive dissonance. You’re suggesting a misguided “faith”. All is possible and given the numbers (of Americans) possible, is very likely. To the degree that you are assigning this misguided “faith” in government calling the pandemic shots (pun intended) is, at best, the proverbial matter of opinion.
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Again, you are the only one using all this religious language. One does not put their “faith” in things like “science” or “government.” That is incoherent. It makes about as much sense as putting your faith in a pickle.
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[One does not put their “faith” in things like “science” or “government.”]
Well, why not? I guess I am missing your point here. Unless you are suggesting that there is only one kind of faith capable to mankind.. that being spiritual, and any Earthly faith is… not a true faith?
As for faith in pickles… I don’t like them personally.. hence my faith in them is true to the idea that I don’t like them all, without having to taste each one objectively each time I am confronted with one.
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@Doug
When you say that depravity is a matter of judgment, what precisely do you mean? Isn’t that just a fancy way of saying that you have your own truth? Then you have the gall to speak of my “condescending arrogance.” I don’t claim to own the truth. I have enough difficulty figuring out what is true. Fortunately, I don’t depend upon journalists.
You accuse me of words I have never spoken.
Jesus is the One you need to blame.
You admitted you are like the rest of us, a sinner. We all need a savior, and the only suitable candidate is God.
His twelve apostles started pointing us to Jesus long ago. All I can do is point to the Bible they left us. Arrogance? To admit I am a sinner in need of a Savior? Possible, I suppose. However, if we should find ourselves in Heaven with the Father, that will be because of Jesus, not me.
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@Doug
— Botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.
— Absurd policies on COVID-19. We don’t even consider whether someone has had the disease?
— Stifling our own oil industry. Then asking OPEC to increase production
— Soaring inflation because spending is through the roof. Why? To reward the donor class and buy votes.
— And so forth.
All whataboutisms, of course. Not innumerable policy failures.
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You are singing my song . It’s very nice to hear it coming from someone else . This whole thing is so sad and surreal and yet real, and just terrible. But , deep breath, I still believe God will intervene if enough people repent and pray. If not, 😞. The Great Reset/Transition/Transformation is in motion .
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If it’s any consolation, I bit on the previous national panic attack (9/11) for a time. Then I began wondering why they hadn’t the ability to stop the attacks, but they had lots of machinery in place to set up new agencies and enact new policies within a few weeks. All of those laws were ‘temporary’ too.—Remember how we were going ‘back to normal’ after the Taliban was overthrown? lol Just like ‘flattening the curve in two weeks.’
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Reblogged this on clydeherrin.
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“I don’t fear a catastrophic epidemic of the plague nearly as much as a I fear a totalitarian government.”. Hence we now understande the apoplectic reaction to conservative justices by the left. The judiciary is needed by the left to advance their ideology. Hopefully, these mandates make their way to the court and get struck down.
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Reblogged this on Artaxes' brainbench and commented:
This is one of IB’s finest posts (at least of the ones I’ve read).
She nails it when she compares our current situation to an abusive relationship.
That’s exactly how I feel. One of the hallmarks of abusive relationships and of sadistic behaviour is that the abuser always blames the victim for the abuse. It’s always the victim’s fault.
“Now I take away your freedom because you’re not wearing your mask/don’t get vaccinated etc. etc.”.
“Now I’m punishing you because your behaviour caused all these problems.”
The abuser, like any other tyrant, does not use the power of persuasion but he uses the persuasion of power.
He demands obedience without questions.
It is in the nature of abusive relationships that the abuser raises hope by telling the victim that the abuse will end if the victim is slavishly obedient and follows all orders.
It’s also in the nature of such abusive relationships that the abuser is never satisfied. The victim is never obedient enough.
That’s why those who think that perfect obedience such as getting vaccinated and following all orders will end the abuse are sadly mistaken.
There are cases of Stockholm syndrome but for the most part, the abuser is more interested than the victim in keeping the relationship.
However, it’s not only the psychological dynamics that keeps the abuse alive. It’s also the political necessity of achieving “The Great Reset”, “Build Back Better”, “Green New Deal” and other euphemisms for the new global fascism wich wraps itself in the colths of building a new utopia that saves the world from the alleged climate apocalypse.
There is only one thing that will end the abuse: No obedience! No compliance! Our basic, God-given human rights are not negatiable.
