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For a bit of back story, my question to Pastor Wilson so long ago was, How is it you continue to teach this stuff year after year, never seeming to understand how it is received subjectively in the hearts of men, perverted, and translated out into harming real women’s lives? Men’s lives too, for that matter.
So I have suggested that Dalrock and the other red pills are a bit like a mirror, the tangible evidence of what rotten fruit such religious teachings on headship and patriarchy actually produce.
Recently Pastor Wilson just kind of poo pooed the whole notion, casually mentioned that some guys go, “the Dalrock route,” never really clarifying what that even means. So one of those Dalrockians wrote to Wilson and asked him that very question, “what is the “Dalrock route?” and he answered here, “….from what I have seen, I would describe the Dalrock route as over-realized patriarchy. This is not the same thing as extreme patriarchy (the toxic kind), and it is not the same thing as my own version of (amazingly balanced) patriarchy. I speak as a man, as Paul might say, and that’s the problem, as RHE might say.”
Then he proceeded to say he stopped reading Dalrock because Dalrock always insists on misunderstanding him. I’m going to go with, Uh, No. Dalrock actually understands what is being said very well and runs with it, as so many men often do. Dalrock is actually the fruit, the product of such religious teachings, as are his merry men of the degrade and demean woman at every turn variety, because it’s allegedly Godly. And Godly of course obviously means manly. And manly obviously means, against anything womanly.
Because allegedly Eve is just cursed and brought sin into the world and continues to do so today and she must forever be contained least she try to do it again.
So I rather like Pastor Wilson’s fantasy, his sweet world of alleged “amazingly balanced patriarchy. ” I like it very much, I could totally live there, and sometimes I actually do, but I don’t really believe in it at all, not one whit, in fact I think it’s an outright lie and a rather cruel one at that.
For one it just creates weak men and fearful women, and the fearful women are supposed to just submit more to the weak men, because you know, nothing is more likely to give you a severe case of depression than looking up at your alleged rock of strength and all spiritual maturity and realizing the man is nothing more then a weak and broken vessel even less qualified to solve the world’s problems then you are.
So you know like, depression, anxiety, self mutilation, addiction, eating disorders, and forever having to clean all the porn out of your inbox…..
Then of course there is always the waiting for Prince Charming to get around to having his great spiritual epiphany while you just patiently follow along behind, cleaning up after his horse.
So a man the other day asked me, “Have you been a good girl? Is Santa coming to your house?” And I blurted out, “I certainly hope not! The last thing I want is some fat man coming down my chimney. I’d much rather just glorify in my own badness and buy my own gifts, thank you very much.”
That’s actually a dangerous place of disenchantment to be trapped in, not believing in Santa Claus anymore….. or in the lies and fairy tales that so often flow from the mouths of so many in our churchian leadership.
Because you know, if that is a lie, then what else that you have said is a lie, too?
And you know, as much as I love my family, there are still many days when I deeply envy those who have wisely chosen to just retreat quietly to their apartments full of boxed wine and way too many cats.
That same disenchantment I sometimes feel is what we see all about the world right now, it is why so many are now deconstructing their faith or sadly, rejecting their faith outright.
And the Blind Pharisee’s of Sherwood Forest will just go, rebellion, they’re all in rebellion, and I suppose we are, but in rebellion against what? Against religious lies that have done so much harm, that have left those who are hurting out in the cold to suffer alone??
The only thing that saves me in the midst of all this turbulence is a keen awareness that that is exactly why Jesus came, to deconstruct our very faith, to challenge our lies and deceptions, to launch a full on rebellion against the religious leadership of His day, the very same leadership that eventually helped send Him to the cross.
That was actually us. Us with our carefully crafted theology, our vast moral superiority, our endless legalism, and our complete unwillingness to listen to anyone else at all, or to even see the face of the Lord standing right before us.
My question just sits there today flat and unanswered, like mushy leftovers in the fridge too long, hardly even recognizable anymore, while people just look politely away or perhaps down at the ground, still unable or perhaps unwilling to ever answer me.
