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This just keeps coming up for me, so I’m going to address it. Truth is not the beginning of wisdom. The Bible says, “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. “
By “fear” in this context we are talking about awe, as in awesome. Good fear. Reverence. Power. Strength. Or one of my favorite definitions, “profound adoring awed respect.“
I think that’s an absolutely critical distinction to make in a world full of so much deception, politics, fake news, “science,” alleged facts, and deep divisions as people fight over “truth” as if we are playing a game of capture the flag or king of the hill. It doesn’t matter if you have truth on your side, or facts or science, or even “might.” Might makes right in some circles.
None of these things are the beginning of wisdom. Anyone ever tried to present enough truth and facts on the internet in the hopes of making someone wise? We do that and we should probably laugh about it because it can be quite funny in it’s futility. The truth will not make anyone wise because we can only see what we are willing to see. We can only hear what we have the ears to hear.
Another problem with chasing truth, sometimes we think if we just figure out what’s going on or find the truth, we’ll be better equipped to solve problems or to fix it. That’s kind of my personality quirk, I love to get a good eagle’s view of what’s going on, figure out what makes things tick. I can’t even count how many riddles I have solved, how many color coded flow charts and Venn diagrams, reams of facts and figures I have prepared. Darkly humorous, but it’s really all for naught if your goal is to try to share some wisdom. Wisdom is one of those things you just can’t bottle.
We once had a water main break under the road near our house. You would not believe how much trouble I had trying to get the county to address it. They’d say, “what makes you think it’s leaking?” Geysers? Little underground springs that keep bubbling up. The fact that I now have waterfront property and a lake to drive through everyday? Eventually we got to, do you have evidence to substantiate your claim? You mean evidence beyond the vast amounts of water gathering that surely must have originated somewhere? No, no I really don’t. I guess I could draw a Venn diagram, if you’d like? If you’ve ever tried to have a two way conversation with bureaucracy, you’ll understand.
We could argue that “truth” is actually a person, the personhood of Jesus Christ. In fact I do say that quite often. Jesus Himself said, “I am the truth and the way and the life.” I am all about that definition of “truth.” You can’t go wrong there. That is awe-some truth.
Which brings me back to that, “profound adoring awed respect.” It’s the most important thing. It really is the beginning of wisdom.
In my state we’re currently having a imaginary war between “science,” registered trademark, and truth. I say imaginary because there really is no conflict. Science is really just how you observe the world around you. It is an inanimate thing, a tool, it has no personhood, but it is being transformed into a cultural brand. You’re supposed to run about proclaiming your “profound adoring awed respect” for the brand we’ve now labeled “science.” It makes everyone feel very smart and powerful. And so, “professing themselves wise they became fools.”
I kid you not, the cure for all that ails us, the answer to all our questions, the truth that we may need at any time, the way to win all our battles, the wisdom that we seek always comes back to that one thing, fear of the Lord, engaging in that, “profound adoring awed respect.”
That’s really what we were made for, that’s what makes us happy. More importantly, that’s what makes us wise.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Nail on the Head, IB! I keep finding that there is a quiet sort of peace accompanying that wisdom of which you speak.
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Ahh, His peace that surpasses understanding, I’ll totally take it. 🙂
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Of course I am so with you.
This morning I heard adoration of Bill Nye- his worshipful master or so it seems. He brings neither truth, wisdom, nor science, yet the ‘masses’ fall prostrate.
Yet sadly he is not alone. The ‘whole world’ lie that in wait.
Now for the good news/ ever notice how you know something is true / like still water on a pond- yet ‘science’ itself had no personality to enjoy it. A piano made by a craftsman is wonderful, yet the ‘science’ of hammers and tuning forks does not give a whit whether a song is offered to the devil or God.
The island of wisdom is such a lonely place with even fewer visitors. But spit on as to the reverential awe. Not fear as the world knows to be sure.
Have a Memorable day. 😎
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Amen, Colorstorm. Bill Nye has become our cultural minister of “science,” registered trademark. He’s not even a scientist…but he does play one on TV! Ai yi yi.
It is Memorial Day! I often hesitate to say “Happy” Memorial Day, but in a Christian context it really is a glorious day for those who have returned home. That is certainly something to celebrate and rejoice over, so Happy Memorial Day. 🙂
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So aptly stated!!
I heard fear of the Lord also translates to respect— and I like that— both respect, awe and we’ll throw in honor while we’re at it!
I have marveled as if late over how many pastors and priests maintain keeping the doors of their various sanctuaries closed because they are”following” the science— I thought they followed the Word of God but what do I know!?
And I love your tale of battling bureaucracy— it is like talking to someone from another planet!!!
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Well said, Julie! I’m full of compassion for pastors, I sure wouldn’t want the responsibility, feeling as if people’s safety were in my hands. Absolutely, stay shut down if you really feel like that’s the right thing to do. That said however, I am getting a wee bit frustrated with all this, we’re just “following governing authorities” or “following science.” We should be following the Word, we should be following the Lord.
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And I think He’d have His doors wide open— but would approve of certain measures of our so called human precautions —😘
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Well said. I don’t claim to be particularly knowledgeable regarding science, but back in the day when I learned about it I always thought that the important part of it was the questions it enabled you to ask. It’s weird that science now means that we can’t question anything.
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Good point. Science really is all about asking questions. I have no idea what this cultural thing we’re calling “science” is, but it isn’t science at all.
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It seems more like some kind of religion.
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Yes—it’s amazing watching how the Left constantly contradicts itself on this point. They think they’re smarter than everyone else and are ‘critical thinkers’ yet they swallow whatever any ‘expert’ tells them without question. That’s even if the same expert said exactly the opposite just a week ago. They also believe anything that Trump or his supporters say is false without even looking into it.
