A title a bit tongue in cheek perhaps, but I thought this kid was right on and he just nailed it. Yep, me too, you betcha, been there and done that. That’s the Lord I know, too!
And then here come the Accusers of the Brethren, the minions of social media with their little fiery darts to stone the heretic and accuse him of blasphemy. Some charming soul demanded I denounce this kid forthright and I thought, Oh heck no, I’m going to actually celebrate the beauty of his words and post them on my blog!
So the essence of the complaint was, “Jesus is NOT responsible for the sins and rebellion of those in the Body of Christ.”
So who do you suppose is responsible?
That’s a serious question! If Jesus didn’t die for the sins and rebellion of those in the body of Christ, then who did He die for??
Also, show me the part in the bible where its says, “you shall be saved by your willingness to play Stone the Blasphemer???”
So here’s what I’m going to say, it is exceedingly painful to confront the fact that every sin against you, is actually a sin against Jesus. And every sin you commit against another person is actually, a sin against Jesus. He is the one who chose to take responsibility for us, “for God so loved the world.” He is the One who allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross and crucified for our sake.
That’s really uncomfortable, painful, disconcerting, distressing. It hurts, it makes you vulnerable. It’s unfair even! I sin, and Jesus hurts on my behalf. Jesus bears the sins of our inequities. So you know what I try to do? Grieve Him as little as possible. How can one look in the face of such love, such sacrifice, such grace, and not honor it as best as you possible can?
Mind, body, and soul. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
So you can hate this little video or you can love it, but one thing a Christian should NOT be doing is running about proclaiming, “Jesus is NOT responsible for the sins and rebellion of those in the Body of Christ.” Because if you miss the part about how He really is responsible, and even sin free, blame free, Holy, He still took full responsibility for us, well heck, if you miss that part you’ve pretty much just missed the whole boat.
My path to forgiveness also began with Jesus taking a hold of me and saying, I’m so sorry that happened to you. Do you forgive me, and will you learn trust me again? Do you accept that my blood is not only enough to cover you, but enough to cover them,too?
I do, because “responsibility” is not about guilt, blame, or innocence, it is about power and authority and Who holds it.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Hmm.. I truly try to stay out of religious interpretation and introspection but you said something here that perhaps you might indulge me some context to what you stated. Obviously it’s neither right nor wrong.. and I am in no way qualified to debate this kinda thing.
You said…
[My path to forgiveness also began with Jesus taking a hold of me and saying,] “I’m so sorry that happened to you. Do you forgive me, and will you learn trust me again? Do you accept that my blood is not only enough to cover you, but enough to cover them,too?”
By that you are saying… Christ is apologizing to YOU for the event(s) that have negatively affected your life.. and then asking for YOUR forgiveness?
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@Doug
I cannot speak for IB. So don’t take it that way. Just observe that God is ultimately responsible for everything. We are His creations, and He is omniscient. So what we do is ultimately under His control. Therefore, we have to wonder. Why does God allow sin? This is the best answer I have.
Have you ever watched a child learned to walk? Before that child learns to walk, that child must fall and fall and fall and fall. As parents we must let our child fall, or our child will never learn to walk. So it is that I think God permits us to sin. He wants us to learn how to walk with Him, and this is the only way we will learn.
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Yet with IB’s interpretation, Christ is apologizing.
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@Doug
We have something of a paradox.
Only God could take responsibility for our sins and die for our sins in our place. Yet we chose to sin, not Him.
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Still doesn’t answer my question.
In past years I have oft used the.. discussion… of the Almighty sitting idly by while man goes through phases of trying to destroy him/her self.. then seeming to blame man through the imposition of guilt… to which follows a long litany of people providing scripture and verse that says essentially God answers to no one and doesn’t need to apologize for a thing. So I take notice when someone of IB’s obvious devotion to verse and scripture and all things Biblical for her own life, and she says Christ apologized to her and said He was sorry for her own unfortunate experiences in life. I mean.. I know I have this “sinful” human trait of daring to assign human behavioral interpretation to apparent Divine action (or inaction) because I have no frame of reference, never having been divine myself, so her remark raised an eyebrow with me.
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@Doug
The notion of God apologizing is a new one for me, but even though God does not change we do. The problem of evil besets this age more than most. We demand an explanation, but I don’t pretend to have one that will perfectly satisfy you. I just suggest Romans 8:28-30. What God propose to do for those who love Him is astonishing, and I don’t understand that either.
