When the little stone god is right, or at least partially right, I suppose an answer is warranted and a blog post is born. I speak of Arkenaten the atheist who, in the Rachel Held Evans thread declares,
“Baffling that certain very vocal Christians are yelling for all their worth that she is burning in Hell, and from what I have gleaned about devout evangelicals is that there are a lot more who may not have voiced these views but who definitely believe it. Simply gross behaviour. The hypocrisy is, sadly, oh so typical.”
Right. And that’s quite true! The evidence is all over social media, twitter, and eloquently and perhaps more civilly written in Christian articles far and wide. That’s primarily because people are totally depraved asshats, Arkenaten. Self absorbed, self obsessed, and downright evil at worst, or at best, so incredibly ignorant and lacking self awareness one wonders how they manage to even tie their shoe laces in the morning.
Welcome to humanity Ark! Maybe the truth of who we really are will give you a tiny peek into why we cannot save ourselves. We’re never going to progress, evolve, and magically become good people. Imagine there’s no heaven It’s easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today (ah ah ah.) Even if the words in that love song ever came true, the world would simply then be filled with a bunch of secular asshats. Probably worse, because without a standard of morality to fall short of, we’re limited by nothing but our imaginations, always redefining right and wrong, always finding new and adventurous ways to obtain our little bliss hits of emotional power.
Arkenaten continues, “But these people truly believe they are acting upon the words of the bible/Jesus. How does one demonstrate that their view is incorrect, when, after all, they consider they are warning others in case they also end up burning in hell for eternity. While we both agree their actions are despicable, how can we know they are wrong?”
Right again! These people do believe they are acting upon the words of the bible and of Jesus. That’s what Rachel Held Evans book “Biblical Womanhood” was really all about. It was basically satire, mockery, as if to say, listen up you fools, this is a great piece of literature, a collection of poetry, legends, and myths. You linear thinkers are not supposed to be interpreting every single thing in a literal sense! There is this huge chasm between believing the bible is the literal word of God…..and believing every single word is meant to be translated literally. God wishes to gather you beneath His feathers as a mother hen gathers her chicks. That is the in the bible, that is the literal word of God. This does not mean God is a literal chicken, the Great Cosmic Chicken of the Sky.
The second part of Ark’s question, “How does one demonstrate that their view is incorrect…..” I don’t know, Ark. What even makes it incorrect? Without the Lord’s word, without His example, without the way He walked in the world, without the way He treated us, I have no frame of reference in which to label this behavior wrong.
I watched an eagle decimate a seagull the other day. He just made seagull nuggets right over my head and left me dodging dropping bird bits. Was that “wrong?” Was the eagle “bad?” Was it “sin?” Beyond a few vain imaginings and some silly sentimentalities, no. I got nothing, no standard in which to condemn the eagle.
People in the absence of God, in the absence of a Savior, in the absence of some kind of Divine example of who we should be and how we should walk the world, are really no different then that eagle. Evangelicals have been all over social media gleefully declaring Rachel Held Evan’s new residency in hell because it makes them feel all powerful and morally superior. Because it’s fun. Because it’s how they win friends and influence people. Because they believe it is acceptable and they think they can get away with it. Because it distracts them from the darkness within their own selves.
Because a huge majority of Christians are totally depraved asshats who have simply grabbed a bible in the hopes of gaining some power and influence among the other humans? The first way you do that is by casting out all the undesirables, and making sure you rule everyone with fear, power, and control, so everyone falls into line, anxious to fit in.
Because atheists aren’t the only ones who fancy themselves little stone gods.
As to the last part of Ark’s comment, the best part of all, “While we both agree their actions are despicable, how can we know they are wrong?” Because…….Jesus Christ. Because their actions fall so short of what He spoke about and what He taught. He said to love your neighbor, to pray for your enemies, to bless those who curse you. It was so contrary to human nature, so illogical, so scandalous, such a radical notion, people stood up and listened.
We’re still here, listening today. And yep, some Christians are real lunkheads and some are probably not even “Christians” at all. And some are still in process, still just mean spirited and ignorant of how they relate to others. They often see their faith more as a weapon they can use against other people, rather then an intimate personal relationship with their Creator.