But the worst is that they hold expert opinions as truth, while at the same time saying that Truth is a relative concept; and that the ones who control the ‘narrative’ make the truth. That just shows that they really just have empty skulls and run with the herd.
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It really can get crazy making sometimes! Recently an article has been going around social media allegedly by an, “award winning expert epidemiologist.” It’s the same letter, but always signed by a different doctor, one from Harvard or Yale, male or female. They’re all real people if you Google them, but it’s very unlikely any of them actually wrote that letter. Doesn’t matter, it was written by an “award winning expert epidemiologist,” so that’s good enough and it must be true.
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Just about everything Trump says about the Coronavirus is false and dangerous so can you not blame people for believing he is an idiot?
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You made some awesome points and many astute comments have followed. May I add a palpable definition? Wisdom is PROPERLY APPLIED TRUTH. Hint: Apart from the genuine leading of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to ‘properly’ apply anything!
Also, “No one can come to God unless the Father draws him” – Jn.6:44. In other words, our best efforts to enlighten someone regarding truth (induce wisdom) are futile without God’s enabling.
While it may be a first impression that infidels are the sole object of Paul’s comments about fools, lest we join THAT group, in ALL things we must acknowledge and employ “profound adoring awed respect” of God. It should be obvious – if the beginning is perverted, the logical end merely produces ‘the fruit of the poisioness tree’.
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Thanks. Great points, MJ.
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“By “fear” in this context we are talking about awe, as in awesome.Good fear.”
How do you work that one out IB ?
Fear- an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm.
Awesome- extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring awe.
Wisdom- the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgement; the quality of being wise.
Back in the bronze age fear did mean real fear as life was usually short lived, how on Earth can you change the meaning of fear? That is the Kings English that evolved over many centuries.
The passage “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,” was exactly meaning being a smart enough pleb to worship God or be struck down and end up in hell. It was just another threat or else why use the word fear? It has FA to do with awesome or the real meaning of wisdom. English words have a meaning that are not open for changing when a theist does not like them.
Science you say is “just how you observe the world around you. It is an inanimate thing, a tool, it has no personhood, but it is being transformed into a cultural brand.”
Well I cannot believe an intelligent person like yourself could ignore the scientific impact on the world we live in. It decides the future for all of us either good or bad, everything we use comes from science one way or another, or maybe we should leave the future up to your religious leaders like Trump to find the cure for viruses, after all he has claimed he knows more than his scientific advisers and he is an icon to many Americans, so how can you go wrong?
“The truth will not make anyone wise because we can only see what we are willing to see. We can only hear what we have the ears to hear.”
In this case a truer word could not be spoken.
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Steve sez:
‘Back in the bronze age fear did mean real fear as life was usually short lived, how on Earth can you change the meaning of fear? ‘
Really now? You knew what they were afraid of? Tkx Steve- you are verifying what science actually is not.
If you were careful to notice ib’s words when speaking of fear, she clearly sez ‘in THIS context.’
It is NOT being afraid of being caught for stealing a cookie/ it is not afraid of getting soaked in the rain/
It is Another context which u do not understand which explains why you can’t see the glory of a scented flower- that is, according to your ‘science’ the scent does not exist- u can’t see it-
What you mock regarding the AWEFULNESS of Almighty God- is simply a mans answer to his own rebellion. It seems men millennia should we’re smarter than you/ because they differentiated between godly fear and mans lack of virtue.
If you boast of nature and evolution, surely you can see how stupid man has become/ if you disagree- then evolution forever be damned to the island of stupidity.
The true fear of God is pure- like ocean waves which stop at the shores by divine prerogative/ not by artificial fiats of brainless evolution.
Your science fails you/ every time. Until you begin at the beginning, you will always be at the mercy of another mans defects- in THIS context, ahem, you can lay no claim to wisdom, for you are running a race at the wrong arena- you lost ere the starting gun. Hope you take this to heart- because I do wish u well.
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CS you are using the word context, not a good look:)
Okay I understand religious people like to understand things a little differently from all other folks, however The word “fear” is a powerful word that means an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm, and when used in any context or circumstances means terror, fright, horror, alarm, panic, dread, dismay, distress, unease, doubt and suspicion etc, etc.
People put 2 and 2 together when they hear of God and fear. Fear and love from God do not mix to make happiness. Fear and love only mixes when a woman who is both fearful and loving of her husband because she can be beaten by her husband according to law or she cannot find the emotional strength to leave the husband but forgives him and rekindles her love for him. This is termed more as an insecurity.
I believe the “fear of gods” came well before the exploits in the Old Testament but it was a well founded word for the violent bronze age era.
The general driver of power of the day was the unknown and unexpected forces inflicted by the gods including the era of Yahweh and these gods needed to be pleased one way or another and if this was not a catalyst to living in fear I do not know what is.
Science does fail and so does everything else, however science gets it right at the end of the day and it is all we have to depend on to provide us with a future, such as cures and vaccines to keep us alive.
I do also wish you well CS and I think you are a fine but unusual person even from here on the under surface of the level and circular disk:)
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Steve/
Consider this:
When I looked at the streams, rivers, lakes, oceans of the world/ when I considered the heights and beauty of Everest/ the great deep where only a few miles man is clueless as to the life and times of unseen sea life/
When I look at the respiratory/ circulatory/ neurological/ the bones/ blood/ design of the eye/ when I see the eagle soar without a care/ when I see a black bear that would tear the head off a baby and go to sleep a minute later/
When I consider heat and cold/ I must confess- FEAR as you suggest/ is nowhere in my mind. Nowhere.
But reverential awe is. This is the fear/ as was also explained by others here. God is good Steve. We? Eh, we have our moments .
(But your level and circular thought? As it is, and practically correct.)
