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churchians, hierarchies, humor, insanitybytes22, maturity, pop culture Christianity, power, rants, social status
“The unteachables,” I like that, reminds me of gangsters and the mafia.
Recently I had a little discussion at John Branyan’s blog about “mature Christians.” Let me tell you, you will never hear me speak of “baby Christians” versus “mature Christians” as if that were a real thing. You know why?
First rule of Mature Christian club, we don’t ever talk about Mature Christian club. Or maybe that was fight club?Whatever. My point being, I totally reject these man made, hierarchal roles that the disciples themselves actually argued about in the Bible.
Branyan said, “I’m not sure why you’re making a case against Christians maturing in the faith. Maturity doesn’t lead to arrogance or joyless living.“
Yeah, actually it does! So called “maturity,” leads to arrogance and joyless living. Jesus never said, come unto me as a “mature Christian,” He said, “come unto me as a little child.”
A bit tragic but darkly comical too, this past week so called “mature Christians” spent all their time arguing about how Kanye West wasn’t really saved, how the biggest threat to the Western church is Beth Moore, and whether or not the Baby Yoda should be baptized.
Now we could argue that these are all immature, “baby Christians,” except many of them, like John MacArthur and John Piper, are actually pastors and theologians in their late 80’s. You know what these kind of “mature Christians” do? Practice arrogance and joyless living in order to try to hang onto their power and social status.
Yep! That’s all that is, Christians as the self appointed gate keepers of a private country club, trying to keep out the alleged riff raff. These are just human hierarchies and power plays rising to the surface like clotted cream.
Also, they often promote false teachings. Yep! Those who often shriek the loudest about false teachers, are often responsible for perverting scripture and passing it along until they become distorted into wild tales and vast urban legends. Those pastors aren’t entirely to blame for this, I mean at any time people could just pick up a Bible for themselves and check it out. Go to God directly instead of to some idolatrous Christian celebrity of the day? Just saying.
Matthew 23:8-9 says, “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.” It’s in the Woe chapter, as in “woe to you, you fools and blind guides….”
Those wild tales and vast urban legends must be untaught, unlearned. No, nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say you’re going to hell because you got a tattoo. What idiot told you that?? No, “I am not my brother’s keeper” is not a commandment! Those are the words of a murderer and God didn’t accept that explanation. What do you mean Jesus doesn’t like you because, “cleanliness is next to Godliness?” Who told you that?? I don’t see that phrase anywhere in the Bible. And on and on it goes, so, so many stumbling blocks given to others by so called, “mature Christians.”
I often want to scream and tear my hair out in sheer frustration over how much unteaching needs to happen. So, so many tenured pew warmers, lukewarm cultural Christians, and pop culture pastor icons need to engage in some serious unlearning and stop passing along the misery.
It is nothing but arrogance and joyless living that is currently bitterly cynical about Kanye West visiting a prison and Beth Moore inspiring women. Like wow, you can almost smell the bile of sour grapes coming from all these self appointed, “mature Christians.”
Now, I’m all for growing and progressing in faith, but I’ve found out that’s not really up to us at all. In fact, if you think you’re the one doing it all, you’re probably part of the problem. When God wants to level up the whole video game, hold onto your hat and get ready for an adventure, because it sure isn’t going to be anything like earning badges at a girl scout meeting.
Proverbs 26:12 says, “Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.” Oh ouch, so much for “Mature Christian Club.”
Be a fool for the Lord! Be crazy and madly in love with Jesus. Share you wisdom as gently and humbly as you can. Love others. Always listen and remain teachable. Don’t believe everything you think. These are the real rules for so called, “Mature Christian club.”
Flat out, if you got saved 30 years ago or you got saved yesterday, you are just as saved. Those of us who have been riding this ferris wheel of life for a while have developed enough humility to understand that when God levels up the whole game, you might as well have just been born again yesterday anyway…..
Photo by Garon Piceli on Pexels.com
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Wow, right between the eyes.
Maturity, in the physical sense, can also make one stiff and achy and hard of hearing and visually impaired and crabby… just sayin’ …
Thanks for the encouragement. I will continue to laugh and have fun in church (“FUN”?! Yep, fun.) and let out a “WOO!” when the song lyrics mention the Resurrection.