Far too much of what many Christians believe about hell really comes from “Dante’s inferno” and assorted other pieces of literature, rather than the bible. Those who insist that everyone they disagree with be tossed into an eternal lake of fire for perpetual punishment aren’t actually following Jesus Christ, they’re following Cain, they’re being humans consumed by sin, wishing eternal torment and continuous death on those who might have a better offering then they do.
Hell is just our state of being already, it is spending eternity with our own selves, it is being given over to who and what we really are absent God and salvation. If you’ve seen enough hell on earth, you usually develop the eyes to see and the wisdom to know that God is not standing by threatening to send dissenters to hell. He knows we’re walking in it already. He came to give us life and life abundant, life eternal, a better way, once actually called The Way. John 3:17 says, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
You want to really freak an evangelical out and get yourself labeled a heretic, just mention that historically, back in the day before antibiotics, when someone was injured we built a fire next to them and we wrapped their wounds in Sulphur. People flocked to hot springs for healing, in part because of the Sulphur. Our God is a consuming fire, a refining fire, like one would use to remove the dross from gold. We built fires in temples not to burn people alive, but to purify and cleanse, to represent healing and the Holy Spirit, the eternal fire. To send someone to fire and Sulphur actually meant to heal them, to purify them, to restore them to life. God is a God of restoration, not eternal damnation.
But the short answer to all these questions really is, because people are idiots, prone to stupidity and glorified violence, wanting God’s stamp of approval on their own foolishness and quests for power. We desperately need good leadership and a Savior.
And that is what I think about all that, Ark. It’s not “baffling” at all, it’s boring and redundant, it’s human behavior that has been repeating itself for thousands of years. If people wanted to surprise the hell out of me, to throw me into a state of complete bafflement, they’d just be kind to one another, love their neighbor, and actually follow what Jesus Christ taught.
sullivanspin said:
When Christians believe life is a debate instead of a rescue mission, we tend to celebrate the death of atheists instead of feeling the sorrow God feels for the lost.
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grabaspine said:
Bingo. Great comment
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clubschadenfreude said:
“That’s primarily because people are totally depraved asshats, Arkenaten. ” Nope, not at all. Only asshats are asshats, as the Christians are in this example.. I have no problem not being an “asshat” and no god needed, expecially the one depicted in the bible. If we are to believe Christians, this god created these “asshats” intentionally, being omnipotent and omniscient. Now, I’m sure yuo might blame “asshatness” on the “fall” but that doesn’t work. This god either intentionally allowed Satan into the garden, or was too stupid to keep it out. Then needed to invent a way to not damn every human to hell by needing a blood sacrifice to stop itself from doing that, a rule that it made. So, it’s at fault the whole way through.
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Liz said:
I have no problem not being an “asshat” and no god needed
Guess that means you have to work at it. Good job playing asshat. You might want to pull back a little or people will believe you take to it naturally.
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insanitybytes22 said:
LOL! Let the record show, I actually do take to it naturally. I’m pretty sure we really do need Christ in order to love people, but that might just be me. 🙂
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clubschadenfreude said:
ah, nice Christian words, Liz. So, please do show how I am an “asshat”, or are you simply bearing false witness against me? What’s your explanation of how satan got into the garden?
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clubschadenfreude said:
oh, and where is evidence for this claim “ck in the day before antibiotics, when someone was injured we built a fire next to them and we wrapped their wounds in Sulphur”
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Wally Fry said:
IB, this post will prove beyond doubt that the militants atheists have absolutely no desire to find common ground on which to dialogue. Only the complete silence of any person of faith will do.
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grabaspine said:
Bingo wally. You’re proving both IBs and Sullivan’s points. Have a great day
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Wally Fry said:
Look spineless, if IB has a problem with my comment she will say so. Our conversations only prove that the brethren don’t have to walk in lockstep to be brethren.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Nah, you made a great comment Wally and a valid point.
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Wally Fry said:
Well, we don’t have to be in perfect step to be brother and sister IB.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen, Wally! There can be a great deal of controversy and debate….and people still love one another. I take note of the fact that Pastor Wilson, who disagreed vehemently with RHE, still did not exploit her death or act like a lunkhead when he wrote his article about her passing. That was cool.
