So this little meme went through my facebook feed and it’s not bad, it just didn’t sit well with me. I happen to have spent a great deal of time wrestling with “God’s will” and I think I now have Jacob’s funny hip to prove it.
Why do we always assume it is God’s will for us to suffer?? Why do we insist on giving God the credit only for the uncomfortable parts of our story?
It occurs to me that this is really just a matter of perspective, ours, which is usually self absorbed about the personal injustice part, distorted because we are obsessed over the unfairness, the false accusations, as if to really say, I was a faithful Christian and look what God did to me.
Alas, I guess it was just “God’s will.”
We could just as easily rewrite each of these stories to more accurately represent “God’s will.” John was exiled, but he was also protected, kept alive, one of the few (or only) disciples to have died of old age. The Lord’s will was to give him great Revelation, visions, and a long life.
Paul was jailed, but jail is not the Apostle Paul’s legacy, it is not his whole story. We are not reading Paul’s words a few thousand years later because it was “God’s will” he go to jail. It was God’s will that He write his letters, that he advance the kingdom like no other, that he be saved. Let us not forget that road to Damascus moment.
And rather then simply saying “it was God’s will that Jesus was executed,” it was actually God’s will that Jesus died, was resurrected on the third day, rose, broke the curse and reconciled all of mankind! Love conquered all and He is now seated in victory. That was “God’s will.”
3 John 2 says, “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” That is “God’s will” for us.
God’s will for us is reconciliation with Him, relationship, intimacy, no more tears, life and life abundant, and life eternal. God is not handing out crappy jobs, unhappy lives, and sad bank accounts. That’s the result of our man made worldly system and assorted personal issues.
I’m not a fan of the so called prosperity gospel, but I have to say, it’s a vast improvement over the anti prosperity gospel! God is good, His will for us is good, His abundance is good, the riches of His grace are glorious.
I love the tale of Jacob wrestling with the angel all night long. I want my blessing and I’m not letting go until I get it. Or the persistent widow who is so repetitive and annoying the judge finally rules in her favor just to shut her up.
The Bible also reminds us, you have not because you ask not…..
Good Morning IB. I agree with you, and have no trouble agreeing. I also have a question, hoping you will help me with your great wisdom.
I have been pondering a passage in Isaiah for a few days, attempting to keep it all in context. I am probably missing things, but here it is.
“Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.””
Isaiah 30:20-21 NIV
(About the Lord giving the bread of adversity and the water of affliction)
Thanks IB. I await your insightful response.
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You are awesome George and certainly don’t need my wisdom, but I really do love to chat with you about these things. 🙂
So as to the “bread of adversity” and the “water of affliction,” we are designed to be dragon slayers, warriors, conquerors. God is good to allow us some struggles, some challenges, some work to help us grow, to keep us healthy, to keep us excited. It’s a strange thing, but in the Western world we have some of the highest rates of depression and suicide. You would expect to see that in war torn countries where famine and strife is a way of life, but that isn’t the case. Our excessive Western comfort is not only bad for us physically, it’s not good for our mental and spiritual health either.
Here where I live some of our highest suicide rates are among older men, retired, kind of in the prime of their life, but they lost their work, (their affliction and adversity) which was their whole identity. Many of our younger people getting caught up in addiction are going through the same thing, a loss of identity, community, connection, and purpose.
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Thanks IB. Struggles do help us grow, and give strength. I have seen too often as well, if people think and feel they have no purpose in life after retirement, they waste away. They waste physically and mentally. During my years volunteering at the Drop In, as well as being in Street Ministry, I could see that in youth and young adults also.
If they have no good purpose in life, they create a purpose, which is not always good.
So we can consider work a God allowed / given: struggle / affliction / adversity. All for our good.
Thanks IB. I knew you would carry me through that. God Bless.
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God is in a good mood, all the time. My sense it is yes/and but not either/or. Even in our suffering, we have all the riches of God, our loving Father.
Thanks for the insight.
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As I’m currently down for the count (as in literally on the floor) with a herniated disc—- I’m “getting” the suffering part— I’m all for the rejoicing part to come my way !!!
