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Pastor Wilson posts a little diddy, “why there is hell.” It’s from, “Mere Fundamentalism” and says in part, “He excludes from Heaven only those who refuse to let go of their own wild and disproportionate sinning.”
No. There is a hell because somewhere along the way, the church adopted some pagan teachings, farther refined by the Greeks, for the purpose of social, political, and behavioral control. People were burned at the stake in God’s name all the time, mostly because people are totally depraved and can pervert anything, even the bible and God’s great love for us.
If you think God so loved the world that He was willing to die for us, but will also delight in slowly burning His own children to death for all of eternity, than something has gone all awry with your Herman Netics.
There is a hell because people are wounded, broken, and insecure, and cannot even imagine how to go about leading people without using threats of eternal damnation and endless punishment.
I also want to take note of Wilson’s, “wild and disproportionate sinning.” Whew, this is such a relief since my sinning is always in proportion, and never wild! Thank goodness I always make a point of sinning in a calm, rational, and wholly proportionate manner……..unlike all those other guys. I’m quite sure God is impressed.
This puts me at odds with a lot of Christians, but Jesus Himself was at odds with, “a lot of Christians.” A bit like Jesus, I simply know my Father very well.
There really is no, “doctrine of hell.” I am somewhat disappointed to hear those words spoken so often, and spoken to people who don’t even know the doctrine of grace! Interestingly, people who obey or follow Jesus simply because they fear hell, tend to do a piss poor job of it. Perhaps that is because they are trying to recreate themselves in the image of an abusive Father who would burn His own children to death when they made a mistake or “sinned too wildly.”
The dark stuff, the demonic, separation from God? Oh yeah, I believe in all that. I’ve seen it, I’ve born witness to it. But hell as a place you send the naughty parishioners to? Wrong. One might even call that, “a false teaching from the deepest pit of hell.”
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See, there's this thing called biology... 
I take early and I’m a bit bleary eyed reading this, but I don’t think I understand. You don’t believe in hell or is it this pastor Wilson fellow or is it both?
Then Sheol or ‘ the pit’ the psalmist speaks of isn’t real? Jesus did not descend into hell and expunge us of sin thus rising on the third day in turn extending us eternal life if we follow or should chose the world, ego, self and darkness— damnation?
( yes I know men wrote that creed)
I too have seen and known evil— and that Satan is real.
I heard it once said that hell is the total void of God—an absence— a disassociating forever— and once the severed tie is— we’ve cast our die.
We either choose light or we choose darkness— but we do choose.
I need another cup of coffee
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Further insight into this topic is contained in my Articles “Is Hell a Literal Place?” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-P and “Eternal Separation From God” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-N. Also “The Rich Man and Lazarus” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-V and “The After-Life” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-F.
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Thank you for sharing— once our life slows down, I look forward to reading your article!
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Thanks for expressing your interest. There are actually Four Articles: “Is Hell a Literal Place?” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-P and “Eternal Separation From God” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-N. Also “The Rich Man and Lazarus” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-V and “The After-Life” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-F. The culmination of information compliments and ‘dove-tails’ to provide a fuller insight.
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That’s ‘ it is early’ see I can’t even read to peck on my phone
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Hell as a fiery place where God hangs out to torment people for all of eternity is not something I read in the bible, it doesn’t mesh with the nature of God, and it is more heavily tainted by culture than by faith.
But always chose coffee, you can’t go wrong there.
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No, I don’t believe in a fiery sea— God is not there— hence the eternal torment— a place where God is not !
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Here’s where we might be able to learn something from another religion.
The Sufi poet Rabia ran through the streets of Basra with a bucket of water in one hand and a flaming torch in another, and when she was asked why, she said something to the effect: if people love God because of hell, the water will put out the fires of hell, and if people love God because of heaven the fire will burn up heaven, and then people will be able to love God for Himself.
Jesus – all in all.
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Very cool, Hat. Love God for Himself. I think we should all run around with a bucket of living water. 🙂
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Why can’t there be a Hell?
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Further insight into this topic is contained in my Articles “Is Hell a Literal Place?” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-P and “Eternal Separation From God” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-N. Also “The Rich Man and Lazarus” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-V and “The After-Life” @ https://wp.me/p4H39f-F.