And that perhaps gets to the real heart of the matter, the very essence of the problem, when we cannot even hear one another, we certainly cannot hear the Holy Spirit either, and the churchian world just marches on in this kind of macabre dance dropping off bits of itself along the way, like some kind of biological experiment gone horribly awry.
Those bits that have fallen away are my hurting people and those questions I ask are actually their questions, and I am no closer to having an answer for them then when I first began.
Does the church even care? I honestly don’t know. We are the church, I am the church, and if we actually do care we seem to be doing a rather poor job of it.
I seem to be doing a rather poor job of it, but it is not from a lack of caring, it is from a place of sheer powerlessness and never being heard and having now lost all hope that I ever will be.
Child Of God said:
Do not despair!
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sullivanspin said:
Patriarchy is best demonstrated in Christ. As the Groom, Christ died for His bride. Before that He lived a life of service. When this example isn’t focused on, male leadership doctrine goes haywire.
Matthew 20:25-28
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
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gmgoetz said:
“Have you been a good girl? Is Santa coming to your house?” And I blurted out, “I certainly hope not! The last thing I want is some fat man coming down my chimney. I’d much rather just glorify in my own badness and buy my own gifts, thank you very much.”
—No fat man coming down your chimney IB. 😀
I love / enjoy your wit, sense of humour, and discerning ability.
On top of it all, the knowledge of Scripture you have IB, and using Scripture correctly, not out of context to suit your thoughts.
I appreciate your writing greatly.
God Bless you IB, as you continue to be a willing vessel for Him to work in and through.
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Sophia's Children said:
Thanks, I.B. This is one of those important ongoing questions and conversations, with (possible) answers seeming just slightly less hard to arrive at than some fresh consensus and understanding. It’s often frustrating to me as well, as I see it even in church communities that define themselves as more progressive. (That might be even more insidious because it runs under the surface masked by proclamations of greater understanding.) The exploration continues …
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John Branyan said:
I.B. – You know I love ya. You’re a clever writer and a charitable debater. I’d like to answer your question but I honestly don’t know what you’re asking. If I posed this question, how would you respond:
“How is it you continue to blog this stuff year after year, never seeming to understand how it is received subjectively in the hearts of women, perverted, and translated out into harming real relationships?”
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well actually, I’d like to know how it is that men professing the name of Christ can take those beautiful words to be found in Matthew and Ephesians and pervert them into some kind of weird Dalrockian rap song about banging bitches and hos?
But even worse, how come pastors and people like yourself seem completely unable to tell the difference between what Dalrock is selling and what the bible is actually saying? And when the ugliness of such attitudes towards women is pointed out, how come you don’t even care?
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John Branyan said:
“But even worse, how come pastors and people like yourself seem completely unable to tell the difference between what Dalrock is selling and what the bible is actually saying? And when the ugliness of such attitudes towards women is pointed out, how come you don’t even care?”
I do care.
I’ve asked several times for specific examples of this ugliness.
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insanitybytes22 said:
That’s just an exercise in futility and a complete waste of time. I mean, you already read Dalrock and yet you cannot see the ugliness for yourself? So we got guys saying things like,
“Peering deep into the psyche of woman has rendered me grievously scornful in feeling and mercilessly unscrupulous in behaviour towards these unholy, ungodly beings. I venture to say that… I hate them. Yes, I hate them! And how could I not?”
I dislike being an object of scorn, labeled ungodly and unholy, dehumanized, and having unscrupulous behavior towards women now justified, John.
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John Branyan said:
An exercise in futility?!! Ma’am I’ll have you know I read above a 3rd grade level! And I can count to 100 without using my fingers.
This is from a T-Shirt: “There is a God and you ain’t him.” The T-Shirt you ought to wear says: “There is a Devil and Dalrock ain’t him.”