Leviticus 19:28 does mention tattoos, but in warning God’s people not to imitate the heathen. I doubt any of those heathen had a tattoo with a scripture reference or a cross. God cares about what’s in the heart. I find that asking about the significance of someone’s tattoos is a great way to start a conversation about what matters to that person, and letting God take it from there. 😉
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Continue to laugh and have fun, and let out a “woo,” I love that! Yes, absolutely, that’s the spirit. There are so many great older people who have really shown me how it’s done, by doing exactly that, having fun and celebrating the goodness of God. I’m all for that kind of “maturity.”
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Now isn’t that image of a baby yoda the cutest thing— makes want to get one… but about this maturity vs … well,…what is the opposite??— what would that be.. youth?? Anyway— I’m pretty certain we are continually growing in our faith— learning , falling, getting back up each and every day— I don’t think one ever graduates from the school of Christian growth— nope, no diplomas awarded there — I would dare say folks like Billy Graham, Mother Teresa, those Christians who lived long lives, would be the first to tell you that they knew less and less the longer they lived as God revealed more and more that was new with each passing day….maybe it’s humility rather than maturity 🙃
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Amen, Julie! Humility rather than maturity, love that. There’s some real truth to that, wisdom is all about realizing you know less and less than you first thought you did.
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It seems important to me now that the blind need the furniture in the same place all the time. The room must never vary or it becomes a trip hazard. The blind must have the room memorized and feel secure that it will never change or they can’t rest mentally at feel secure emotionally. Those that care for and love the blind see that nothing is ever moved or an obstacle for the blind. Yes, real love cares for the blind and enables their perceptions of their “truths” but Jesus called the Pharisees the blind leading the blind and that wasn’t a compliment. There is so much more to navigate than just furniture nailed to the floor.
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Oh, awesome! That’s a great comment and a wonderful analogy. You’ve described the problem so well.
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Pingback: The Unteachables……. — See, there’s this thing called biology… | Talmidimblogging
I definitely know I am not a mature Christian. I say this because God treats me like a baby! And I very often cry like one when I see and hear other people being treated as if they have nothing between their ears. When I say God treats me like a baby I mean He is the one who makes sure I have everything I need including spiritual food.
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Ahh, amen! That’s very sweet. We are definitely His children and He is a good Father. A big problem I often see, we tend to forget that and instead act as if God is the distant CEO of a big corporation and everyone is now competing for a promotion and benefits. Much better to understand your Dad owns the whole company and He loves you.
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Amen xx
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I couldn’t find anything about John Piper in respect to the Beth Moore controversy-thingie. But MacArthur. I listen to him in the morning just because he’s on, and now I know a little better what he’s about. I disagree with a lot of what he says, but I know his intention is to uphold the Bible as the authority. But he can speak in harsh ways, unbecoming ways, and sound very strident, disrespectful, and at times mocking. My impression: he wants to use humor but doesn’t really know how. He’s pretty sure that his study of the word of God has led him to right understanding of it, and anyone who sees things differently is wrong. He’s very black and white in this.
Could he be right? I think of the prophets in the Old Testament and almost to a man they were disdained by the culture of their day. So our reaction to MacArthur’s style can be one thing, I think, and to his message, a different thing. Because he just might be a prophet (which he doesn’t believe is an office in the church any more—kind of ironic) to our culture.
I have done a number of Beth Moore video Bible studies, and I think she’s a gifted teacher. That being said, I don’t know how someone can ignore what the Bible says about women not speaking in church. This does not just appear in one place, and it’s not the cultural thing so many people try to make it because in one passage, Paul ties it clearly to the fact that Eve did what she did. So, kind of, part of the curse is a limit on what we women are to do when it comes to being authorities in the Church.
IB, you teach here on your blog. I do on mine, but we aren’t speaking as authorities in the Church. We are speaking as believers saved by grace, and that’s for everyone, everywhere. So I think there are places for women to minister, no doubt. But I don’t see why we need to step over a clearly laid out Biblical guideline.
I would never tell Beth Moore to “go home,” as apparently MacArthur did. That’s just rude and completely ignores all her writing and speaking that is not crossing the Biblical guideline. But I don’t know that he doesn’t have something to say to us today. Sadly, his strident tone is like fingernails on a chalkboard that makes people cover their ears to what he’s saying.
Becky
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“So, kind of, part of the curse is a limit on what we women are to do when it comes to being authorities in the Church.”
Here’s my problem with that line of thinking, Becky. We were once all under a curse, hence the need for a Savior. So how come women are still under this curse? Did the sacrifice of the cross not cover us? Did Jesus die for men only, leaving Eve’s descendants behind and still trapped under an eternal curse?? I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible.