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Arkenaten said:
Not at all. I have read numerous comments from non-believers who have stated they felt this woman was somewhat of a beacon in the quagmire of fundamentalist idiocy and genuinely applauded her efforts to draw people away from such extreme fundamentalism. People such as you Wally, for example.
My reason for commenting was simply to illustrate once again that there is no unifying, all-embracing Christianity, and that no matter how much people such as yourselves claim you are not divided by differences providing you all love and fear the lord – or whatever term you care to use – the reality is so far removed from this, one might be forgiven for concluding that you are from different religions altogether.
In Islam the different sects still try to annihilate each other on occasion, as did the various sects of your own religion in the not too distant past, and there is STILL violence between Catholics and Protestants in some parts of the world.
So, in light of just how vile so many Christians are towards one another, for you to charge that ”militant atheists” have no desire to find common ground is risible.
Maybe you should try to find more common ground with your fellow Christians first?
Ask yourself honestly what damage something like Ken Ham’s Ark Experience is doing to children exposed to such nonsense.
And you might like to re-look at the words in the bible and wonder why you ,reject evolution and why you still believe the earth is only 10,000 years old and why you consider dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans and ponder why the vast majority of Christians consider this is simply science denying rubbish?
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Wally Fry said:
Lol. Are suggesting you come here looking for common ground?
All you come around for is to preach atheists sermons.
You atheists that don’t even have the courage to be honest about their agenda make me want to puke.
Oh btw note that even though me and the blog host don’t agree on everything we are still quite civil.
Keep on trying to show division. Keep on looking stupid
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Bill Sweeney said:
Great points, Wally!
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Wally Fry said:
Thanks Bill. Apparently I was correct.
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MJThompson said:
Amen IB, let’s “follow what Jesus Christ taught”.
As you shared – John 3:17 says, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” The preceding verse declares, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should NOT PERISH but have everlasting life”.
Simply stated, there are TWO possible destinies for humanity = LIFE ETERNAL or PERISH. God clearly reveals HIS will = NOT to condemn, but to SAVE. Throughout Scripture eternal LIFE is distinguished from “ETERNITY”. Once PERISHED, that state remains for eternity. Conversely, once SAVED, ETERNAL LIFE persists perpetually. The contrast is stark, ETERNAL LIFE or ETERNAL DEATH.
“Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH” – Rev. 29:14.“Hades” is the Greek word translated “hell” in English versions. Notice BOTH death and hell (Hades) cast into a fiery destination – their final destruction. “God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have PASSED AWAY” – Rev. 21:4.
Sorrow, crying, pain SHALL be NO MORE! There shall be NO ‘eternal’ torment. There will be a final judgment, of which ALL humanity will be cognizant. The sentence is imposed ONCE. Those redeemed have eternal life. Those not shall cease to exist.
For a fuller insight into what Scripture actually says (rather than Dante) about ETERNAL HELL, please consult my Article @ https://mjthompsons.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/is-hell-a-literal-place/.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well said, MJ. Thank you for the link, too. I’ve always loved how how the bible speaks of the second death and says death and hades shall be cast into the lake too, and there will be no more tears or suffering. The very concept of death and even of hell itself, will go into the lake of fire.
Chuckling here, but sometimes I wonder who is more disappointed about that, evangelicals or atheists?
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whisperingleavesblog said:
Yes some evangelicals do need to seriously look to see there is any kind of difference in the way in which they read the scriptures and that of the Pharisees. To be brief to come to God through the Lord Jesus Christ is to come to Love, carried to the Footstool in the arms of amazing redeeming love. Perfect love casts out all fear. The Bible is an amazing, divenly inspired book which teaches us to love our neighbour as ourself not hit them over the head with it or use it to condemn our brothers or sisters, those whom the Bible says God can make to stand…
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iamcurmudgeon said:
I read a transcript of a debate on Vox, between Sean Illing and Ben Shapiro. Illing was trying to equate Nazi-ism with Christianity because “most of the people in Hitlerian Germany were Christians.” Unfortunately, Shapiro never insisted upon defining terms. I would have asked, “were they Dietrich Bonhoeffer Christians?