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C.S. Lewis said in the Great Divorce, “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.” I think he was on to something here. The problem is, we can’t don’t know dogmatically what hell is like (Not to be confused with “Sheol” or “Hades.” Respectively, those were the Hebrew and Greek words for “grave.” ) In the West, we are more influenced by Dante than understanding the Bible’s language.
As John Crowder said, “Your understanding of the nature of Hell will be conditioned by the nature of the God you preach.” If we are preaching a vindictive God who sends His children to be tormented forever, we are preaching a sadistic monster, not the Father of Jesus.
Your pastor Wilson is so over the top spewing his vitriolic hatred he almost seems like a fake person propagated by an anti-Christian in order to create their straw man. He is SO everything ugly about “Christianity!” He needs help. 🙂
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Thanks, Mel. Jesus says believe in me, follow me, trust in me. He does NOT say you have to believe that “Dante’s inferno” is the literal word of God, because that would be downright silly. So isn’t His grace sufficient? Why wouldn’t His grace be sufficient? Why would we need to create these extra narratives to force people to believe?
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Btw, John Crowder posted a video this week about hell. He quotes the early church father’s view on hell. It’s amazing how un-Dante-like our view of hell was about hell for 1,500 years before Dante! Crowder also deals with all the proof-texts for the common (Western) understanding of the language of hell in Scripture. Our problem is we have a very poor understanding of Semitic thinking and metaphor used in Scripture.
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Oh, thank you for the link! I’m going to watch and study that for a few days. 🙂
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He is basically giving the Eastern Orthodox view which, frankly, is more consistent with the nature of God. They never embraced the vindictive Dante version of hell and torment and fire.
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Dear InsanityBytes and Friends, but Jesus warns us of an eternal hell, several times. Even the old testament describes the eternal state of the wicked.
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Something that I think we often miss, what is the context and what is the intent of Jesus’ words? So He speaks of the grave, of Gehenna, but for what purpose? What is His motivation? He is not speaking of hell as a way to scare us into being forced to love Him. He is not using hell as a threat. He is not condemning people. He is not out preaching this alleged “doctrine of hell,” against His enemies as a form of revenge and retaliation.
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The goodness of God does not require the absence of hell, but that Christ graciously makes a way for sinners to receive life when they could never earn it by their works. Sin certainly condemns sinners.
God is not seeking revenge, He is reconciling rebellious children – but not all will come to the wedding feast.
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You don’t reconcile and restore rebellious children by tormenting them for all of eternity. That becomes meaningless, because it serves no purpose. You are not going to teach rebellious children a lesson by eternally tormenting them.
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Jesus demonstrated His love by suffering in this life, on the cross, in the place of sinners. If this love is forsaken you declare, “I am perfect. I don’t need this substitution, I stand alone!” Then you will be judged and found wanting. Hell is not the lesson, it’s the punishment of sin. The Cross is the beacon of God’s love for His people.
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Rev 21:8 – But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Matthew 10:28 – Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Jesus taught there is a hell. Granted I have tried to reason that the fires of hell is poetic, symbolic language just as the streets of gold in heaven perhaps is symbolic. But I haven’t found that to be a great comfort but even if it is symbolic there has to be an analogy of something. Jesus had to be describing a place of great sorrow and pain whatever/wherever it is. (Luke 16 for one). People who say they would rather be in hell with their buddies than in a sanctified heaven will get their druthers. The sinner does not know the grace of God until they get a glimpse or experience the grace of God, therefore, they are wise to know their options. Choose you this day… There has to be two options or there could not be choice. The place you mention in your last paragraph – what is that, if not hell? And isn’t it going to last forever? Does the fear of hell drive people to explore an alternative? Hopefully.
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I really like what you have said about poetic symbolism, because yes, even poetic symbolism is trying to be symbolic of something.