I’ve no doubt Dalrock has committed his share of sins. Sins of which he, as a professed Christian, is absolved. Criticisms need to be specified. General accusations of “ugliness” are not helpful. Quotes from his readers do not necessarily reflect his opinions. Do you hold Mel Wild responsible for what atheists say on his blog?
“I dislike being an object of scorn, labeled ungodly and unholy, dehumanized, and having unscrupulous behavior towards women now justified, John.”
Me too. I also dislike blanket accusations of wrong doing with nothing specific for me to fix.
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insanitybytes22 said:
It’s an exercise in futility because you haven’t got the eyes or the willingness to see any of it. I could post pages of links, but you will simply discredit and disqualify each one. You will spin excuse after excuse, we can’t blame Dalrock for what his hundreds of readers say praising him for inspiring their hatred. We can’t link him to the other red pills he emulates because he puts a Christian spin on it, so that makes the evil go away. We can’t judge him for his own words because obviously he’s just venting or ranting, and sometimes women provoke it anyway.
I don’t like seeing women labeled unholy and ungodly and abuse towards them justified based on a misappropriation of scripture, but your answer to that is going to be, So what? Women do it too and there are these feminists and men are victims too…
So rather then simply naming evil for what it is we will play the blame game and the pass the buck game and the I don’t have to be responsible for the condition of my own heart game. Then likely we will move onto the shoot the messenger game, you’re just making false accusations and being melodramatic and delusional.
What you and all the other Dalrockians can do is fix your own hearts, heal the bitterness.
If I bumped into a cult of women who were calling men unholy,ungodly, declaring them to be demonic, claiming they were’t made in the image of God and they have no souls, I would speak up. If I saw scripture being posted as justification,as God’s stamp of approval,as our mandate to abuse and mistreat them, I would be hollering about it from the rooftops.
That feeling is apparently not mutual and while I can totally forgive people for their unhealed wounds, it is still not okay, it is still promoting hatred and perverting scripture.
It is also the precise opposite of leadership and headship, which is always going to protective, sacrificial, and provide cover.
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John Branyan said:
Apparently, you’ve dusted off the ol’ crystal ball in order to discern my response to hypothetical events.
“If I bumped into a cult of women who were calling men unholy,ungodly, declaring them to be demonic, claiming they were’t made in the image of God and they have no souls, I would speak up.”
Me too. That’s what I’m doing right now. 🙂
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insanitybytes22 said:
Right. But my crystal ball also says you’re out dealing with those women from a place of conquest, dominance, and revenge, and not from a place of love, grace, or compassion. Most likely you’re not even trying to hear those women at all, you’re probably just trying to slay them.
So relationship often requires us to let go of the need to be right and to sacrificially address other people’s needs and to love them. We can’t even know what other people’s needs are when we’re just busy hating on them.
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John Branyan said:
“So relationship often requires us to let go of the need to be right and to sacrificially address other people’s needs and to love them. We can’t even know what other people’s needs are when we’re just busy hating on them.”
…amen.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Feel free to link to my endless hatred of men as is clearly demonstrated on this blog, John. That’s sarcasm by the way.
And next you can just dismiss my objection to having all women labeled unholy, ungodly, and worthy of mistreatment, by simply labeling it “hatred.”
I also pray that when some woman comes to you seeking your protection and support she isn’t met with, So what? You’re ungodly, unholy, full of false accusations, cursed by Eve, and probably Potiphars wife, so whatever bad thing is happening to you is probably just well deserved justice anyway.
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John Branyan said:
Feel free to link to my labeling of women as unholy, ungodly, and worthy of mistreatment.
When anyone (man or woman) comes to me seeking support, I do exactly what I’ve done with you. I ask them to explain their position. I cannot support something I don’t understand.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I can explain my position ad nauseum, but all you’re going to be able to see is Potiphar’s wife, false allegations, and alleged unjust attacks on Dalrock.
So my pleas for you to understand will simply fall on deaf ears.