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Seems to me those “God-given” rights don’t come from God, but rather through the institution of government. But then you say.. “It’s right there in the Declaration!”. Yep.. it surely is. The document was a form of an “apology” being made to the King for what was about to transpire; a rationale to break away. Jefferson borrowed from John Locke the “Unalienable/inalienable” rights. By comparison our Constitution makes no mention of “God” anywhere. So when people banter about “our God-given rights” as having some meaning in measuring the performance of governance is not all that accurate. To me it’s all about the Constitution.
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Dude, I didn’t refer to the constitution and I’m not interested in a debate about the US constitution.
There are rights (natural rights) that are universal, fundamental and inalienable. Since I believe that God created nature and the universe, these rights are God-given whether the US constitution says so or not.
No goverment can give or take natural rights. It can only aknowledge them or violate them.
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Well, ok.. what are these “God-given” rights and are they listed somewhere? I believe the Ten Commandments are a kind of “code of conduct” for us Christians… where are the God-given rights?
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IB this is a fantastic post and the video you cite is absolutely spot on! Thanks so much for sharing it. I’m actually listening to it right now and it clarifies so much of what I’ve thought but not been able to express about the Covid narrative and psychological abuse we’ve been subject to going on 2 years now. There are so many good nuggets, but what struck me the most is her statement on how the gaslighting is meant to make you question yourself, your sanity and your ability to govern your life. Yup, that’s where it starts and once it does, so many manipulative possibilities open up.
She also talks about the breaking point people need to get to before they realize they’ve been lied to and that the more people get to this point the more they won’t put up with the nonsense any more. My fear is that the cognitive dissonance is so great that it will literally break people’s brains and they will project the hate and disgust that should be aimed at government/public health officials towards the “unclean”, i.e. the unvaccinated who have been demonized in ways not seen since 1930’s Germany.
I love your idea of extending compassion, grace and patience to others because they are truly victims. We need to do this while leading them out of their learned helplessness and in to the truth. Tough stuff ahead though.
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Thanks, Tricia. Yep, you nailed it about how, “gaslighting is meant to make you question yourself, your sanity and your ability to govern your life.” You begin to doubt your own perceptions, your own experiences, your ability to even know which end is up anymore.
Ingrid Bergman does an excellent job portraying this truth in the old 1944 movie “Gaslight.” What I like best is when she is now certifiably insane and it’s well documented she can’t be held legally accountable by reason of insanity, so she ties the bad guy to a chair and torments him.
I too fear what will happen if people wake up all at once, and where all the anger will go, but I keep telling myself that’s kind of a Hollywood notion and a revenge fantasy, more than a reflection of reality. That’s my hopeful theory anyway. 🙂
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I never saw Gaslight but maybe now is a good time to! I do hope you’re right with your theory. I’m not as hopeful, but God has a way of proving me wrong i over and over, lol.
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Well, the right to life and bodily integrity, to name the two most fundamental ones.
As for the rest, ask Dr. google or Prof. duckduck.
It doesn’t matter whether all fundamental rights are explicitly mentioned in the bible or not.
As I’ve said. Since I believe that God created nature it follows logically that all natural rights are God-given.
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That was for doug.
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To your last sentence I would agree. If God created man then man has traits by which he/she can survive.. or not. Thereby, our TRAITS to survive as a species, or not, are God-given.
Look… my point with this little dance is that somehow debatable discussions always come around to “God-given rights” as being somehow some final construct, or fall-back position, for governmental action, politics, etc., when in fact, there is no politics involved with “God-given rights”.. as nothing from (American) man includes those words as a pretext for governance. If your feeling for it is faith-based, to that I surrender as that is up to each person.
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I don’t know what to do with you, Doug. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
That is our very pretext for government, hence, “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”
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Did you not read my explanation above regarding the Declaration? To repeat…
Seems to me those “God-given” rights don’t come from God, but rather through the institution of government. But then you say.. “It’s right there in the Declaration!”. Yep.. it surely is. The document was a form of an “apology” being made to the King for what was about to transpire; a rationale to break away. Jefferson borrowed from John Locke the “Unalienable/inalienable” rights. By comparison our Constitution makes no mention of “God” anywhere. So when people banter about “our God-given rights” as having some meaning in measuring the performance of governance is not all that accurate. To me it’s all about the Constitution.
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Nope. It’s not just traits. You either believe that man has natural rights or you don’t.
There are no feelings involved here.
You don’t have to believe in God to believe in the existence of natural rights but if you believe that nature was created by God, as I do, it follows logically that these rights are God-given.
You are free to believe what you want but if you don’t believe that a woman has the natural riight to be NOT raped then rape is OK in your world and the only thing that makes it not OK is a right granted by goverment.