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I have no idea who this Wilson is, I know who Jesus is, I’ll stick with him. As for hell, I now wonder what you are saying, might you clarify? I know some of the 7th dayers have a different understanding of eternity than I do, which affects the way they see hell, there are the emotionally motivated, and the rational, those who must have a concise this means that outlook, and the ones who “feel” that God, being love and all, must not , could not punish evil forever. I know it’s not a place I want to be, and loving God , and following his ways not only creats a great here and now, and keeps me from that end, but gives eternal life vs eternal death. I don’t use coffee, and may not be awake enough to fully understand if there is more to your rant,,,,
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I think many 7th dayers believe in annihilationism, where there is no “hell,” and evil is consumed and ceases to exist at the end. Revelation 20:14 speaks of how, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.” Death is destroyed forever, as is the very concept of hell.
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Yes, thanks annihilation was the word I couldn’t find , same as eternal death? Eternal life, or eternal , well, nothing, gone, or eternal burning, hmm, I find both in the word, not having the best grip on the original thoughts being expressed, I think I’ll just go for the eternal life part, believing that if someone had to die to save me from it, it may not be a favorable alternative!
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Jesus spoke often of hell.
I think the parable of the rich man and the poor man who begged at his door is telling. In the parable, both men die; the poor man goes to heaven and the rich man goes to hell. As he is burning in the fire of hell, he sees the poor man in heaven and asks that the poor man bring him some water. He is told that cannot be, partly because of the great chasm between heaven and hell that cannot be cross.
Note that the rich man did not ask to be released from the torment hell. He’s not asking to be brought into the presence of God in heaven. He asked that the poor man be made to bring him water. In other words, even while in death, he hasn’t changed. He still wants to treat the poor man like a slave or servant; someone beneath him.
However hell is described, a couple of things are clear. One is that hell is a permanent separation from the presence of God. The other is that the people who end up in hell are there because they chose to be there. They rejected God, and even in death, they don’t want to be around God, no matter how tormenting that separation is.
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Will only say a doctrine so important and misappropriated can hardly be settled in an afternoon of blogging.
I would however not be interested in hearing the godless cues of an atheist or for that matter, an alleged scholar who carries spiritual erasers.
Still, the square teaching of any doctrine need not be feared- when understood in light of the whole.
I may not know many things but I do know this: the Judge of all the earth SHALL do right. His measures are excellent, and He interferes not with the decisions we make.
There is a heaven. There is a hell . Now as to the interpretations. 😀
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LOL! My bottom line in every thing related to doctrine is, “God gets it right!” People not so much, but God always knows what He is doing. 🙂
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I wouldn’t want the job of ‘judge of all the earth’ msb.
There are tons of people I would just love to bulldoze away- like the idiots who are special snowflakes while driving- they just have to annoy a thousand other drivers to get .004788 seconds ahead.
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Ha! I had major revelation once when I finally realized God is far more merciful and loving than I am.
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Discussions about hell can be simplified by starting here:
1. What is the last enemy that Christ / God will destroy?
2. How will that last enemy destroyed?
Speaking of doctrines, that one needs to be understood by everybody.
– For he [Christ] must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
– The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
Note that the Bible does not say that death will be defeated. It says it will be destroyed. An army that is defeated, can fall back, regroup, and at some later point rise to fight again. An army that is destroyed cannot do this. It has been destroyed. It no longer exists.
So – again – how will death be destroyed (not defeated)?
– And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (kjv; Revelations 20:14-15)
By the Bible’s own words, folks cannot burn in hell for an eternity. Because hell is not going to exist for an eternity. Death and hell (literally, death and the grave) are going to be destroyed.
The first death came about because Adam and Eve got themselves banned from the Tree of Life. But God promised the resurrection as a solution to that first death experience. All die the first death because of what Adam and Eve did. All will be resurrected from the first death (except those who are alive at the Second Coming), because that resurrection was promised. Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are consigned to the second death, from which no resurrection has been promised. This second death is eternal.
All are resurrected to stand at the Judgement seat, where all will be judged for things done while in the body.
– Those who accepted Jesus and his claim on their life will be directed to the Throne, beside which stands the Tree of Life, of which they may freely eat forever more. (notice that the ToL opens and closes the Bible)
– Those who rejected Jesus and his claim on their life will be directed away from the Judgement Seat, and what? And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death).