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Oh c’mon.. this is the elementary pretext for religion. Heck.. having been in the funeral business I’ve heard my share of God-blaming.. and I’ve defended “God” when appropriate to engage with the human condition. Then you have just the 20th century world tragedies alone to toss onto that pile of “blame”. You don’t have something in all that religious-ness you post to attempt some explanation?
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@Doug
Where did I blame God?
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I never said you did. You said this “blaming God” was all new to you hence you could offer no comment on my question regarding IB’s remark in her post. To which I responded.. in surprise, that given all your religious posts, you had no comment on what is likely the most basic, and common, critique to God?
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@Doug
You seem a bit confused to me. If you want to be still more confused, try reading the first two chapters of the Book of Job.
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Oh I have never claimed to be a religious contemporary, Tom. I’m personally not looking for spiritual answers to bolster whatever it is I may be lacking. I’m not interested enough to read the Bible.. and I am sure I am the same as the bulk of the religious community. If we all read it and understood what we were reading we’d not likely need as many pastors, priests, and religious potentates to interpret it for us. But that’s just me.
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“I’m not interested enough to read the Bible.. and I am sure I am the same as the bulk of the religious community.”
Yeah. Sadly I think what you’ve said is very truthful and I think a good chunk of the religious community feels the same.
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Does me not reading the Bible mean I am any less.. religious… than a person who reads it a couple times a year or more? I realize you are not accusing.. I was simply carrying the question further…. since you said “sadly”.
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Well, it saddens me to see what we’ve done in the world. When people don’t read the bible, don’t go to church, don’t really know the Lord, and aren’t even interested in pursuing Him more, we have failed, “we” of the church. We’ve failed to deliver “the good news that brings great joy.” Instead we’ve just burdened people with needless guilt and shame and helped to separate them farther from Jesus. That’s the sad part.
And to reiterate the point this guy made in his video, I suspect Jesus really would say, “I’m so sorry that happened to you. Will you forgive me and learn to trust me again?”
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A good reply.. you explained yourself well. I mean that not judgmentally; you certainly don’t need my affirmation and I am unqualified to give it. I meant context and substance. 🙂
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LOL, I think Tom did a good job of holding down the fort while I was away!
But in response to Doug, yes, I am saying exactly that. Here’s your words, “God answers to no one and doesn’t need to apologize for a thing.”
That is very true, He answers to no one and doesn’t need to apologize for a thing, but He chose too! It pleased Him to do so on the cross. It’s a demonstration of His compassion and His character. Ironically, you showed that very same ideal on a comment in one of my posts. Something about being sorry for what happened, wishing you could have been there to help, to provide cover. That is actually very Christ like, Doug. That really is the essence of Jesus and the sacrifice He made for us all
What you’ve said here sadly captures the flavor of “religion”, not the fragrance of Jesus at all, and it’s sad because it’s such a poor substitute for the truth, “the Almighty sitting idly by while man goes through phases of trying to destroy him/her self.. then seeming to blame man through the imposition of guilt…”
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I’m sure it’s all more complex than necessary.. not what you feel.. I am referring to the possible interpretations in commenting about my query. As I mentioned to Tom.. I’ve had to deal with this question in real time with grieving human beings and in most cases my Christian references seemed to satisfy for the moment.
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Something I have always loved is Hebrew 12:2, “looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.”
So Jesus went willingly, He chose to die for us, “for the joy that was set before him.” He also “despised the shame” on our behalf. So He paid the ransom,it is finished.
For some odd reason, a whole bunch of religious people will completely flip that message around. Rather then a God of joy, we suddenly wind up with this God of wrath. And rather then, “you’ve been set free, Jesus took shame upon Himself,” we seem to tell people, pick up as much shame, condemnation,and guilt, as you possibly can carry.
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Perhaps that begs another question… when religion deceives, who determines that it does?
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Well, I just ask God for His wisdom. Then we have the bible, some trusted Jesus followers in or personal lives, and thousands of Christians who walked before us. Most of the time, religion doesn’t get it wrong at all, but our personal beliefs and perceptions can sure go awry.
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And who decides what needs fixing and how does alleged Bible misinterpretation get fixed? If I posted in here that everyone’s interpretation of the Bible is totally nuts… (which I obviously do not believe one bit.. so don’t start lighting your torches and storming my castle) who decides that it’s nuts.. and who determines what needs fixing.. and how does it get fixed?