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I’m guessing that you’re not terribly familiar with language formation and how the meaning of words shift and evolve over time. That’s ok, I am, so you can listen up take some schooling from your betters, alright?
If you go back, oh, 500 years or so, the word we render in modern English as “fear” very definitely had a second connotation just as IB used it. For example, the Reformers used the word exactly as IB did, in exactly the same way. You can actually look it up in their writings – you do know how to work the internet, don’t you?
You’re out of your depth here, dear and your uninformed comment is proof of your own foolishness, which, btw, also has an alternate meaning in older English…but I’ll let you figure that one out on your own.
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You are living up to the blahblahblah.
Schooling from an indoctrinated ideological person who naturally assumes they are better than than me, not likely.
I care not that fear in your world has a second connotation just because it did 500 years ago, theists like yourself seem to want to live in the past.
You may be familiar with the evolution of words so what is the problem with using words as what they mean in the modern world?
In Old English, awe meant “fear, terror or dread.” From its use in reference to God the word came to mean “reverential or respectful fear.”
It is typically a Christian hijacking of the word “awe.” to suit the doctrine. The word “fear” still means the same whether you believe it to be respectful, disrespectful, hateful or even irrational, and if God says he is going to harm you forever for not loving him it is for some people a real fear, right?
And why would you think for one second that a person would go look up 500 year old information to understand ancient religious comments used in the year 2020? I think you are drowning in your self righteousness, but thank you for your comment dear.
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SKLYJD – Are you a linguistic scholar? Linguistics is the science of language, (“I cannot believe an intelligent person like yourself could ignore the scientific impact on the world”) and linguists are scientists who apply the scientific method to questions about the nature and function of language. Linguists conduct formal studies of speech, grammatical structures, and meaning across all the world’s over 6,000 languages. The original language Hebrew, when studied prudently, rightly interprets “fear” as ““profound adoring awed respect.
Opinions may differ, as is expected. But if we agree that the scientific method deserves our respect, then we must also be willing to heed the results of non-biased skilled scientists – in this case linguists.
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You said that so much nicer than me 😉
Thanks for supplying the Hebrew – which is not one of my languages – I assumed it had a similar meaning, given the way it is rendered in English translations of the Bible, but I’m no Hebrew scholar and I was really hoping somebody smart would jump in and supply it…so thanks for confirming that!
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You said “original language Hebrew, when studied prudently, rightly interprets “fear” as ““profound adoring awed respect.
“Fear (pahhad – noun)) came upon me, and trembling, and caused all my bones to shake (pahhad – verb). Job 4:14”
In this verse, the word “fear” is the noun פחד pahhad [H:6343] meaning “shaking,” while the word “shake” is the verb פחד pahhad [H:6342] meaning “to shake.”
The second Hebrew root is ירא yara [H:3372]. In the following verse, we will see that this verb means “fear” in the sense of what we would consider fear.
And he said, I heard your voice in the garden and I feared (yarah) because I was naked and I hid myself. Genesis 3:10
In the next verse, we see the same Hebrew word in a more positive context.
You will revere (yarah)Yahweh your Elohiym and you will serve him and in his name you will swear. Deuteronomy 6:13
Many would conclude from these two passages this Hebrew word has two different meanings, fear and reverence. This assumption is made with many Hebrew words, but this is caused by an understanding of the Hebrew vocabulary from a non-Hebraic perspective. Each Hebrew word has only one meaning but can have different applications. The literal concrete meaning of yara is a “flowing of the gut,” which can be applied to “fear” or “reverence.” Have you ever been so scared or been in the presence of something so amazing that you could feel it in your gut? This “feeling” is the meaning of this word. The Hebrews were a very emotional people, and in many cases their words are describing a “feeling,” rather than an “action.”
https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/living-words/the-living-words-fear.htm
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SKY – Excellent response! Well researched and definitely to be valued by any serious seeker of truth.
As always, context is the most relevant consideration when interpreting a passage. Your points are well expressed pertaining to the exact verses you quoted. However, my reply was specifically directed at the phrase “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” which is found in three other distinct verses – Pslm.111:10, Pr.1:7, Pr. 9:10. All these use a DIFFERENT Hebrew word – ”yir’ah” taken from the root יראה – “yare” derived from the verb yarah. A common misunderstanding is if one is afraid of Yahweh, he will have wisdom, but this is not consistent with its use in the Hebrew language.
The Hebrew for “fear of the LORD” (as found in the verses above) is written with two nouns, יהוה יראת ‘yirat’ Yahweh. ‘Yirat’ is a feminine noun ending with the letter ה, such as ‘yirah’, is used in the construct state, the ה is converted to a ת, in this case it becomes ‘yirat’. When a noun precedes another noun, the first noun is in the construct state, meaning it is connected to the second noun-two words together forming one concept. An example of a construct noun can be found in the phrase אלהים מלכות ‘malkut elohiym’ (kingdom of God).” Notice the first noun, “kingdom,” belongs to the second noun, “God.”
Throughout the OT, in every instance the first word in the construct belongs to the second word of the construct (Yahweh). So, if we think the word “fear” in the construct phrase “fear of Yahweh” is “OUR” fear and not Yahweh’s, we have no proper comprehension of ancient Hebrew. We know God cannot “fear”. As you’ve stated, “Fear (pahhad – noun)) came upon me, and trembling, and caused all my bones to shake (pahhad – verb). Job 4:14. Now I must add that an additional Hebrew verb “yara” literally means “to flow out of the gut.” So, in THIS context, the question becomes, “What flows out of the gut of Yahweh?”
Theological consensus answers – Yahweh’s teachings and His character. Now, consider the word”yir’ah” from the Hebrew perspective. The flowings “yir’ah” – (the teachings “torah” and character “ru’ahh”) of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom “hhakhmah” – (the ability to distinguish between good and bad), and an intimate relationship with the special one is understanding.