I actually never cared much about women pastoring and I was quite content to let Scripture say what many people believe it says, but after what I have seen, the ugliness, the hatred, the pride of arrogant men, I am now uncertain. Also, those who believe Scripture says women shouldn’t teach and preach are actually a tiny minority within modern Western Christianity. Many denominations believe no such thing, many theologians have interpreted that differently, and all through history women have indeed been about the business of preaching and teaching. We have many who died as martyrs, who were executed by the authorities, and archaeological digs that show churches happening in women’s homes.
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Well, we know women were important in the first church. Paul refers to the two women in Philippi who were fighting as his fellow workers whose names are in the book of life. Lydia was a key person in his evangelistic success and Peter referred to “she who is in Babylon, chosen together with you.” There are many others, like Timothy’s mother and grandmother. I did a survey once of all the references to women in the Bible because I think a lot of people today have false ideas about God’s view of women.
But saying that women were important in the spreading of the gospel is not the same as saying they were leading the churches, acting as pastors and elders.
Regarding the curse, of course the blood of Jesus cleanses women just the way it does men. But men still have to work by the sweat of their brow, snakes still crawl on their bellies, women still endure pain in childbirth (apart from medical help), and these earthly bodies still die. Christ didn’t reverse the curse. He gave us new life, not a return to the old.
And honestly, I don’t care what various denominations do or believe. The Bible is pretty clear on this. Besides the several verses directly addressing women, there’s also the passages that give instruction about elders, and they say a man with one wife. Not a woman with one husband. I know that could be chalked up as cultural, like the head covering and not adorning ourselves with gold jewelry or wearing fine dresses. The fact is, those particulars were still teaching a principle and should still be obeyed, not tossed out (submission, in the first instance; and moderation in adornment and focus on the spiritual in the other).
That women have our own special function in the church and in the home should not be tossed out either. I get really upset, as you probably know, when people think women are only important when we do a man’s job. That just makes me burn inside. As if women don’t have intrinsic value as women without having to don the skin of a man and get up front and be the leader.
It feels a lot like the OT people complaining to Moses that they should also be allowed to burn incense in the tabernacle when in fact they weren’t priests. God clearly has some jobs for some people, and other jobs for other people. Why isn’t that OK with us? Why should we kick against His plan?
I do think a lot of men have abused this distinction and done exactly what Peter says not to: they lord it over those under their charge. Some also “minister” for “sorted gain.” Because some disobey or abuse the position they were given (like the priests in Jesus’s day) doesn’t mean we should ignore the instruction. Paul says in another context, ” If some disbelieve, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?” Answer, “May it never be, Rather let God be found true though every man be found a liar.”
I think that’s what we need to cling to: God’s way, God’s word, is true, so all the other people around us may be straying, disbelieving, lying, but that doesn’t alter His instruction.
Becky
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And I just thought of another example. Aaron and Miriam came against Moses because of his Cushite wife. But the issue seems to have been secondary to the real problem: they wanted Moses’s job. But of the two, only Miriam was punished. That’s always bothered me. Until right now. I think that’s a pretty clear indicator that she had no business desiring the leader role. Otherwise, why only Miriam and not Aaron also?
Becky
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Good discussion, Becky! I think Miriam is an interesting example, because in Exodus 20 she is actually named a prophetess and leads all the women in worship with her tambourine. That heightened responsibility and leadership is probably also why she is struck down first when she complains about Moses and his wife. It’s not because she is a female trying to usurp Moses’ authority, it’s because she is a prophetess criticizing God Himself.
You are right about how some men have lorded it over women or abused scripture for their own purposes. They say it’s about women not pastoring churches and yet that has now evolved into women shouldn’t teach either. So now the attacks are directed at people like Beth Moore who isn’t a pastor. Bloggers, book authors, women leading bible studies. I mean Twitter is full of these idiot pastors wearing tee shirts saying “go home,” a direct reference to their support of Jmac’s rude comments. When I see men displaying such a lack of integrity, I begin to doubt everything else they may have interpreted or taught about Scripture. This isn’t Biblical, this isn’t Jesus, this is just about fear and control.
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Well, you could be right about Miriam. I’ll have to go back and read the account. Still doesn’t make sense that God would discipline the prophetess but not the priest for doing the exact same thing!. Seems like there must be some other distinction between them, and of course I trust God to do what is right. He just chose not to explain Himself here, and that’s fine.