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I’m so sorry, Julie! Praying for the Lord’s grace and healing to invade that disk and take away all the inflammation and pain. In Jesus’ name we pray for alignment and a healthy spine.
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Thank you IB— I’ve got to get back on grandma caring duties in about a week and a half— lifting and toting!
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Having had a five year stint in the funeral industry… you can toss onto the “It was God’s will” heap, death. Likely the most ill-explained, unexplained. mis-explained, part of trying to grasp human spirituality. Mostly because we place a value on the how and why our loved one’s are “called to God”. Aunt Edna dies at the ripe old age of 80 of a heart attack or cancer we more easily accept that kind of sorrow a lot more than trying to explain away the loss of your daughter to torture and rape by some sadistic serial killer.. “it was God’s will”? There’s nothing left of your family to bury after a fiery plane crash incinerated them… “it was God’s will”? Your husband dies from loss of blood after a shark bites off his leg during a casual swim in the ocean while on holiday in Hawaii… “it was God’s will”. You exit from the convenience gas station store in time to see a car running through the intersection, out of control, skidding into the gas pumps, pinning your sister against a pump as she was casually filling up her car, and explode into a huge fireball, and reduce her to nothing… “it was God’s will”. I’ve heard all these spiritual “dismissives” at wakes.. even used them myself when I perceived someone might benefit from it in their time of grief.
How about we toss into that.. witnessing the Holocaust from the inside? I’m surprised anyone came out of that still a believer.
I recall removing a deceased mother and her 8 year old daughter from an accident scene on the nearby interstate. Our funeral home was located in a very rural county in AZ and the only such facility for 100 miles. People pass by on their way to destinations in CA. Few stopped in our town intentionally. That was the destination of the mother and her daughter. It took nearly 2 hours for some family to arrive… one being the husband/father. He was in our lobby crying and grieving profusely, as one might expect. A member of the clergy came in that the father seemed to recognize. To my shock, he actually said something like “it was God’s will”. I couldn’t help but sarcastically mumble in my head, “Yeah, buddy, it was God’s will.. so just write it off as divine intervention, suck it up, and we’ll see you in church on Sunday.”
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@doug
Many people will sympathize with your observations, myself included.
You speak of what is all too common- how can God stand idle in the midst of such human tragedies and grief.
Then you have the inexcusable wisecracks at the most inappropriate times by people who should know better- ‘it was God’s will…’. even before the bodies are cold, or even before the remains can be found.
Takes a bit of humanity to know that one grieving does not want to hear a lecture on God’s will.’
There is a time to mourn/ a time to laugh/ etc.
That said- there is a HUGE difference between whether God PLANNED such examples that you give, versus what He ALLOWS.
The two are not twins- and when is in the right frame of mind- this may be a better time to discuss such things as WHY the entire creation groans- because of the aftermath that sin has introduced.
But there are no easy asserts- yet some are better than others, namely that God is ultimately and always good.
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Ok.. I generally don’t like to get into spiritual discussion because I consider it a personal choice.. but.. since I opened this up….
You suggest that God is ultimately “good”. Good for whom? You are into semantics regarding what God “planned” vs. what he “allows”. The end result for mankind is, what’s the difference if the end result is what it is.
If you ask me (and likely no one is) the supreme test of faith is emotionally weathering the death of a loved one, especially an unexpected death… not what might or might not occur in common everyday life. Why am I thinking here, “Oh God, please spare me this pain that you’ve inflicted upon me.” when in fact, He didn’t listen to his own son’s cries of just that.
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He listened to His own Son’s cries, Doug. He was right there with Him! Jesus did not suffer alone, He was not forsaken. On the cross Jesus is likely speaking prophetically, David’s words from Psalm 22, “God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” That’s not a statement of fact nor an accusation, that’s declaring what was prophesized so many years ago. It is a bible verse. Jesus is often called the son of David, marking His lineage, but also marking the prophetic nature of His predicted coming. The end of Psalm 22 validates what Jesus was saying when He declares, “it is finished.” The last verse is, “they will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!”
God listened. God heard Him. The Father did not abandon the Son. We “feel” that when we are hit by unexplainable grief, but it is not the truth. That pain of separation, that shock, that sense of abandonment, cause us to feel rejected and alone, but that is not a fact, that is not a truth, and it’s not biblical. God did not forsake His Son and He does not forsake us either.