Scholarship in any discipline comes in varying degrees. An Associate is less skilled than the Bachelor, which is less than a Master, the Doctor exceeding them all. While I am impressed by your submission, your knowledge of Hebrew is obviously not that of a PHD in linguistics. Not to discourage, but to inspire you to keep researching.
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People around the world have feared many hundreds of gods for many thousands of years long before Christianity and regardless of the complications of ancient languages, the meanings, context and interpretations etc, the word fear has a basic meaning that everyone understands and the fact is that if you fear someone you must always have the feeling of being in danger.
Regardless to that, if I thought someone like your God really existed I would be fearful but I would not have any respect, however I may find some respect for Jesus, but he was simply the later passive and loving version of the violent Old Testament God.
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SKLYJD – My reply was intended to appeal to a sense of fair play by addressing the common ground we may agree upon – the scientific method. Since you state a lack of faith in “my” God, I supplied a specific rebuttal to a quite secular comprehension of linguistics. Whether or not the texts are believed to be divinely inspired has nothing to do with their translation. Egyptian, Tamil, and Sanskrit are the only languages that predate Hebrew. To the linguistic scientist, belief in the gods these people worshiped is NOT necessary. Nevertheless, an understanding of how those cultures believed is absolutely essential to proper understanding and interpretation of the language, especially where texts specifically relate to their deities.
Good science always takes into consideration evidence of things not understood or opposing theories not agreed upon. Bias and preconception must be forsaken and avoided in the process of scientific research and applied method. Whether resulting belief is founded on substantial fact or complete whim, the scientific method of linguistics endeavors to provide comprehensive, exhaustive confirmation in a logical presentation to rational thinkers, believers and infidels equally.
You applied the science of linguistics, to which I elaborated. But, rather than continuing on such commonality, you reverted to expressing your disdain for Christianity, while exposing typical ignorance of history and scientific methodology. The irony of your conclusion regarding being judged as “with the measure you use, it will be measured to you”, is that like scientific linguistics, it matters not whether you believe it or not. The fact stated therein, and by you, holds true.
Theologians call this “universal, eternal truth”, meaning it applies equally to ALL people, for ALL time. Unlike multiple other statements found in Scripture, that when properly interpreted, reveal a different application of mere “local, temporary truth”. That which was for only a specific group and time – NOT ALL. Whether one believes or not, this “universal, eternal truth” pertains to everyone, believers and non-believers alike!
Rightly conducted research utilizing pure scientific linguistics will result in the same conclusion whether the scientist is a believer or non-believer. The same is true of theology, where personal convictions and/or experience must not interfere with the scientific process. Of course, strict ethics is required to produce FACTUAL results. A little knowledge enlightens a little. Confirmation comes only from full knowledge. We all would do well to refrain from judging others who have greater knowledge of a topic – ANY topic, especially those of which you hold preconceived ideas based upon your limited knowledge and/or experience.
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Okay I get it, I am not an educated Christian or linguist within this field, however I do understand that ancient linguistic translations obviously are a part of the scientific story regarding the beliefs in gods and deities but I do not believe it is the whole story to describe the meanings of currently used words.
The point about going back before Christian beliefs is that it is well understood that during the Paleolithic periods the superstitious beliefs of supernatural beings were extremely strong with the belief of life after death in one form or another. Cannibalism was incorporated with both human and animal sacrifice that make it clear that they were part of religious roles in offerings to a higher power and of course even with the benefit of modern science certain attributes have evolved into religions today.
During those ancient times we understand as there was no Newton to explain natural events and survival was the priority of each day in their life and this would undoubtedly have accumulated into fear of an obsession of gods and deities and even into the later bronze age era they still believed the forces of gods created the Earth quakes and thunderstorms into early Christianity and I doubt fear could be described or molded into feelings of “profound adoring awed respect” that the modern Christian may enjoy in today’s scientifically understood environment.
“you reverted to expressing your disdain for Christianity, while exposing typical ignorance of history and scientific methodology.”
I was being truthful about my beliefs, something many Christians and you appear to not understand and because my comment was something you find not to your Christian liking you knee-jerk with accusing me of ignorance in history and scientific methodology.
In fact I understand the scientific methodology very well and “Good science always takes into consideration evidence of things not understood or opposing theories not agreed upon.” As you have stated, however you will agree that science is at the forefront of all human knowledge and discovery including the investigation of all the theological claims for hundreds of years. As the consensus for world leading scientists is documented in peer reviewed articles and journals, I wonder therefore why you would be so emotionally reactive and indoctrinated into the Christian ideology.
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SKLYJD – I am sincerely sorry that I offended by a “knee-jerk accusing [you] of ignorance in history and scientific methodology”. As stated, I wish merely to conduct a dialogue founded upon an aspect of mutual agreement – namely, the scientific method.
Having already ceded that you are “not an educated Christian or linguist within this field”, I expected no more than you gave, due to lack of common experience (as Christian) and of higher education (in linguistics). I appreciate your transparency and subsequent honest interest. I adamantly support your point “I do not believe it is the whole story to describe the meanings of currently used words”. Conversely, my point is that, although NOT the whole, devoid of the understanding of how & why the ancients used certain words is absolutely essential in proper comprehension of the meanings of currently used words!
With all due respect, your comment misses the crux of the matter. The reason modern day Christianity is the same as 1st century Christianity is because it is the same God (in essence, attributes, & relationship) enjoyed by both in personal interaction. Even though the circumstances, atmosphere, and cultural influences are incredibly different, the feelings and responses are the same. Of course, a non-believer cannot fathom such as reality, and I would not expect it. But, a lack of experience does not negate the experience reported by millions of others.