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen. Well said. Too bad you weren’t in that debate.
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iamcurmudgeon said:
If not, your premise is invalid. “But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2:18.
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dpmonahan said:
Its all about tribal loyalty. Evans chose to be loyal to the morals of the dominate culture and conservative Evangelicals saw her as a traitor, which in a way she was. Her fans on twitter are being just as bad as her detractors, because that is how competing tribes treat one another.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Yeah, you are right, it all infused with tribalism and politics. Here’s my issue however, when you say “her fans on twitter are being just as bad,” I don’t care. I don’t care because it’s childish and foolish to pretend as if morality exists on some kind of grading curve.
Is it wrong to dance on someone’s grave, to proclaim their death is God’s punishment for their liberalism, to speak death and eternal torment on her? Yes, yes it is always wrong and immoral. The only tribal loyalty Christians should be proclaiming is their loyalty to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
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dpmonahan said:
Well, of course it is stupid, no one knows the eternal fate of another person, that is God’s business not man’s.
But it isn’t wrong to criticize the dead. Plenty of people danced on R.J. Neuhaus’s grave when he died and it pissed me off at the time but looking back 15 years later I realize there were legitimate criticisms to be made: he was a good man but too caught up in the Republican party.
I don’t think tribal loyalty is bad, you should be loyal to your church or your nation, region or family. It is just limited. Loyalties need to be put into a hierarchy.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Okay. So here’s a tribal loyalty of mine. If someone thinks following Jesus Christ is about acting like an asshat and screaming at people about how RHE is now burning in hell, I want no part of that tribe and no part of the “god” they seem to believe in.
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grabaspine said:
Welcome to the Recovery IB.
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Arkenaten said:
Brave sentiments, IB.
But I ask once more, how do you know people who express such sentiments are wrong in their interpretation of the bible/God’s word?
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dpmonahan said:
I think you are stuck with them whether you like it or not, just like they are stuck with the Rachel Evans of the world.
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adad0 said:
Mark 9
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”
Gosh Memi, that Jesus cuts to the chase doesn’t He? ; – )
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grabaspine said:
Is he saying to set yourselves and others on Fire? As in real… Fire?
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adad0 said:
No Jesus is referring to “trial by fire” and purification by fire, with the visual of temple sacrifice. He Himself became our sacrifice shortly thereafter. At that time, as now, salt is a purifier as well.
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grabaspine said:
Fire ‘purifies’ by destroying. In reality, it doesn’t purify at all. It just destroys what can’t withstand it. The remaining isn’t purified, it just remains what it already is…
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insanitybytes22 said:
Salt was used to seal a covenant, as we see in Leviticus 2:13, Numbers 18:19, and 2 Chronicles 13:5. Men at the time would make a bargain with one another and seal the deal with a pinch of salt. When a baby was born it was actually salted down as a way of declaring paternity. Ezekiel 16:4 makes mention of this saying, “when you were born…you were not salted.” It’s being used as an insult in this context, a way of calling someone an unclaimed child, a bastard.
Fire is the Holy Spirit. God is our consuming fire. When Jesus speaks in Mark 9 He is saying, you have been claimed by your Father, (salted,) and you have the Holy spirit in you, (fire.) He says, “Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.” Have salt among yourselves is like saying, have faith in the covenant. Be confident, your father has claimed you. Be at peace.
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Julie (aka Cookie) said:
Love it IB— welcoming Ark to humanity — life, death, how even well meaning Christians can screw things up…the key being redemption and salvation vs rejection and an empty void— glad to see you up and running and unafraid 🙂
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Arkenaten said:
Thank you Julie, but trust me, I am already a member of humanity and one that does not need superstitious nonsense to feel happy, content, and fulfilled.
I am interested though as to what you mean by ”an empty void”?
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Julie (aka Cookie) said:
Hi Ark— we’ve got another grand baby so my time is not my own right now— but I’ll get back to your query shortly— hope all is well in South Africa
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Arkenaten said:
Being a grandmother is far more important that being a blogger!
South African general elections notwithstanding – everything is fine, Julie, thank you.