That kind of nihilism is in essence the law of the jungle aka “might makes right”. I don’t subscribe to that kind of nihilism. There either are natural rights which are independent from any kind of goverment or there are not such rights. If you believe in the latter, the concentration camp guard who gassed thousands of human beings did nothing wrong. He only comitted a crime if there are natural rights that are indepndend from any goverment.
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I’m an armchair humanist.. which is nothing more than saying I embrace humanity in the context that it is “just” one of all the other living things on this planet. What sets us apart is our opposing thumbs from which we can, to a certain extent, change our living environment, and our ability to reason… cause & effect relationships, and draw conclusions from it. It’s because humans can reason that has led to the wide diversity of traits that defines mankind. Whether you believe in some form of natural selection following the Big Bang… or prefer Adam & Eve.. or a composite (my preference), mankind still has an individually defined, collective morality for survival and existence. We need each other to survive, but we also kill each other to survive…. not uncommon in the animal kingdom in general… but we can feel remorse, guilt… or even pleasure from doing that. You speak of rape and the right of women to defend against it. I have no idea your point there… but you ever ask yourself that in the entire living species why is it that the human female is one of a very select few living things that is not of equal stature or complete dominance over their male counterparts to easily ward off unwanted males? Just what did nature… or a creator (notice I didn’t say Creator) have in mind in doing that?
Back to the God-given rights thing… it’s not a political definition by any means. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? That’s a state of being determined by an individual. My rules or goal for a life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness can be entirely different than yours.
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Blah, Blah, Blah.
As usual, you try to evade and to confuse with a fit of lexical diarrhea.
Does a woman have the natural right to NOT be raped? Yes or no?
Do you believe that natural rights exist? Yes or No?
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My “lexical diarrhea” is providing context since you can’t seem to define “natural”.
Everyone has their own right to defend themselves simply to assure a continued existence. That’s nature. In fact, it’s a law of nature. (as defined by a scientist, who these days, may or may not have been in a conspiracy to say that)
You are wanting to assert some moral/spiritual aspect.. fine with me. Political.. a whole different thing.
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Well, if everyone has a right to defend themselves, and I have a right to control who and what I allow in my body, then forced vaccine mandates are deeply immoral, unethical, and a violation of my natural rights.
I think they are God given natural rights, but if you want to believe they are humanist rights, whatever. The point being, we are being abused, our rights are being violated and that is unethical and immoral.
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What about the ethics and morality that you might be passing it to others and affect their rights? On the other hand, if you don’t believe in that science then I guess that’s nothing to worry about.
But, you know, all this replying back and forth really doesn’t mean anything given everyone is locked into their own bubbles of “knowledge”… which is far less about anything “scientific” and entirely about the politics that divide half the country… and the apparent “gullibility” of the other half to prefer to believe what government says.
In the meantime the unvaccinated are dying at a thousand a day nationwide… unless of course you believe that’s all a hoax.
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What a nonsense, unscientific response. The vaccines do not prevent infection nor transmission, in fact they’ve created a army of super spreaders due to vaxxed people experiencing low symptoms (or denial) and not self isolating.
Regardless, there needs to be a dire and direct threat to others that extinguishing the right to body autonomy addresses to even consider taking it away. It’s just not there with the covid vaccines so mandating people take them is preposterous.
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And so it goes….
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And so what goes? If you’re going to infer that people choosing not to take the vaccine are unethical by posing as a danger to others you should be prepared for pushback because it’s scientifically incorrect.
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Oh, Tricia… we believe in different science sources. You’re suspicious of government, big business, the rich, the powerful, the main stream media, conspiracies, everybody’s on the take, and Americans who think Liberal are out to destroy the country. etc. etc. etc., and that’s your right to do so, just as it is for me to accept my government’s response through the agencies and persons putting their integrity and careers on the line to try and help the country. It’s not a blind acceptance, but one tempered with a bit of common sense in the things I do know balanced with a bit of faith in humanity to fill in the gaps. That makes me no better than anyone. But I simply prefer going through life giving folks the benefit of the doubt until such time as they abuse it. Seems to me we elect these people to do something. If we don’t want to believe them.. ever, because we suspect they will all be seduced with power and begin lives screwing us… then, what good is any of this we call America?
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You’re clouding the issue with nonsense again so let’s circle back. You stated to IB that her abstaining from the C19 vaccines was immoral and putting others at risk. This is a scientifically untrue statement because the vaccines, as we all know by now, do not provide sterilizing immunity, which means they do not prevent anyone from getting or transmitting the virus.