The ancients expressed awe and respect to God by their use of the specific Hebrew word ‘yir’ah’ (distinctly different from the word ‘pahhad’ you cited). Good science requires an honest comparison of ‘apples with apples’. Your points are well made (and legitimate for ‘pahhad’) but they are incongruent when ‘yir’ah’ is the word to be transliterated.
To address your closing – “As the consensus for world leading scientists is documented in peer reviewed articles and journals, I wonder therefore why you would be so emotionally reactive and indoctrinated into the Christian ideology”, As stated before, theology is a science, well documented. Open Theology is an international Open Access, peer-reviewed academic journal that welcomes contributions written in English addressing religion in its various forms and aspects: historical, theological, sociological, psychological, and other. The journal encompasses all major disciplines of Theology and Religious Studies, presenting doctrine, history, organization and everyday life of various types of religious groups and the relations between them. They also publish articles from the fields of Philosophy, Sociology and Psychology of Religion with dialogue between Religion and Science. Here’s a LINK = https://www.degruyter.com/view/journals/opth/opth-overview.xml.
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Thank you MJ, but no need to be sorry as being ignorant is not really anything to get offended about, I just thought you had been upset with such an answer and I apologise if you had been.
Being a child of moderate Christian parents I realised later in life this was at the time an unrecognised opportunity that offered me the freedom to make up my own mind about religions and belief. I was interacting for many years with those children who could not choose and one friend I recall was beaten black and blue by his father for simply saying he did not believe in God. Most kids that wanted freedom would not upset the families Christian apple cart, they literally had no choice and in those days the punishment was often extreme. I have had Christian friends for many years and I have some really good insights from former indoctrinated ex-priests and Christians who lost their faith over many years.
I only point out this background because even though I am not a Christian dedicated to faith or converted through childhood indoctrination I do understand something about a theists state of mind.
I understand how you would think this. “modern day Christianity is the same as 1st century Christianity is because it is the same God (in essence, attributes, & relationship) enjoyed by both in personal interaction. Even though the circumstances, atmosphere, and cultural influences are incredibly different, the feelings and responses are the same.”
I find that is far to simplistic and I cannot agree because the different atmosphere, and cultural influences are so totally different today from the bronze age. It would have had a totally different emotional and practical influence on survival and the meaning of life and that would be reflected in regards to faith and worship.
From my account the centre of ancient Israel’s religion was Yahweh called Yahwism, of course there were other deities worshiped during this time and it would be impossible to distinguish these religions as being privileged, exclusive or different in any way.
Psychologically worshipers would have to cope with stresses most citizens of the world do not have to bear. Unforeseen death, injury and property loss from war, crime, incurable diseases, Roman suppression, forced into slavery, (much worse for women) and not to mention destructive natural disasters and droughts that devastated the food crops that would have pushed the soft modern 21st century man into mental breakdown and likely into suicidal tendencies.
I do not mean to offend you or any Christians but death, destruction, genocide, slavery and some gruesome murders are highlighted within the Bible and that is exactly how tough life was. It should not be ignored, sugar coated or reconstructed by apologetics to suit their ideological views like they generally do.
Worshipers in those days were highly superstitious and who could blame them, they understood that it was a god and evil forces from the supernatural world who directed life and death and all events in their lives, (some still do today) they also understood that the naturally occurring floods, storms, thunder, lightning, earthquakes and lunar eclipses were because of an angry god, some sacrificed animals to their gods, even the Jews sacrificed animals and God commanded burnt offerings, animal sacrifices appear in the New Testament and of course the main event of the Jesus sacrifice.
I can only believe these bronze age people over 2000 years ago regardless of what god or deities they worshiped, it was with real fear and with far more realism, imagination, superstition and passion because they thought their prayers depended on their continued ultimate survival. Not so much did they emotionally respect or love their gods like modern man has the luxury to do so if he wishes.
Thank you for the link, it is a very interesting site and I will investigate it more. It has a lot of scientific content but obviously it is not a scientific peer reviewed site but mostly a justification of religious ideology in regards to the scientific answers site.
To go off topic a bit, I believe the average middle aged Christian worshiper of today is borderline agnostic, and it will not be long until they and most of the later generations of Christians go over the fence and that is due mostly to rapid scientific progress and education over the last 200 years. Modern man basically understands and makes sense of the natural scientific aspects of our planet and the knowledge will increase, but even now it truly highlights the sharp contrast between religious faith and science.
What is interesting is that neuroscience is beginning to understand the brain and the areas of the brain that is revealing more about religiously inspired techniques of meditation, practitioners’ states of consciousness and a remarkable window into how the brain changes for people to be religious or spiritual and to indulge in these kinds of practices.
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SKLYJD – Again, I appreciate your transparency and sincerely empathize with your story. I too, was reluctantly raised by an extreme Irish Catholic mother who forced me to attend parochial school until her death when I entered 9th grade. My dad was agnostic and never a persuasive influence. I get it. I knew several victims of the religious system, which led me to become very angry at God. I deserted Catholicism and was a rebellious atheist until I turned 23.
Reading your response made me realize something was missing. I should have prefaced my comment (“modern day Christianity is the same as 1st century Christianity is because it is the same God (in essence, attributes, & relationship) enjoyed by both in personal interaction. Even though the circumstances, atmosphere, and cultural influences are incredibly different, the feelings and responses are the same”) by specifying “ALL TRULY BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS”. By ‘truly born again’ I mean persons who have an ACTUAL PERSONAL ENCOUNTER with Christ. It is an experience that forever erases any doubt about God, His purpose, love, and commitment to our eternal life.
Of course, as throughout the Scripture we’re taught, apart from that genuine personal encounter and perpetual experience, it is impossible to comprehend, much less believe. Sadly, as Jesus warned, many have come ‘in His name’ and deceived many. Wolves in sheep’s clothing,they are evil influences masquerading as ministers of light.