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Julie (aka Cookie) said:
Two under two 🤪
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Arkenaten said:
Ah ..the delight of changing nappies!
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Julie (aka Cookie) said:
✖️ 2 ugh 😑
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Mel Wild said:
Wow! Well said, IB. I loved every word. 🙂
I especially liked what you said here, which is the crux of the whole thing for me, too…
“If people wanted to surprise the hell out of me, to throw me into a state of complete bafflement, they’d just be kind to one another, love their neighbor, and actually follow what Jesus Christ taught.”
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Arkenaten said:
The salient point that is missing here is the one I raised with Wally – that this Wilson bloke said nothing publicly his personal beliefs (presuming he too is one who supports some form of fundamentalism) means he – and what he might share privately or even addressing her death obliquely, perhaps in a sermon,do not detract from what he considers has happened to this woman – burning in hell form eternity.
When such revolting ideas are passed on by way of sermons or instruction then such ideas are held by a wider and wider group of people.
That is NOT a healthy position and needs to be addressed.
Evans did address it. Look what happened to her!
Do you begin to see the problem?
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insanitybytes22 said:
LOL! Lord forgive me for having to defend Wilson, but I’m fairly confident he said what he meant and meant what he said. He is NOT writing civilized things about her passing away while quietly believing she is in hell.
Second of all, indeed, “revolting ideas are passed on by way of sermons or instruction” except you are leaving off the rest of the tale. Good ideas are also passed along that way! Also, many people are capable of thinking critically and of thinking for themselves.
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Arkenaten said:
You are being mean again, IB, with your moderating.
Let the discussion be more open. Perhaps , contrary to what Wally believes, perhaps common ground can be found?
What do you say?
I promise to be civil.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Can’t. I’m off to work. Stay out of trouble, Ark.
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Tom Salmon said:
Glad you are posting again.
Don’t know anything about Rachel Held Evans. Never heard of the lady until I saw your post. I suppose I will have to listen to her “Keep the Church Weird” talk.
Was Rachel Held Evans an apostate? Don’t know. I do know the Bible is clear we should not support apostates in their “work,” but there is no rule against talking to them or loving them. It is an odd thought, but if Hitler finally repented and believed in Jesus, we will find him in heaven too. And that will be because he finally accepted God’s love and loved Him in return.
How would Hitler have learned about God’s love? Because someone love him in spite of the fact he was an awful asshat, all to much like the rest of the human race.
What is tribalism? It is about “us” and “them.” Christians are part of the family of God. We are “us” to us. Since them is just people who have yet to join the family I don’t see much wrong with tribalism, at least from a Christian perspective.
It doesn’t pay to demonize people. There are some swine and dogs that leave no choice. Because they are so dangerous, we must protect ourselves from them. Hitler was one such and a frightful example, but most thieves, murderers, swindlers, and the like pose more mundane threats. Thieves, murderers, swindlers, and the like are dangerous enough we need to lock them up, and we would be foolish if we did not. Most of us, however, are just too self-centered to know God. As you suggest, that is the Hell — not knowing the love of our Maker and not returning that love — from which only the grace of God can release us.
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Arkenaten said:
As you seem to be back from work can you please release the comments you are holding in moderation?
Thanks.
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RichardP said:
@Arkenaten asked: how do you know people who express such sentiments are wrong in their interpretation
Consider Schrödinger’s cat in its box (search Wikipedia on that term). It is either dead or alive, but we can’t know which while we cannot observe it’s state. According to the Bible, God alone is the arbiter of who is welcomed back to the Tree of Life beside the Throne of God or is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death (from which there has been no ressurection promised).
Since we cannot know, only God can, then whether someone is wrong or right about the fate of Ms. Evans is irrelevant. What is relevant is this: since we cannot know the state of Ms. Evans, only God can, then we should not be making public proclamations about that state.
Perhaps overkill, but I will repeat: Schrödinger’s cat is either dead or alive, but we cannot know which until we see it’s state. Therefore, it is meaningless for us to assert publically whether the cat is dead or alive. Likewise, Ms Held will either be welcomed into the Joy of the Lord at some future point at the Judgement Seat, or she will be banished to the Lake of Fire. Since we cannot know which until we see her state (assuming God ever allows us to see it), it is meaningless for us to assert publically what her state is. It is foolishness for us to make such proclamations.