I really appreciated your comment, your experiences in the funeral business. That would be tough, a lot of grief all around you, a lot of trying to make sense of what feels so senseless.
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Well, thanks. As I alluded to, in all the religious discussions on various Conservative blogs that I follow, little is devoted to the spiritual interpretation of death, the meaning, yet that element is so much about what it is to be human, as is other aspects like love, and reproduction.
I find it interesting though… I queried the spiritual aspect of death, citing the seeming contrast with the idea of “God’s will” or God’s plan” in the midst of the human agony of grief, yet you focused on my remark about God’s Son crying out. Colorstorm replied in kind acknowledging the apparent contrast… yet carried it no further. I realize you all know scripture and there’s a verse for all seasons in the Bible. But what about death/unexpected death are we supposed to find solace in the Bible?
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I focused on the part about Jesus not being abandoned by His Father on the cross, because that is such a prevalent misconception and it is foundational, it can really shape our feelings and perceptions about God and also about the nature of suffering and death.
We can find solace in the bible by understanding that death for us is now simply transitional, much like birth was. Our bodies die but we continue. We can also see how Jesus wept too, that He understood our grief, and gave His own life so that we might live resurrected, too.
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I’ll not disagree one bit. But we were discussing God’s will/God’s plan as it relates to untimely tragic death of loved ones or even simply fellow human beings. “I’m sorry your young son was killed in a traffic accident and his body was damaged so badly it’s a closed casket, but he’s in a better place with God.” I’ve heard it all. During a human being’s most emotional time of life.. how does one justify God? Yeah, ok.. God doesn’t need to justify Himself to man. There’s words for all occasions in Christendom to explain anything. On top of the grief of loss there’s the guilt of doubting the Almighty’s influence over the event. So tragic loss and personal grief is somehow a test of our faith? Difficult not to assign some responsibility toward the person administering that test, isn’t it?
I even find it a bit amazing that our government sends our soldiers to jail for war crimes if they pose with the enemy dead for photographs… yet somehow the killing of said enemy by our soldiers escapes the moral responsibility of “Thou shalt not kill.” presumably from a higher authority. And then we wonder why there’s PTSD.
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I hear you, Doug. I love that you’re asking those kind of moral questions, too. So, short answer, but people in general, including Christians, can be insensitive and irrational, and we can have the wrong words and the wrong theology to offer people when they are hurting. The fact that we say those kinds of things to others doesn’t make it true and it isn’t always a good representation of God’s true nature.
God doesn’t “have to” justify Himself, but He desires to, He wants to make His presence known, and He wants us to understand. He wants a relationship with us, to come alongside us, for us to trust that He is good.
God is not the government, thank God. He is not our fine print around “thou shall not kill.” I like what you’ve said about PTSD. Our spirits cannot lie nor can they absorb a lie, so when we slam into a moral conundrum like that we split and fragment. It’s a fascinating bit of soul preservation or self defense. Obviously it’s unpleasant for the person who goes through it, but what a remarkable design, an amazing coping mechanism. PTSD is evidence that we have souls in need of protection.
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Actually I rather like your last sentence…. “PTSD is evidence that we have souls in need of protection.”.. if we assume drifting into that disease has some relation to our inner moral spiritual faith quandary toward what we are seeing and/or doing and the brain’s conscious inability to compensate properly, or if it’s more a chemical trigger. Logic dictates it’s very likely either one or the other or maybe both. All the more reason to have a national mental health program.
Regarding the other subject.. I think much of what feeds Christians (on grief over death) is the almost constant lament of the various interpretations on God’s omnipotence.. He knows all, sees all, has planned out everything, knows what we are going to do before we do it, never to be challenged for His presentation of events.. yada, yada… and when a loved one dies, we naturally assume He had a hand in it. Then we are told… He is blameless and somehow existence and your sadness is all your fault.. and on we go with the sin and guilt thing… during a living person’s worse time of their life. The contradictions are voluminous.