You say, “I cannot agree because the different atmosphere, and cultural influences are so totally different today from the Bronze Age. It would have had a totally different emotional and practical influence on survival and the meaning of life and that would be reflected in regards to faith and worship”. From a purely secular, natural rationale, I must agree. But, my focus is NOT on the atmosphere or cultural influences of either age. It was, but now that I’ve encountered real spirituality, I have a different perspective, much wider horizons, and an incredible peace that passes understanding. Such simply cannot be adequately explained or properly introduced to one who has not shared in a similar enlightenment. Nevertheless, I sense an honest search for truth in you, which should not go unrewarded.
I found faith when I let go of past disappointments, anger, and rebellion at the end of my self pity and feelings of rejection. I forgave the hypocrites that led me astray, and found forgiveness as a most liberating experience. The great difference between Yahweh and all other deities is that He engaged His believers in intimate personal relationship. True faith in God is never a one-way relationship. Because He is real, He has never been far from discovering. He has promised, and I bear witness to the truth, in the day that you will search for Him with all your heart, you will find Him. He also invites you to respond as He stands at the door and knocks. When you hear His voice and open, He will come in.
You further contend about the tragedies in life, “It should not be ignored, sugar coated or reconstructed by apologetics to suit their ideological views like they generally do”. I’ve been a believer over 40 years now and the decades prior to that were no ‘cake-walk’. I’ve had more than my fair share of grief, suffering, anxiety, and depression, both before and since believing. A major difference exists now. I’m never alone to have to deal with things like I once was. Fear has been replaced by faith, and that faith is NOT something I conjured up. It was given as an unconditional gift. A constant awareness of God’s presence, His love, His commitment. It is a perpetual assurance that even in the midst of the tragedies of this life, I am victorious. That peace of mind has surpassed any human ability to fully understand, and it is precisely THAT which has continued to defy reason for over 40 years.
Miracles occur when NOTHING in the natural can be a suitable substitute. The very essence of the miraculous is that they are impossible to explain or fully comprehend. They literally ‘blow your mind’. Except you witness one personally, they are absolutely unbelievable. Otherwise, they are NOT true miracles. The multitude of counterfeit manifestations have fooled some and discourage many others, preventing faith in the genuine. But when a real miracle happens to you, it can never be denied. It is life changing and eternal. Those who claim some semblance to Christianity and now consider themselves ‘ex-Christians’, may have had exposure to false miracles, false prophets, and/or false conversions, but they NEVER truly encountered the Living God.
To return to ‘common ground’, your closing remarks (“obviously it is not a scientific peer reviewed site but mostly a justification of religious ideology in regards to the scientific answers site”) about the site I gave LINK to is naïve, based upon your obvious bias. You indicated you did not read it, yet you conclude that it is mostly a justification of religious ideology. Get real, EVERY scientific peer review confines itself within the parameters of the subject. What do you think ‘peer review’ is? Mechanics don’t depend on plumbers to authenticate their discoveries. Medical doctors don’t seek approval of lawyers. Peer groups are experts within the SAME field of scientific research!
You seem to have the right motivation in your search for significance, You’re just too many bricks short of the load so far. Keep seeking objectively, you may be surprised what lies ahead.
“What is interesting is that neuroscience is beginning to understand the brain and the areas of the brain that is revealing more about religiously inspired techniques of meditation, practitioners’ states of consciousness and a remarkable window into how the brain changes for people to be religious or spiritual and to indulge in these kinds of practices.” Google “the God gene”. Study the peer reviews on that discovery, and tell me what you think.
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I also appreciate your willingness to share your life experiences.
from what I understand beliefs in supernatural entities are rooted in the evolutionary process and one of our survival traits just as all of our emotions are and humans are susceptible to all these naturally occurring emotional states of mind, but some are more susceptible than others.
A brief explanation of why we choose what we believe. We all consciously process information to our best ability, whereas we rely on what we are taught, what we are told, hear and read and what suits our feelings, our perceptions and understanding of the world. Notwithstanding this, the major influence that drives all of the decisions we make comes from within the subconscious mind, this is a memory that stores information from the beginning of your life, information that you will not consciously recall or be aware of it’s influence.
I do not claim this is exactly how and why some people make decisions to become violent, kind, happy or suicidal because it is far more complicated than that, however disregarding psychological interference I have not come across any better explanation as to why people are guided down the path they are on.
Many people consciously require confirmation and evidence for everything they are supposed to believe and I put myself into this bracket. This is another trait driven by survival and likely to also be strongly influenced by the subconscious, therefore some people use it more than others.
Even if I forced myself to try and believe in a creator god or anything from the perceived supernatural dimension it would be an absolute impossibility, such as trying to force myself to do something against my better judgement like jumping of a cliff, this human trait for supernatural beliefs is an extremely outdated emotion for modern humans and it will not change for me unless of course the supernatural and a god was scientifically discovered, but then even if it was a fact which god would we find ?
All supernatural experiences including yours is mediated by the powerful brain that consists of about a hundred billion neurons with a thousand trillion synaptic connections between them. The brain is well equipped and more than capable of generating extraordinary experiences that are not real.
Scientists using reliable research methods have found zero evidence that supernatural entities exist. What scientists have discovered, though, are lots of reasons why people might feel they have had supernatural encounters.
I find it very difficult to believe ex-priests serving the church from between 10 to 30 years and many long term former Christians are described as “Wolves in sheep’s clothing, they are evil influences masquerading as ministers of light.” “they NEVER truly encountered the Living God.” How can an educated person believe such a blind judgement of people who had dedicated such a large portion of their lives before they understood the reality.