The New Testament says that no one can say that Jesus is Lord (of their life) without the help of the Holy Spirit. That truth is what give the words in this post any relevance. In spite of all of the “wrongness” or “rightness” Ms. Held said over time, none of us can know what activity the Holy Spirit set about doing with Ms Held in the minutes or hours or days before she was chemically put into the coma from which she never awoke. If the Holy Spirit called, and Ms. Held responded, everything she had done in her life up to that point would suddenly become irrelevant.
Salvation is not acquired through works. Rather, works are the evidence of salvation. What works of the thief on the cross beside Jesus can we point to that “prove” his salvation? But do any of us doubt that Jesus meant it when he said “this day will you be with me in paradise”?. What the thief had done prior to the cross suddenly became irrelevant the moment he responded to the Holy Spirit’s call to repentance. It was that response to the call to repentance that made the difference.for the thief. It is that response to the call for repentance that make the difference for us. And it is that call to repentance that make the difference for Ms. Held. And our response to the Holy Spirit’s call to repentance is binding – regardless of whether there is a crowd there to witness the call and response or not. There was a crowd there for the thief on the cross. There probably was no crowd there for Ms Evans. But if the Holy Spirit was active in her life, it was binding even if no one else knew about it.
So – again – none of us can know. Only God. So it is foolish to publically proclaim that we do know.
Arkenaten, based on what the Bible says, that is the only possible response to your question.
Happy Mother’s Day to all you mothers.
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Arkenaten said:
However, several thousand christian denominations preach that THEY are the right form of Christianity.
So, based on this alone there is equal chance that one is right or they are all wrong.
To explore your thesis some more:
Publicly, privately. It is belief that counts.
And as Jesus didn’t teach it, why teach /believe the doctrine of Hell in the first place?
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, I think Jesus really did teach and speak about hell. It’s just that what He actually taught is not the same “doctrine of hell” often embraced by many modern Western Christian evangelicals. I believe many of our modern perceptions of hell tend to be more cultural than biblical.
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Arkenaten said:
Quite. The Christian doctrine of Hell is more akin to Dante’s inferno than what Jesus is claimed to have taught.
Hell, as is commonly understood by Christians, does not feature in Judaism – and of course, Jesus was a Jew so it would be completely ludicrous for him to have taught it.
This much should be obvious if one is prepared to be honest and do a little research.
What Jesus taught concerned Gehenna.
You know where Gehenna is I presume?
As there is no direct transliteration in English .As the NT was written in Greek and not by a group of illiterate fisherman either) the word used was Hades (which also features). And in English the word closest to this was Hell.
It was naughty Christians who invented the idea of eternal damnation and torture. Or in context of the Rachel Evans story …. ”Burning in Hell”.
Terrorizing children with such things is quite obscene.
And certainly not something Jesus would have taught.don’t you agree?
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insanitybytes22 said:
I agree with everything you’ve said, except it wasn’t “naughty Christians” who invented modern perceptions of hell, it was actually pagans, going way back to the Greeks, Egyptians, etc, etc. There was no Jewish “hell, ” there isn’t even a Hebrew word for “Hades.” Hades didn’t even come into the bible until it was translated in Greek. Jesus spoke of Gehenna.
So basically much of our modern Western perceptions of “hell” have been taken from those who really did sacrifice children and throw people into fire to appease their “gods.”
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Arkenaten said:
Correct! I should have rather used the term naughty Christians adapted from the pagan rituals of human sacrifice.
Still seems rather obscene that Christians would still teach this and claim Jesus did too.
Maybe some of those reading along will take note, if not from me but from what you write.
It might even be worth a post from you.
You know, set the record straight?
There are plenty of Christians who are completely ignorant of the history of this doctrine and it would carry a lot more weight if explained by one of their own rather than a atheist like me, as we all know atheists are awful people! 😉
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insanitybytes22 said:
I know of several Christians who have addressed some of the modern misconceptions about hell. MJ and Mel just to name two of them. 🙂
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Arkenaten said:
I would hardly call the doctrine of Hell – eternal torture, burning in hell for eternity etc- ”modern”.