Kinda reminds me of the old Ed Ames tune from the 60’s.. “Who Will Answer?”.. if you look it up listen to the words.
But besides that…
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@Doug
We each belong to God. God is our Father. We are His children.
“Religion” is not the answer. We use the term “religion” because that is the term we have, but what a religion is about stuff we do. Christianity, however, is about what God has done for us. He has found us, redeemed us, and called each of us to a personal relationship with Him.
The message of the New Testament is that with the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ we each have direct access with the Father. With His blood, Jesus has covered our sins. We need only repent of our sins and believe in the salvation offered by Jesus.
We no longer need the form of religion. The Church has become our family. God is our Father, and All of us are His children. We read the Bible because the Bible tells us about our Father.
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@IB
Very good!
It is Biblical that God does not sin. So I am a bit puzzled as to why anyone would accuse the Bethel Church Youth Leader of blasphemy. His vision of Jesus asking his forgiveness is a bit unusual, but in his interpretation he is the sinner, the one in the wrong, not Jesus.
I fear some are just too ready to find fault.
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Yes,we people can be emotionally driven, reactionary, and quick to try to find fault.
I also think the truth can just make us really uncomfortable and perhaps this guy just “triggered” some people.
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I’m looking forward to watching this video, but I’m commenting before. I want to share the fact that I AM a little confused about the point of this post, and admittedly a little skeptical. However, since IB gives me every reason to give her the benefit of the doubt, I will reserve any comment till later.
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OK, so I watched it. I’m thinking maybe I should comment while typing on a computer, but I don’t have the time nor luxury at the moment. If I’m going to comment, it must be now, with my thumb on my phone.
Because I understand the idea behind the sentiment, I want to be careful to be gracious, not a “dart thrower.” But to be very clear, what we feel about things should be subservient to truth. Visions, regardless of how they may help heal one’s hurts, must align with revealed Scripture, else it’s sentimental, emotionally-based dreams or wishful thinking at best, heretical lies induced by demonic pizza at worst.
Fact: Jesus died to satisfy the righteous judgement of God against sin. He paid the sin debt for all those would accept this free gift of propitiation, but under no circumstance did Jesus accept the blame for the debt paid. Please understand, should Jesus in any way accept the blame, that is the same thing as saying He was responsible for the debt. If He accepted responsibility, then He would be accepting guilt! But the whole reason the blood of Jesus was efficacious was the fact that He was absolutely blameless, without fault.
I understand that people tend to blame God when they are hurt by people who wear His name. I understand that it is easy to draw the conclusion that since all believers are part of the Body of Christ (the Church), when one member hurts another, it is the Body of Christ (i.e., Jesus) that hurts us. But laying the blame on Jesus, or even Jesus would accept the blame, is a dangerous manipulation of the “body” illustration.
I know this might not sound nice, but instead of Jesus asking us to forgive Him for the sins of His pastors, maybe we should repent of blaming Him and forgive those who trespass against us.
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“Please understand, should Jesus in any way accept the blame, that is the same thing as saying He was responsible for the debt.”
Anthony, He paid our debt in full. He took total responsibility for our sins. He paid our ransom. He is Holy, sin free, and blameless, but He still took full responsibility and paid our debt.
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I’m not trying to be obstinate, nor am I trying to squash the feeling, but can you imagine Jesus looking down from the cross saying, “I’m sorry”? No, what he actually said was “Father, forgive them.”
All I am saying is that we must be careful not to let what sounds good to supersede sound theology/Christolgy. I do, most certainly, believe Jesus weeps with us and for us (we see that in Scripture). I could even imagine Him saying something like “I’m sorry this happened to you.” But Jesus actually apologizing and accepting blame is something that has serious soteriological implications.
We must be careful. But I’m not writing anybody off. Too big of a fan of IB to do that 🙂
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It’s all good Anthony, I know you care about the Lord and about protecting our understanding of Him and of the Bible.
I think part of the problem is that people can get confused about the difference between taking “responsibility” and taking “blame.” Blame somehow signifies wrong doing and sin. But it really concerns me, because if we don’t understand that Jesus died for us personally, that it is the weight of our own sin resting on His shoulders, then we do we even really understand the message of the cross?