Of course the opposite must apply, you must understand you could never have been a committed atheist, only a non fully committed disbeliever or an agnostic at best, just as the ex priests and Christians were not committed Christians. And judging from this Biblical comment I should point out you should actually investigate the reality, however I understand that would be unlikely.
In regards to your ACTUAL PERSONAL ENCOUNTER with Christ. All experience is mediated by the powerful brain, which consists of about a hundred billion neurons with a thousand trillion synaptic connections between them, it also means that under a variety of conditions the brain is more than capable of generating extraordinary experiences that are not real.
“It is an experience that forever erases any doubt about God,” Typically a case in point as to the brain’s power.
“I found faith when I let go of past disappointments, anger, and rebellion at the end of my self pity and feelings of rejection.” “I’m never alone to have to deal with things like I once was.”
I have never felt those emotions to any extreme to become unhappy with my life and have never needed help to face reality. I am glad you have found Christ in your life, it looks as though he may have saved your life on Earth at least.
I understand the peer reviewed issue you mention, however is somewhat illogical to compare it to scientific peer reviewed journals or in fields of advancing technology.
Obviously scientific research submissions are generally addressing scientific hypothesis on limited, new or current data, identifying experimental techniques, testing and research details, identifying progress in a certain scientific field etc and will be peer reviewed by experts in that field, where I might add up to 97% submissions are rejected.
For example, a paper regarding Catholicism in any shape or form is confined to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, it may be a good learning site for religious scholars, priests and anyone else but is very unlikely to generate anything new, or to advance and change the doctrines of many centuries.
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SKLYJD replied –“…whereas we rely on what we are taught, what we are told, hear and read and what suits our feelings, our perceptions and understanding of the world.” Before we challenge “what we are taught”, and objectively scrutinize the factual legitimacy of those claims, we tend to be swayed and unilaterally influenced by such. As for what we “hear and read and what suits our feelings”, these are the product of human emotions, forever prone to change, completely outside the realm of substantial fact resulting from prudent scientific research. “Our perceptions and understanding of the world” can be limited to our personal experiences as you indicate, or they can be a combination of both substantiated fact and independent perspective.
When “substantial fact” has been authenticated through precise scientific research, an idiosyncratic acceptance can be justified. Only when the two agree, can legitimate assurance of one’s distinct convictions be validated.
The majority of people do not pursue truth with sufficient fervor. Most are content to accept what they are taught, told, hear and read if it suits their feelings. However, diligent seekers hunt for higher knowledge. They equip themselves with the proper tools relative to their chosen field of interest. They gain degrees in higher education, at the highest levels, becoming ‘experts’ in their sphere. Obviously, only a minority of people ever desire such competence, much less actually achieve it.
My point being, that you are right about the opening quote, pertaining to the majority of people. Nevertheless, it does NOT apply to the few who invest themselves to the life-long discipline of scientific methodology without bias, prejudice, and the forsaking of unsubstantiated prior influences. True objectivity considers ALL perspectives, theories, and teachings EQUALLY without allowing personal ‘feelings’ to blur a clear vision. The final analysis must be determined by whatever the culmination of ALL gathered evidence proves. Most people do not care to make such extreme investments of time, talent, and self to reach the perpetual convictions of truth that such science can provide. While most may rest on the laurels received from others, I chose to discover my own based on life-long scientific research.
You stated, “I have not come across any better explanation as to why people are guided down the path they are on”. Those who continue “down the path they are on” without OBJECTIVELY questioning such path, prove their contentment to resume their direction. Those who have not followed my mission by experiencing the exact steps that I have taken to arrive here, are not capable of comprehending what I discovered and experience. I know that, they cannot begin to comprehend it. It is like speaking an unlearned foreign language to them. They hear, but they cannot understand. If a challenge to faith, hope, ideology, and life, doesn’t result in an intense quest for truth, the necessary crises that encourages the commitment to deeper research will never arise.
You surmise that science cannot prove God and “even if it was a fact which god would we find?”. That backwards approach will never produce legitimate results. If you want to study snowflakes, you’re doomed to fail if you search for them in the middle of the desert in July. When searching for God, you cannot expect to find Him among the ‘gods’. As long as your unilateral expectation of God is that there are many, you have not the fundamental understanding that God is so far above and beyond any and all concepts or imaginations related to man’s idea of gods. There is only ONE, ALMIGHTY, ETERNAL, and OMNIPOTENT. To search for HIM one must begin with THAT definition of GOD. Apart from that primary concession, there is no hope of ever escaping polytheism, atheism, or agnosticism. You cannot expect to find God by relying on your experience with those who claim to have right knowledge of God. Only God can introduce God. Believe human rationale , or believe God. Of course, it is a free will choice.
If the limited knowledge of what others have wrongly taught keeps you from believing evidence that supernatural entities exist, then by choice you remain locked in your self-imposed box of personal phenomenological realm. I broke free when I turned my anger away from God and focused it against all the lies that had created my disappointments. Of course human representatives were flawed, How/why did I ever think otherwise?
I dedicated myself to a scientific pursuit of truth. It took some time to research and properly evaluate all the scientific evidence that biologists, archeologists, astronomers, chemists, physicists, and theologians provide. I found an incredible ‘dove-tail’ where ALL of them agree about the compilation of facts. In the subsequent 40+ years of further study, I’ve found nothing to contradict my findings or give legitimate reason to abandon my convictions. Unlike the discouragement and resentment I experienced when I first discovered hypocrisy and intentional deceit among the religious, I know now that the truth is the opposite of the lies. Anything less than the whole truth and nothing but the truth is a lie. Just as there is only real truth when it is absolute, there is only one God. Anything/everything else is a lie. What you chose to accept, will remain consistent with your sincere desire to know the truth and the fever with which you pursue it. Perhaps more reliance on the positive experiences of true believers rather than the negative reports of self-proclaimed ‘ex-Christians’ may be a consideration. The entire Protestant Movement started with a disgruntled ‘ex-Catholic’ priest!