And yes I am aware Mel has written about these supposed misconceptions. However, he still believes there is some form of Hell, which is an incorrect term in itself, and thus quite misleading. I reiterate, Jesus, as a Jew, never taught this .
You mention MJ has wrtitten on the topic. I would be very interested if you could supply a link to any material.
The primary reason why I suggested you write a post outlining that Jesus never taught this doctrine is to demonstrate the misconceptions in a more straightforward manner, without couching it in terms designed not to derail those who visit here who firmly believe in the eternal fiery pit etc nonsense.
It probably won’t convince those of the hardened heart variety but it will at least demonstrate you understand the real position of Jesus in this regard so as to remove any ambiguity.
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Wally Fry said:
IB. In case you are missing the point, what Ark wants you to do is turn like a rabid dog on the likes of fundies like me. Note his desire that you quit wording it in way to not derail others. What stone brain doesn’t get is that you can actually believe or say what you want and others won’t be derailed. As if my faith depends on what you say lol.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Nah, I got the point, Wally. It’s an atheist game of separate, divide, and conquer. Not going to happen.
Pretty funny though, today in church we’re on Jonah and the pastor wove in some good stuff on grace, mercy, and the, “doctrine of hell.” Love that perfect timing! Made me smile.
I also love many fundamentalist, but see they get it, they understand. You would never see them screaming at their fellow brothers and sisters on twitter or the street. It has just been a rough couple of weeks in the evangelical world, lot of poor behavior on the part of people who really ought to know better.
It was actually a fundamentalist who once taught me how to say, “may the Lord show you the same grace and mercy He has shown me.” That is how we treat other people, as God treats us. Grace is very reflective, if we aren’t extending it to others, then that means we aren’t receiving it ourselves.
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Wally Fry said:
Nailed it IB. But it makes people like Ark nuts. He’s over at my place trying to go nuts because he thinks I need to publicly repent of my error and tell you that you are correct. Doesn’t he even get this post actually isn’t about that doctrine anyway? Of course he does, but the idea of a couple of Christians disagreeing, perhaps strongly, and not hating each other makes him nuts.
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insanitybytes22 said:
LOL! Sorry for the trouble, Wally. I did laugh at the context in which Ark commented, at the verse you posted. “Be of good cheer, I have over come the world…..” It seems to me that’s a great passage for ending all disagreements about hell. 🙂
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Wally Fry said:
Hey that’s a really good point!
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MJThompson said:
The precise “degree of dissonance” can be resolved in this case by making the relationship between the two elements (hell & demons) a consonant one. The Article about Hell is the result of scholarly research into Scriptural references and historical origins. The recapitulation of the data is intended to demonstrate exactly what Scripture promotes, with the preconception that Scripture – when properly interpreted – is divinely inspired.
The belief in demons comes from an identical approach to Scripture. They are included in the pantheon of Biblical texts, describing them as evil spirits and fallen angels, the chief among them identified as Satan. Therefore, just as hell is mentioned and requires further study to rightly comprehend, demonology must be likewise thoughtfully scrutinized, NOT dismissed as merely mythological.
While much of the knowledge of demons is derived from extra-biblical sources, theologians agree that they indeed exist throughout the Old & New Testaments. They, unlike hell, are introduced as actual supernatural beings opposed to the will of God. Conversely, the former Article by design, pointed out the overwhelming majority of citations that carry figurative and/or allegorical references, NOT to be confused with a literal interpretation.
Those who reject the notion of hell or demons due to suspicion regarding the authenticity of Scripture may also find criticism in many historical accounts contained within. Ultimately, what we believe is empirically related to WHO we believe.
If we sincerely believe in God and that Scripture is His Word, then we take its admonitions seriously and strive to diligently seek the truth proclaimed therein.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” – 2Tim. 3:16, 17.
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” – 2Tim. 2:15.
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Lily Pierce said:
IB, everything you said about the hateful hypocrisy of evangelicals, people being asshats by and large, Jesus being the standard that shows us what is right and wrong behavior…I was mentally raising my hands and shouting, “Hallelujah!”
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