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If more people understood that, there would certainly be more genuine repentance, no doubt. Like the turnaround in the song “Here I Am to Worship,” we will “never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross.” Unless, of course, we search the Scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to open our eyes to the beauty and wonder of that gift. But that would be too humiliating, wouldn’t it? To recognize the full weight of every little sin?
But to borrow from a song I wrote, with crimson-colored mercy He washed away my shame as He reassured me I was worth the nails. Amazing. Just amazing. How can we NOT worship Him?
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Amen! 🙂
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I agree a lot with what Anthony Baker said. Jesus was sinless, thus able to die on the cross for our sins.
As ambassadors to Christ maybe God could apologize that imperfect people don’t represent Him perfectly, but God can’t in any way be guilty of wrong doing – so He doesn’t owe us an apology.
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Have you ever apologized to someone who got hit by a bus on the other side of town? Like, “I’m so sorry this happened to you?” Or perhaps said you were sorry when someone died?
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Jesus cried when Lazarus died, it wasn’t Christ’s fault but He understands our woes. In other words Jesus is compassionate, He has the ability to say “I understand” because Jesus walked this Earth. This still isn’t the same as apologizing or saying I’m sorry in my view.
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Hmm. Well, I think the tale of Lazarus is a good one because Mary does blame Him, she refuses to greet Him and when she finally does come, she falls at his feet and says, “Lord if you had been here, he would not have died.”
And that was true and it moved Jesus deeply, and He wept, because He had deliberately delayed His return. Lazarus needed to die for the glory of God so he could be resurrected.
This is where I think things can get sticky for us people, for our own understanding. It wasn’t Christ “fault” that Lazarus died, but it was the Father’s will, it happened under God’s sovereignty and Jesus deliberately did not return to stop it.
So whether one is weeping or saying they are sorry or simply expressing compassion is more a matter of semantics then truth. Mary blamed Jesus and Jesus wept is the essence of the tale.
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In this example ( story of Lazarus) people shouldn’t be focused on Lazarus’s death, but rather that Jesus is the resurrection. We can mourn and look for an apology from God for the bad things He allowed, but we should praise God because He provides the resurrection to those who have faith in Christ. It’s a matter of what we focus on.
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Two pence. I would be cautious to abrade the lady who spirts the blue dress- especially when she with a full history of faithful stability to the word of God- just maybe she comes from an angle that some have not consider.
Not necessarily wrong- but different, like the five blind men describing the elephant. One is no better than the other four.
So when I hear the Lord apologizing- we know He is blameless and cannot sin- but as the HEAD of the body- where we know emphatically that where one member suffers- so does the whole body- who are we to say that the Head is oblivious to the pain of the right toe?
Truly the Lord has borne our reproach- and yes, He was wounded in the house of His friends, but remember the Martha Martha? Almost sounds like He entered into her lack of appreciation for the better part, and maybe what the young man speaks of, and what IB defends, is simply recognizing the better part, but I would be carful to write someone off because they see differently than others.
Can I tell you of the scorn leveled at believers, (unfairly) because some are convinced our world is motionless and stable as the rock of Gibraltar. Nuff said. It’s called liberty, and try to be gracious til such time as more light is received.
This is jack the barbarian and I fully endorse my opinion. Lol
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LOL! Thanks for your kindness, Colorstorm. Much appreciated.
It grieves me no end that we Christians struggle so hard with the idea that taking responsibility somehow indicates blame, sin, and wrong doing. Dads for example,kid accidentally breaks a window, dad takes responsibility, apologizes for it, and probably pays for it too. He’s not to blame, He didn’t do anything wrong, in fact, he just did something right. He claimed authority and responsibility.
If that’s the breadth of our love for our own kids, how much greater is the Father’s love for us?
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But isn’t it great that you have resident theologians who lovingly and graciously attempt to keep your feet held to the fire without singeing your blue hem? All in love, believe me.
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I am exceedingly grateful and abundantly blessed. 🙂
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What better thought to keep in mind than to know that ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth, belongs not to Degrasse, Hawkins, Dawkins, or Paul the apostle- but to Christ.
In spite of our shortcomings and failures, successes and trials, that is assuring as well as comforting to know- then there is always that Comforter thing- to remind us.
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God doesn’t apologize, but we can still forgive him.