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“As for what we “hear and read and what suits our feelings”, these are the product of human emotions”
Yes this is where it really ends for religious faith. When a person has gone as far to feel emotional connections to anything including an ideological organisation that is often the result, no questions at the end of the day, game over, regardless of any facts or contrary claims to their doctrine. Try talking sense to an highly strung emotional person, it is often most pointless.
Of course this emotional aspect works on children much easier than adults, hence the emphasis on indoctrination of children by all religions. Most adults that convert take far more work and most may even ask difficult questions, but most that do convert have one leg over the fence anyway, even if they were not aware of it.
“The majority of people do not pursue truth with sufficient fervor. Most are content to accept what they are taught, told, hear and read if it suits their feelings.” You are correct, however truth is always distorted when emotionally involved in an ideological world.
Take biological evolutionary principles for example, it is an indisputable science after 150 years of testing, but how many indoctrinated Christians tell me it is a hoax, a conspiracy to destroy religions or manufactured by Satan, just how distorted can your brain get? Or take Trump supporters for example who defend and act on every stupid thing he has said and done. This can only be the result of pure emotional support, the brain has been physically changed with a degree of plasticity, neural pathways and biochemicals, science has proved this is what happens. But again any facts about neurological science is up against strong emotional ideological barriers that can distort truth and facts to the point of ridiculousness.
“My point being, that you are right about the opening quote, pertaining to the majority of people. Nevertheless, it does NOT apply to the few who invest themselves to the life-long discipline of scientific methodology without bias, prejudice, and the forsaking of unsubstantiated prior influences.True objectivity considers ALL perspectives, theories, and teachings EQUALLY without allowing personal ‘feelings’ to blur a clear vision.”
I cannot agree more, however I doubt that anyone that disciplined exists on planet Earth to fit that bill. You are correct with the next comment that the final analysis is based on all the gathered evidence. And keeping that word “evidence” in mind during your long scientific research. If you looked at the scientific evidence it is substantial evidence such as evolution that is constantly being upgraded as we learn more and is scrutinised by the millions of scientists who collectively discover the facts and they are without argument the overwhelming experts on the planet in the subject of explaining “reality” even more so than priests 🙂
I fail to understand how scientific reality and decades of evidence can take a second seat to the supernatural characters within religious circles.
“The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. So to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that which is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms – this knowledge, this feeling is at the centre of true religiousness.” (Barnett, 1964)
I feel even though this passage may be religiously inspired by this writer, his “sensation of the mystical” sums up yours and many theists experiences. God worship is truly a primitive emotion because we still exist as he said in “primitive form” and we do not know any better. But in fact we are starting to know better through decades of modern scientific facts and education evolving populations into secular beliefs. The more profound the subject matter becomes it seems the murkier the discussion.
“There is only ONE, ALMIGHTY, ETERNAL, and OMNIPOTENT. Apart from that primary concession, there is no hope of ever escaping polytheism, atheism, or agnosticism.”and “Of course, it is a free will choice.
Spoken like a true theist of many religions, however I could not call it free will. Sure I can become anything and be convincing if I chose to force myself for long enough but it would always be a forced will and I could only be pretending as successful indoctrination would fail just like wanting to believe in a flat Earth where the supporters say:
“Anything/everything else is a lie.”
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“The reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord is the beginning and the principal and choice part of knowledge [its starting point and its essence]; but fools despise skillful and godly Wisdom, instruction, and discipline. (Prov.1:7 AMP)
“Fear” is translated from the Hebrew word יִרְאַ֣ת (pronounced yir-ah’). It means “reverence, piety” (Brown-Driver-Brigg’s Dictionary)
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Please read my comments above.
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What’s interesting is, when you have a proper “fear” of the Lord, there’s nothing left to be afraid of!
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Exactly! Our God is greater then all of our fears.
Kind of an interesting question posed by sklyjd when he says, “Back in the bronze age fear did mean real fear as life was usually short lived…”
Ironic, it’s really only in modern times that we have such huge issues with fear, including things like PTSD and anxiety disorders. In fact, now that we’re living much longer, protected from many diseases, and not being eaten by tigers, it often seems as if we have grown even more fearful. Back in the day, we drank out of a garden hose, didn’t have seatbelts, and often rode in the back of a pick up truck. Today people are terrified of such things. Parents would probably be reported. I think that the safer we’ve become, the more fearful we’ve gotten.
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Amen, IB. The distinction you make is critically important. And, from seeing some of the comments here from the godless “experts” and correcters of all that is Christian, so is the last part of the verse…. “but fools despise skillful and godly Wisdom, instruction, and discipline.” 🙂
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Yes Mel, everyone is a fool who disagrees with you, even if you have to make it up as you go along.
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sklyjd said: May 28, 2020 at 2:05 am
“Yes Mel, everyone is a fool who disagrees with you, even if you have to make it up as you go along”.
It should occur to you if you are truly objective, that it is you who are guilty of “making it up as you go along”. You seem to rest on your inadequate sophomoric attempt at research. While the little you provided was accurate, it was NOT Exhaustive, and insufficient for you to conclude your theory as fact. There is so much more information to be discovered as you “go along”.
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Mel has been accused of making up stuff as he goes by other ex-Christians, so who am I to argue, and in fact bans anybody from his site who does not tow the Christian line, so why have a public site?
And anyone who is so convinced to judge those like myself who are not Christians as fools has simply confirmed himself a fool by his own doctrine.
Matthew 7, NIV. “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
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Amen and Amen. I can’t add a single word to the Truth you just shared. Thank you.
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Rightly said wisdom cannot be imparted by presenting facts. It can only be realised through once own effort towards exploration. Great post
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