You don’t really need to ask Dalrock to defend his positions or even to weigh them against scripture yourself, because he tickles your ears and affirms to you what you would like to believe is true.
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A dad said:
Hey Memi!
Again, I thought of you first when “Keith” asked Wilson about Dalrock, as in:
“What is “the Dalrock route?”
Keith
Keith,
from what I have seen, I would describe the Dalrock route as over-realized patriarchy. This is not the same thing as extreme patriarchy (the toxic kind), and it is not the same thing as my own version of (amazingly balanced) patriarchy. I speak as a man, as Paul might say, and that’s the problem, as RHE might say. Over-realized patriarchy has a tendency to assume that the complementarians who gave away the store (and I agree with Dalrock that many of them did give away the store), did so on purpose. In other words, what they tend to describe as conspiracy, I would describe as a mix of conspiracy from some and confused foolishness from others. This also has had an impact on how Dalrock has interacted with some of my stuff, looping me as one of the conspirators to feminize everything. Since I know that he is persistent in reading me incorrectly, eventually I quit reading him.”
First off Memi, how do you know that “Keith” is a Dalrockian? He might be. Does a “Keith” post a lot on Dalrock? I don’t know.
Anyway Memi, take heart! You are simply wrong when you say of yourself that you are in a place of “sheer powerlessness and never being heard and having now lost all hope that I ever will be.”
And yet somehow, you keep talking, and people keep responding! ; – )
Memi,
Elijah once said:
“I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
And God said back:
….18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”
So Memi, I hope you can see that you are being a little too melodramatic! Elijah had the same problem as you, but people were actually trying to kill him. I don’t think anyone is trying to kill you. (are they?)
Memi, please do consider this thought, both you and Wilson receive a fair amount of crap from both the left and the right extremes on any number of topics.
You may want to consider that getting crap from the extremes may be an indicator that both you and Wilson are closer to the balanced center than you think you are.
Also consider that the both of you might be centered right over your respective targets! ; – )
Merry Christmas Memi!
Thanks and Salt, Adad
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insanitybytes22 said:
Melodramatic?? I have known children sold to pedophiles for a bag of meth, Adad. I have watched those children grow up forced to suffer in silence and a church that has completely abandoned them. I don’t think I’m over reacting at all. I’m still watching it all go down today and the church response is the same as always, completely blind, unaware, and unconcerned.
And yes, I am totally powerless to do anything about it.
So Dalrock is advocating some pretty offensive stuff and he’s perverting the gospel. It’s bad enough that Wilson is going to stop reading him, but not bad enough that Wilson is going to actually speak against it or examine what impact his own teachings might be having on people.
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A dad said:
Wow Memi! I think that you shifted catagories on me. I was talking about “Dalrock’s over-realized patriarchy” vs. Wilson’s “amazingly balanced patriarchy”, (balanced by godly matriarchy I might add), and your position that they are current day pharisees, and you came back with “Melodramatic?? I have known children sold to pedophiles for a bag of meth,”.
In any case Memi, I really did mean for you to take heart! As I had mentioned Elijah AS an example, he was dealing with the nation of Israel going over to Baal worship, which included child sacrifice. (which is even worse than trading a child for meth) Elijah thought that as much as he fought against the apostasy of his day, he felt he was alone, and helpless, but God told Elijah that there were still 7000 Godly people yet in Israel, and God also gave Elijah more tasks to do.
So Memi, AS Elijah, I think we should expect that we are not completely alone, or helpless, even when it feels like we are.
As for what to do about pharisees, at one point, Jesus said this:
Matthew 15:13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
To my mind, the fallings out over at “A Cry for Justice”, are an instance of Matthew 15: 13-14 playing out in our time, re: the blind guides on that site.
If Dalrock is not planted by God, Dalrock will be pulled out by the roots at some point, by God or God’s instruments or servants.
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insanitybytes22 said:
True Adad, God will pull them out by the roots in His due time, if He so desires.