If you think about it, our need to forgive isn’t dependent on what was done to us. You can stand in need to forgive that hiring manager who denied you a needed job years ago, though he was just doing his job and you honestly weren’t the most qualified. You can stand in need to forgive the coworker who came to work sick and gave you a bug that turned into a far worse infection. You can stand in need to forgive the friend who finally confronted you with something you needed to hear, but you didn’t want to hear it.
Forgiveness is about our heart, not the wrong. It’s releasing anger and resentment. Which means God is a valid recipient of forgiveness. It doesn’t mean he did anything wrong.
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Amen, Brandon! That’s a really good point. It’s like singing that “somebody done me wrong song.” Sometimes we need to forgive people who were being perfectly reasonable, who have done no wrong.
I really like what this kid said, because often the bigger sin that eats away at us is our own bitterness, resentment, anger, unforgiveness. Those are the things that come between us and God, that separate us from Him.
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Here’s a cool quote from CS Lewis that kind of goes well with this post, “Jesus told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly offended in all offenses.”
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I thought it was a GREAT video, but I’m not sure people who want to argue doctrine will appreciate the subtlety of what the guy in the video was actually saying. I think the salient point is, what we do reflects on Jesus because we are His body. And Jesus comes to this man, not to express a doctrine, but relationally, to heal him of an offense. A couple things he said in this regard…
“Holding unforgiveness against them is like you’re holding it against me, because they are a member of my body.”
“It wasn’t that God inflicted the pain, it’s that God took the blame for the pain…”
There is nothing theologically wrong with these statements when we see them in a relational light. We are Jesus’ body. He takes full responsibility for His own body. And, it is theologically true that if we hurt a brother or sister in the Lord, we are hurting Jesus. And He took those sins on the cross, too.
We Bible-believing people tend to forget that God is not a bunch of doctrines that must be enforced, but a Person who speaks to us in many different ways and much deeper than doctrines can do. In fact, if you look at Jesus’ life, He had no problem whatsoever offending people’s doctrines. Instead, His words spoke life. The letter of the Law kills. Unfortunately, we’re better at the latter when it comes to “accusing the brethren” than we are at the former.
Anyway, the video was awesome. Thanks for stirring the pot, IB. I love it! 🙂
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Oh, amen to your whole comment, Mel! When I really came to know the Lord intimately, one of the hardest things for me was realizing I now ran the risk of “offending people’s doctrines.” People I really liked!
Finally this pastor told me pretty much what you just said, “you know who really offended people’s doctrines?” Jesus!
And that is so true! What is the biggest blessing of my life? Jesus offending my doctrines. 🙂
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Well, I’m old school. I think words have meaning, and the meaning apologize is, “express regret for something that one has done wrong” (Oxford American Dictionary). I haven’t researched other dictionaries, but I suspect they say the same type of thing. It’s the “something that one has done wrong that divides us, I think. Scripture teaches that Jesus was qualified to pay the penalty for sin specifically because He committed no sin. No wrong.
Christ can empathize and clearly did and does. (Saying, “I’m sorry for your loss,” is very different from saying, “I apologize for your loss.” I was even taught that in conflict resolution discussions). Jesus bears our guilt and our shame at the cross. Yet He did no wrong. So saying He apologizes, implies, because of the meaning of the word, that He has or did do something wrong. It’s all in word choices. If we want to change the meaning of “apologize,” then we can square the statement with Scripture, but if we let the word stand as it is commonly understood, I think the guy misspoke and gives room for many to miss what he wanted to say and to miss what Jesus actually did.
Becky
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P. S. I don’t think this is a “doctrinal” debate. Is anyone saying they think Jesus actually did do something wrong? I think it’s a matter of understanding what video guy was trying to communicate. I think his point was great, but his wording camouflages that with an incorrect word choice. He really needed a good editor! 😉
Becky
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LOL! He just needs a good editor! 🙂
You mentioned being old school, well there’s a bit of old school marriage advice that’s really wise, “Always be the first to say ‘Sorry’, even if you know that you’re not wrong!” It’s actually called a “bridge builder,” as in it builds a bridge to restoration, relationship, and intimacy.
Well, that’s exactly who and what Jesus is, a bridge builder who brings us into a restored and intimate relationship.
I’m really concerned that so many Christians are taking “sorry” or “apologies” to mean the same thing as repentance and wrong doing, because what it really is, is an expression of grace.
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