This is not a version of “my science”, it’s common knowledge that even Wolenski, Fauci and Biden understand, which is why they continually push masks and testing for everyone and why tomorrow Biden will lay out new rules for masks, testing and possible quarantines for all travelers entering the U.S., vaccinated or not.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666776221002581
https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
https://brownstone.org/articles/16-studies-on-vaccine-efficacy/
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“You’re clouding the issue with nonsense again so let’s circle back. You stated to IB that her abstaining from the C19 vaccines was immoral and putting others at risk. ”
I never said that at all! We have two conversations going at the same time here and things are getting skewed. I’m talking mask wearing.
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Lol, you’re talking about masking Doug? Ok, if you say so then I’ll take your word for it. For the record though IB said this:
“Well, if everyone has a right to defend themselves, and I have a right to control who and what I allow in my body, then forced vaccine mandates are deeply immoral, unethical, and a violation of my natural rights.”
And you responded with this:
“What about the ethics and morality that you might be passing it to others and affect their rights? On the other hand, if you don’t believe in that science then I guess that’s nothing to worry about”
Excuse me for inferring you were talking about vaccines, I don’t know where I got that idea from. My bad.
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Yep, that’s exactly how I understood his response as well.
With regards to the delta variant even his beloved CNN cites CDC’s Walensky as follows: “And if vaccinated people get infected anyway, they have as much virus in their bodies as unvaccinated people. That means they’re as likely to infect someone else as unvaccinated people who get infected.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/cdc-masks-covid-19-infections/index.html
When there is absolutely no need to violate the fundamental human right to bodily integrity such violations are criminal and we have every right to refuse to get vaccinated. No goverment can take that right away from us. It is our right disobey or our goverments and to tell them: “Go Brandon yourselves.”
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Ok, artaxes… there was some confusion to my original reply to IB as a result of Tricia pointing it out to me. I replied above with my apologies.
Regardless, this doesn’t necessarily change the points I discussed with you. Let’s try it this way…
You just replied to me…
“When there is absolutely no need to violate the fundamental human right to bodily integrity such violations are criminal and we have every right to refuse to get vaccinated. No goverment can take that right away from us. It is our right disobey or our goverments and to tell them: “Go Brandon yourselves.””
I believe the “right” comes in the form of assault & battery to one’s person. If a state or federal government forces any invasion of your person it’s assault/battery under whatever jurisdiction did the violation. Even unjust confinement falls into a legal violation. I believe in the Constitution hence these “natural” rights some folks like to proclaim are fine for moral constructs but have no direct legal foundation. The rights DO get represented in enforcing laws. In other words, IB stating she has some natural God-given right not to be force vaccinated is not actually accurate. The Constitution, and state constitutions, assign that kind of act being assault. Now should someone in government attempt to try and sign off on some mandate to force vaccine compliance in the general population… likely that would immediately be challenged in court, with a stay.
I know it’s popular with the Right to proclaim a “patriotism” to threaten government with rebellion because “the Declaration said we could”. Well.. with any rebellion in any country, no moral “permission” is necessary. When the public gets pissed, revolts happen. The Declaration was between us and England some 240 years ago. The Constitution itself contains no remedy for a pissed off citizenry… nor should it. Enforcing the process of the Constitution is how we avoid revolutions… unless you just plain wanna start something because of “bad” politics.
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Nope, I replied to Tricia but anyway …
I’m glad that you have figured out what natural rights are without the need for me to define “natural” for you.
As I said. I don’t want to discuss the US-constitution but you can’t let that go.
Before having any meaningful discussiion you should read the “federalist papers” and read how the constitution came into being.
Your ignorance shows.
The constitution did not came out of a vacuum. FYI, natural rights are not mere moral constructs. To quote Hamilton: “the Constitution is itself, in every rational sense, and to every useful purpose, A BILL OF RIGHTS” (the federalist #84). It is a bill of natural rights, not because it contains a compendium of those rights but because it is an expression of the natural right of everyone to govern himself and to specify the terms according to which he agrees to give up his natural freedom by submitting to the rules of civil government.”
Spare me the usual jabs against the political Right. It’s mostly the Left which engages in mass violation of the law as we saw in the BLM/Antifa riots.
That’s a sideshow anyway and not essential to the argument.
What is essential to the argument is this: Applying your logic that only rights that are explicitely enumerated in the constitution are legal rights, you would have prior to the adoption of the 13th ammendment been forced to say that the right to not be enslaved is not a legal right. When a black man resisted his enslavement prior to the adoption of the 13th ammendmend he exercised his natural right to be free. That natural right was later aknowleged in the constitution.