The Bible says that the last enemy that Jesus will destroy (destroy, not defeat) will be death. That destruction will be accomplished by throwing death and hell (the grave) into the lakeof fire, which is the second death. And that lake of fire, that fire which will destroy death, that fire which is the second death from which no resurrection has been promised, is the exact same place that those cast away from God’s presence will be sent. If death is destroyed by the lake of fire, what of the folks who are thrown into it?
—–
It is useful to note that “Gehenna”, the word that is translated into “hell” in much of the KJV, was a valley outside of Old Jerusalem where the city’s garbage was taken to be burned. It is said that that fire never went out. Sometimes we can throw things into a fire, only to have the fire go out and so the thing we threw into the fire remains, half burned. In a fire that never goes out, this does not happen. Whatever is thrown in there is destroyed, completely. The reference to Gehenna is a reference to a thing that can destroy, completely. If death is to be destroyed, what better trick than to throw it into some thing that can actually destroy it. And, again, what of the folks rejected at the Judgement Seat who will be thrown into the same thing that destoyed death?
I don’t know enough to say that they won’t burn for eternity. But I do know that they won’t be burning in hell, for the Bible says that hell will be destroyed. And if the lake of fire “destroys” things, but takes an eternity to do it, does that really fit the definition of destroyed? How can Jesus hand his kingdom over to God after the final enemy to be destroyed (death) is destroyed, if that destruction takes place over eternity? The definition of the word “destroyed” requires us to think that, if something is truely destroyed, that destruction happens in a short period of time. Jesus is going to be waiting a long time to hand over his kingdom to God if he can’t hand it over until death is destroyed and death is still half-way here, and still working, halfway through eternity. Thinking that way makes no sense. And what is true of the destruction of death must be true of the folks who are acted on by that same thing that destroyed death. It is over with in a short period of time, but the results are eternal. Eternal destruction. Destroyed for all eternity. Died the second death. With no resurrection promised. Dead forever. A punishment short in duration, but with eternal results.
Any argument about what happens to folks rejected at the Judgment Seat MUST take into account that the Bible says they are going to be cast into the lake of fire. They are cast into the same entity that is going to destroy death and the grave. Whatever eternity you want to argue for, re. the folks cast in there, that interpretation must be consistent with the fact that the lake of fire has the ability to destroy (destroy, not defeat) death and the grave.
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https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2013805&srcid=share
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Yep, JW’s tend to get several things right about the bible in ways that often elude modern evangelicals.
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I am quite impressed you have decided to tackle this issue. It needed doing and is all the more powerful coming from a believer.
But not without a measure of push-back, I see!
It bears repeating. Jesus was a Jew; raised a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew.
Hell, whatever he meant by the Jewish term he used, was not the disgusting term Christians managed to mangle out of Hebrew and Greek words and subsequently foisted on generations of children/adults,
While Colorstorm seems to be fence sitting on this one and Wally is nowhere to be seen, many of the comments reveal the general ignorance of the average Christian regarding the history of this doctrine, inculcated into them – as it was for most of us – by Parents, Pastors,Priests, Vicars, Sunday School Teachers and popular media – Movies, music, art, books etc.
It also reveals how indoctrination is crucial in playing a large role combating cognitive dissonance, though not always 100% successfully, as I have no doubt many, many Christians must wonder how God can be a loving father when he sends his (unrepentant) kids to hell? After all, he made them for goodness’ sake, right?
A post that needs ”airing” on a regular basis.
Maybe it will reach the occasional individual who might think twice before threatening their own kids with Hell for whatever reason.
Good One.
Ark.
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Tkx for the honorable mention ark- but please don’t make the common mistake of confusing someone’s reluctance to engage a topic which leads nowhere, with the lack of ability to critically assess what scripture bears on many a topic-
Rest assured there is no inability- but greater issues are on the table for YOU, such as the total blindness to see the total reliability and truth of Genesis 1.1.
You are well out of your league then to discuss a lake of fire, the blacknesss of darkness, since by your own admission, you do not give the Creator the basic courtesy of existing; yet, you laugh Him to scorn.
Yes, readers here will agree with me entirely, and this is my point made to select what I deem worthy of battle.