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“Never to be challenged for His presentation of events.…”
True! We inadvertently or unwittingly create all these paradoxes as if to say something like, “God is good always, but God killed your loved one and gave you cancer.”
If you want my opinion, God DOES want to be challenged for His presentation of events. Read Job, it’s a beautiful example of grief challenging God. Or Jacob’s tale, wrestling with God all night. Or David’s lamentations and psalms.
One reason why we have so many issues around faith in our culture is because the bible is plumb full of reminders to “work out your faith with fear and trembling,” or to, “go boldly before the throne of grace,” but conservative Christianity is more like, “sit down, shut up, and don’t challenge the dogma.”
Personally I think God would rather have us either angry, hating on Him, or in complete disbelief of His existence, then believing He is the kind of God who would inflict evil upon us and then diabolical enough to expect us to just accept it or to blame ourselves.
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So, by your explanation.. very generalized, of course.. that to be a Christian simply means you believe Christ as being the Son of God and was crucified for our sins, and rose to sit with God…. but the rest of it is all subjective to various interpretation.. and whims, interpreting the Bible at will?
Understand here I’m not challenging at all what you said as I am not qualified to judge another’s beliefs. I am just referencing your past spiritual posts and the wide ranging comments seem to suggest a more “fluid” interpretation.
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Well, I think what you are calling a, ” fluid interpretation,” is actually all the same thing just being viewed from different angles. Kind of like how the guy standing at the backend of an elephant is not going to be seeing the same thing as the guy standing in the front. The nature of the elephant hasn’t changed a bit, we’re just all standing in a different position looking at it.
For me personally, I do believe that to be a Christian is simply to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, crucified for our sins and rose on the third day. A great deal of the rest of the stuff that we say we believe really is more subjective and cultural than it is biblical.
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To your last sentence… kinda sounds a bit dismissive of the value of the “rest of the Bible”.
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I’m not dismissive of the value of the rest of the Bible. In this brief conversation alone I’ve spoken of the Book of Jonah, 3 John, Psalm 22, and Hebrews 4:16. What I am dismissive of is many of the things more related to cultural Christianity, political Christianity, or general Christianese.
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Ha.. Christianese.
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Amen! God’s will isn’t “sometimes good, sometimes bad. ” It’s ALWAYS good, it’s just sometimes pleasant, sometimes unpleasant. To have a balanced (divine) perspective, we need to see the whole picture, which can be hard to do when we’re in the middle of something. But I’m sure if Paul could have seen how many millions of people would read and benefit from his writings, he would have rejoiced, even in prison.. Oh wait, he did, we’re the ones who don’t quite “get it” yet.
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“Paul could have seen how many millions of people would read and benefit from his writings, he would have rejoiced, even in prison.. Oh wait, he did, we’re the ones who don’t quite “get it” yet. ”
LOL! Right? He even tells us about singing in prison, about having great joy in the midst of what we would call unpleasant circumstances.
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I recall some others singing in prison that ended with an earthquake opening up the doors and the jailer and his whole household being saved. (Acts 16)
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Great perspective! I am with you that the truth is in the middle, and overall he wants good for us! Thanks for sharing.
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Well said IB. This reminds me of something our pastor said once about Romans 8:28 – ‘if it’s not good it’s not the end’ because God’s plan for us is GOOD. 🙂
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Amen! Wise pastor. 🙂
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So true! Sometimes certain parts in the Gospel seem so sad and depressing, but we forget to see the joy and beauty in it! We no longer haave to be afraid, because God is always with us
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Amen and amen, IB. I think one of the reasons we’re so depressed in the West is because it’s all about us and joy is other-centered. And joy has nothing whatsoever to do with our circumstances, and we obsess over them.
Two things about bad things and untimely deaths. First, Colorstorm has it right. God doesn’t plan or desire for people to suffer, that’s absurd. He allows it because He has given us free will and so suffering comes from living in a fallen world full of people making foolish choices. The word “gives” in Isa.30:20 also means “grants” or allows. Because of this, Jesus told us we would suffer in this world but He has overcome it. And this is the only way love can flourish.
It certainly would be cruel and unjust to live in a world where death is the end of it, which is why Jesus has defeated death on the Cross, so death does not get the final say about what is good or what is bad.
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