Here’s where my heart is however, I don’t really want to see either of them uprooted. I would much prefer to see them both healed, to have a change of heart, and to get on to business of teaching men some good things about who they really are in the Lord.
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necron48 said:
I’m literally beyond words!!!
IB This is one of the best threads I’ve ever seen….You nailed it on so many fronts!
The “Dalrock route” is in my opinion the action a blogger takes where they super moderate their blogs so that nothing gets through unless of course you are part of the inner circle, cough, cough, and and the cowardly act of blocking, banning, and deleting any comment that goes against the particular narrative they happen to be pushing
In the case of Dalrock, his pure hatred of women, and the push for an extreme form of misogynistic patriarchy that most Muslims would love, and the reason he won’t allow comments on his blog is because Christians like YOU or even humble me would destroy his perverted and disgusting views on women
Seriously, what kind of man spends 24/7 railing on and bitching how evil women are?….That’s Dalrock for ya!
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The Night Wind said:
Believe it or not, Dalrock’s view of gender relations is actually more extreme than most of mainstream Islam. Outside of the Wahhabi and Salafist cults, men under Sharia Law don’t have unlimited power over women. Their law doesn’t grant many social rights to women, but it does strictly obligate and enforce men’s treatment of women. For example, if a man falsely accuses a woman of sexual infidelity under Sharia, he’s flogged with 80 lashes in public and blacklisted as a perjurer in legal proceedings.
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necron48 said:
@The Night Wind
Amen!!
Under Dalrock’s rules of gender relations, all forms of “dating” are out. Women are to remain in their father’s care, living at home, until the right Godly man comes along and asks her father to marry her, notice I said ask HER FATHER because women have no rights to choose who they want to spend the rest of their lives with. Once married, authority is transferred from her father to her husband and she is to assume a slave’s position (Dalrock can twist that all he wants, but that’s what women literally become if you follow his eisegesis), she cannot have any power or authority at all, she cannot work outside the home, she cannot teach (so I guess IB is a “heretic witch” in his eyes!), she then must bear her husband kids blah blah blah
The reason I give Dalrock such a hard time, is not so much for his vomit inducing views on gender relations, but because he is a gutless coward, who teaches this garbage to the Christian Community, without the ability for anyone to correct his errors, because his blog is so super moderated, he simply blocks, bans and deletes EVERY comment that is not in accordance with him and his deluded worshipers view points. Instead, Dalrock would rather hide like the coward he is, free from any censure or critique while he vomits up his hatred of women 24/7
I’m trying my best to not actually hate Dalrock because hate is not productive in my following Christ, but I really do detest that pathetic excuse of a man
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The Night Wind said:
Here’s a link worth checking out, written by one the top leaders in Islam on the subject of women’s rights http://english.khamenei.ir/Opinions/OpinionWomen You can see that they aren’t nearly as extreme as either Dalrock or even Wilson.
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necron48 said:
@The Night Wind
Thank you for that link, it confirmed in me what I already expected: that Dalrock’s misogyny is 1000 times worse than extremist Islam
The only reason that piece of shit gets away with such hatred towards women is he very cleverly super moderates his blog so that no comments gets through UNLESS it endorses his foul misogyny
Dalrock is such a gutless coward that he allows no room for his views to get challenged, which to me marks him as a cult leader pushing a very dangerous brand of super patriarchy
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John Branyan said:
Can you give a specific example of Dalrock’s hateful views? It won’t be moderated here.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I’ve blogged a few dozen dalrock posts detailing out the problem with specifics around particular posts. In a more general sense you can see his hatred towards women in the words he uses, “sluts, whores, gold diggers, alpha widows, and jezebels.” You can also see it in the call and response that goes on among his comments section. Dalrock calls men to hatred and bitterness towards women and the men respond by expressing and celebrating their bitterness and hatred towards various women.