Would you please answer these questions:
What is the difference between rape and forced vaccination when in both cases a foreign object is inserted into the body of a person against her will, often causing irreversible effects?
Where in the constitution is the right to not be raped enumerated?
Since there have been found in the penumbra of the constitution the right to abort a baby, surely we can find somehere in that mythical penumbra the right to not be forcibly vaccinated. can’t we?
Universal natural rights are, well, universal. That’s why I won’t disuss the US constitution any further.
All human beings have the natural right to their bodiliy integrity and just like the black man that exercised his natural and yes, God-given right to be free, before the constitution was ammended, I will exercise my right to not be forcibly vaccinated and any goverment or person trying to do so can go to hell.
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“What is the difference between rape and forced vaccination when in both cases a foreign object is inserted into the body of a person against her will, often causing irreversible effects?”
Both are assault given they are both without consent. The “irreversible effects” part is irrelevant unless it occurs and that adds to the crime.
“Where in the constitution is the right to not be raped enumerated?”
I just stated, it’s assault… and it’s likely a state offense. Rape itself is not a federal crime.
“Since there have been found in the penumbra of the constitution the right to abort a baby, surely we can find somewhere in that mythical penumbra the right to not be forcibly vaccinated. can’t we?”
Two different criteria. Abortion was a Supreme Court determination regarding life in the womb. Forced vaccination, like I’ve said three times now, is assault and likely unlawful confinement.
FYI, just today the Court is deciding a case that just might end Roe v. Wade.
I am not a lawyer.
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Ah… ok….I mentally queued up IB’s last sentence in that reply…
“The point being, we are being abused, our rights are being violated and that is unethical and immoral.”
Yes.. up to that point she was making the point of the vaccine violating a personal right of choice. No question there. I pulled from her last sentence the inclusion of the mask wearing dispute as being a violation of rights, given that’s been the longer issue of contention from before the introduction of the vaccines. My introduction of confusion to my point… and given I made the remark I should also apologize for my lack of clarity. Had we (me) clarified this sooner we could have avoided two thirds of the replies here.
I mentioned the polls earlier about mask wearing being disputed more by Conservatives/Republicans… the same goes for even a willingness to take the vaccines…. again suggesting that science, or even the idea that it’s all about retaining personal rights, is not as dominant a reason as just plain distrust of government. Politics.
While I personally shy away from some general governmental public vaccine mandate I understand the why. Employer mandates is a different thing because there is a choice… conform or lose your job. I am fine with peer pressure as an inducement.
Again.. sorry for the great confusion but nothing in the replies indicated to me otherwise until Tricia said something.
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Yeah.. you’re right there. We’ve run the limit on this one. All I did was ask a “philosophical” to IB to kick this one off. To go back to what IB mentioned about gravity… as they say, it’s not the falling that generally kills you but rather the sudden stop at the bottom.
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Sorry Doug, not letting you off the hook, your inference was plain as day:
“What about the ethics and morality that you might be passing it to others and affect their rights? On the other hand, if you don’t believe in that science then I guess that’s nothing to worry about.”
It’s a flat out insult, why not just own it?
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It seems what I said was….
“What about the ethics and morality that you might be passing it to others and affect their rights? On the other hand, if you don’t believe in that science then I guess that’s nothing to worry about.”
Not sure how I offended anyone there.. but ok…
The science I am aware of suggests wearing masks also helps to reduce passing from one infected person to another, as well as the person wearing it being somewhat protected from getting it from another. Dual protection. But then, you already know that; nothing new. I accept that and I’m fine with it because I am relatively confident in the science “being fed to me” fits my rule of reasonableness and there’s mainstream media sources that support it. I believe you are accusing “all of them” as being unethical and corrupt and have nasty agendas of acquiring power and riches at the expense of the public. As I recall, I was rebutting by questioning the ethics of your objecting to mask wearing as a prevention of passing on the virus.
So I am unsure what you are “calling me out” on… or not letting me off some hook. If you are about to cite stats and case numbers, etc. I have none of that to engage in a pissing match with you.
Now, the polls all show that those reluctant to engage in mask wearing are predominant with Conservatives. So, if there’s a medical science to all this.. why is mask wearing so political?
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You want me to define “natural”?
Are you a clown?
First you want to embroil me in a debate about the US constitution and then you ask me to define “natural”?
Dude, America’s founding fathers had a very clear understanding of the term “natural rights” and the authors of your constitution had very long and extensive debates whether they should include those rights in the constitution itself or not. I suggest that you read the “federalist papers”.
Before you understand what natural rights are, further debate is pontless.
Have a nice day.
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