Heck, even believers will abrade me for even responding to you- it’s not an easy life being a believer, yet quite rewarding; the sane and sober mind and all that.
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I am quite sure IB knows full well my position on this. But feel free to remind her!
However a more truthful approach to this particularly vile aspect of the Christian faith might go a long way in breaking down barriers within the plethora of denominations over a doctrine which has been firmly in place for far too long.
Those who hold a firm grip on the reigns of power are usually reluctant to release them, and this goes for religious institutions as well. Martin Luther was all too familiar!
It would likely be fair to say that, many adults were tortured with threats of Hell as kids and a fair number still retain the memories.
But, as usual you resort to somewhat obscure rhetoric that sounds profound but really isn’t.
Maybe if you addressed the issue honestly and in a straightforward manner you might find there is a way to reach more common ground with your Christian brethren.
And I’m sure a great many children would thank you for at least making the effort.
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~~~But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.~~~
Hi again ark. Don’t u just love scripture. Here we have the introduction of the most unusual, an earthquake, read the narrative carefully: ‘a new thing……….’
Not so new anymore huh, as we become immune to the supernatural.
As to my friend the good lady, surely you must know by now that we share the same jeweled appreciation of scripture, and we (like so many others) compliment each other rather well, there is no disappointments in the least.
The quality of LIGHT makes this clear.
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Your interpretation is as poetic as always. However, it does little to address the horrendous nature of the Christian interpretation of something Jesus quite obviously did not advocate. Neither does it help the countless numbers of children who are being raised in abject pants- wetting fear.
As I mentioned in the previous comment, if you were able to focus your attention on this aspect of the doctrine maybe you would make quite a number of children less fearful a considerably more happy? Just a thought.
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Amen, Colorstorm. There is no disagreement here, we “compliment” or complement one another very well. 🙂
As to kids being “tortured by hell,” well that’s a personal issue that has to be worked out. Ask the Lord for His wisdom and His healing. That’s a wound that must be fixed from the inside, not the outside.
My parents actually had major issues and traumatized all their kids with some secular nihilistic mandates about death. In secular ville, in atheist world, people were allegedly tormented for all of eternity in death, without any belief in God. So a lot of these issues are not about doctrine or our faith at all, they are about human nature.
If one has issues with hell or not understanding the Father’s heart for us, then talk to Him, ask Him about it, don’t let such things separate you from the goodness of God.
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Complementarians, or biblicists, or scripturalists,I like that, as opposed to fundamentalists. 😉
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And now for something completely different…but maybe not. Leave it to me to relate this serious and deep theological debate (NOT being sarcastic) to…. the cover of Vogue magazine, circa 2008 (please search on “vogue cover LeBron James”), featuring LeBron James and Giselle Bundchen. That image provoked almost every kind of reaction, and still does. People came to blows over the implicit (or not) message. When you look at it, what do YOU see? Is it the photo, or your own heart? That’s what hell discussions are to me. We can hope, guess, interpret, debate. What we can’t do is separate the actual reality of what is to be from who we are, though it’s certainly worth the time.
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That’s a very good point, Curm. What do YOU see, as a way of revealing our own heart. Well said.
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I see two superstars with their respective game faces on having a great time!
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The scripture that says “God is Love” , should make one pause to ask , Would a God who IS love ( not HAS love) burn and torture anyone , man ,woman, or child, for and eternity over a few years or brief period of time , of incongruity ?
The Bible does not teach Hell , if you dig into it , it teaches that when you die , all memory and thought ceases , Acts 24:15 says what will actually happen , and Matthew 5:5 , Jesus was quoting from Psalms 37:9-32 …..
Find the scripture that says ” Like the days of a tree , the days of my people will be ”
The Giant sequoias are how old ?
One commenter was partially correct in referring to the “Valley of Hinnom” or Gehennah , but it has a much more significant meaning . The other Valley that needs to be noted is Har Meggido ,… This is where decisive battles were finished , the end result being that final decision ……Hence the term Armageddon or Har Meggido ,….. No one is going to hell ….No one ……..
There will be a Battle , there will be Casualties , there will be survivors .
Those who survive , Inherit the Earth ……
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