I agree again about all the rude comments directed at a woman who teaches the word of God. As you say, she’s not a pastor, so I’m not sure why all the criticism has been rained down upon her. The first time I was ever blocked from a site was when I defended her to someone who claimed she was heretical. I don’t agree with everything she writes, but all the studies I’ve been in have been beneficial and Biblical. When I hear this criticism, I scratch my head and wonder why all the rancor directed at her. I think there are plenty of other writers and speakers who should be chastised or reproved for their inappropriate handling of God’s word, but I don’t see anyone telling them to go home. And some I’m thinking about are women. So not sure what’s behind this uncharitable way of speaking to and about Beth Moore.
I did wonder if there might not be some backlash because of the feminist attack on men (and some justifiable, but some that is more a power grab). I think some men aren’t sure of their role any more. And this may be a push back by some of these leader types within the church who are feeling threatened. I don’t know. Just a guess. And it still doesn’t answer, Why Beth Moore. Maybe it’s her denomination. But why are pastors from other denominations jumping in and making comments. It’s a shame, especially since the Bible is clear how a Christian is to deal with another Christian who has sinned against him. If these pastors think Beth Moore has sinned against them, they should go to her, not put out rude comments on YouTube, on tee shirts, and in other social media. If they don’t think she’s sinned against them, they need to stop gossiping about her!
(And yes, good discussion!! 🙂 )
Becky
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I would like to read that exchange but WP has selected me as the poster boy of misfits/ have no idea why blogs disappear from my contac list/ geez.
Anyway, maturity is good if tempered with Christian graces- after all, kittens do become cats. Lol
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Ahhh yes, the WordPress woes. Twitter is even worse! Yikes, I go to bed and the next day I discover they have edited my entire newsfeed. So, many blogs I must place in my “favorites” in my browser or else memorize their names and do a Google or a Bing search. WP is totally unreliable and there are obviously shenanigans at work. 🙂
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I check my blogroll because when an author deletes their page, valuable info is lost. (Why I -for the most part- completely repost items)
I will use “Press this” but not “Reblog”, it allows excerpt insertions, and other options. Good when the source are Alpha dogs; who hold copyright exclusivity, being more interested in their web ranking than in spreading the information.
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Well along these lines u would be pleased to know that your site is bookmarked as an app on my phone.
Your net worth and stature just increased demonstrably, Twits and WP be dmaned . Lol
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Thanks, Colostorm! I am honored. 😁
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“Go to God directly instead of to some idolatrous Christian celebrity of the day?” Just saying
That is the root of the problem in Christendom; You said it all, but that should be a statement, nit a question. Your quote from Proverbs 26:12 is well noted.
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This is one reason I like Pope Francis. When he was elected to become head of the largest Church in the world, he took the name of Francis of Assisi, one of most humble and childlike in his faith on record. I recall during one of his first papal visits to a poor country, the local parish had a custom of ‘foot-washing’. Francis knelt down and washed the feet of some children—I mean, here’s a man with FIVE doctoral degrees in Theology doing this. I remember that incident because it caused a firestorm of anger among the ‘mature Christians’ that a Pope would actually imitate Christ’s example of service.
Another story that didn’t make the news much: when the Pope visited Mexico, he waded into a river after a Mass at a local Church and baptized several people personally. I think this is one reason why so many ‘mature Christians’ despise Francis; because his behavior contrasted with their shows them up for what they are.
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Amen! I really appreciate Pope Francis and his evident heart for the Lord. I’m astounded by how much fake news and false accusations he is subjected too.
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@IB
Like your post. Some very good thoughts. Also like John MacArthur and John Piper. Don’t know what those gentlemen said exactly. Have not had an opportunity to read Branyan’s post.
Are there mature Christians? The Bible does tell us to strive for maturity. We do have to cooperate in our sanctification. So I expect some of us are more mature than others, but who is that? Don’t exactly know, but we are supposed to judge a tree by its fruit. That’s complex because we bare fruit over a life time. How many people can we know so well we know all that they have done. Moreover, in this fallen world, it seems even the most respected Christians occasionally bear rotten fruit, and that rotten fruit draws so much attention.. Hence, judging others is a perilous art.
That’s why I suppose we are told to judge as we would be judged, but we find it so difficult. The understanding, grace and mercy our Savior shows us does not come easily — we cannot do it — to any of us. It requires a degree of maturity none of us have. Children seem to have it, but they don’t. That becomes obvious, ironically, when children reach what we call maturity.
God sure has the strangest sense of humor.
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Wishing you a Happy Thanksgiving! ❤
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Happy Thanksgiving, Anna! 🙂
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