And as a Christian, whenever someone needs to suppliment the bible with another ideology, be it new age stuff, witchcraft,or the red pill, there’s always going to be huge problem. There is huge problem with what dalrock is selling, in part because he tries to lend biblical credence to red pill ideology. Red pill ideology actually collapses in the light of scripture, but many men don’t realize that because the red pill makes them feel powerful and self righteous about their own issues. The red pill is actually much like feminism, just with the genders reversed.
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John Branyan said:
It is wrong to call men to hatred and bitterness. It is my duty as a Christian brother to admonish Dalrock for doing so. I will need to refer him to his own words. That’s why I keep asking for a specific example of his call for hatred.
For instance, do you have a quote from Dalrock where he refers to a specific woman as a “piece of shit”? That would be something I would reprimand him for doing.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Actually it is wrong to not be able to simply recognize hatred and bitterness when we see it, John. I’m not going to comb through vile red pill posts and comments until I finally find something that meets your criteria for “hatred.” What you are doing is a bit like walking into a den of white supremists and claiming there’s no racism here because all they’re doing is stating that black folks have a lower IQ, are genetically unable to govern themselves, and likely descended from either monkeys or Cain. But you know, they actually love black folks there, would never actually call them “pieces of shit,” and we’re really offended by all the alleged false accusations of racism.
But speaking of rebukes John, I’ll just add you to my list of blind pharisee who so often seem unable to see the forest for all the trees.
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John Branyan said:
Okay! I apologize!
I’ll take your word for it!
Dalrock is a rotten piece of shit.
Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth.
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necron48 said:
@John Branyan
I refer you to IB22’s comment where she replied to you as THE best answer to your query in regards to Dalrock’s hatred towards women
When you see a person who allows ALL his followers and commentators refer to women as sluts, whores, gold diggers and Jezebels and he NEVER REBUKES them or pulls them up on their language, you are looking at definitive proof that he himself agrees with such dispicable slurs
Also I’m with IB in not willing to troll through thousands and thousands of red pill blogs that are devoted to putting women down in order to find 1 particular phrase that proves his hatred, you will just have to take our word for it
Dalrock spends 24/7 writing blogs that continuously runs women down, and finding fault with everything they do…..not once has he ever written a positive article on women NOT ONCE , that right there should tell you what kind of man you’re dealing with: a vicious, sexist, misogynistic coward who hates women but who disguises it with a veneer of Christianese
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Mel Wild said:
“The only thing that saves me in the midst of all this turbulence is a keen awareness that that is exactly why Jesus came, to deconstruct our very faith, to challenge our lies and deceptions, to launch a full on rebellion against the religious leadership of His day, the very same leadership that eventually helped send Him to the cross.”
Exactly, IB. Amen. I know almost nothing about Dalrock or the Red Pill’er’s. I don’t read them but I do know that people acting on bad theology is the cannon fodder for almost every argument against Christianity. It’s kind of hard to hate women (or anyone else) and follow Christ. One must leave Christ and become religious instead.
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insanitybytes22 said:
It’s so ironic, Mel, the Lord did a huge work in me around hatred. We simply cannot follow Christ and be hating on people at the same time, and I get it, it isn’t so easy to let go of that mindset and embrace the grace, extend forgiveness.
So I am really surprised to now find myself in the midst of the Christian world where there is apparently still great debate over our alleged “right” to be hating on people.
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The Night Wind said:
Here’s the answer that Wilson couldn’t come up with, from the Catechism’s teachings on the 6th Commandment:
(2334) “In creating men ‘male and female,’ God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity. Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God.”
(2335) Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. (2336) Jesus came to restore creation to the purity of its origins.”
What we can infer from this that teaching Gender Supremacy is not in accordance with the teachings of Christ. Feminism, RedPill/Game, and Rainbow-Anarchism are antithetical to Christian positions.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen.
Here is another sticky wicket that is sure to get me into even bigger trouble than usual, but I notice something that tends to go along with this kind of thinking, their personal perceptions of Mary, and not just the usual protestant Catholic schism either. I mean things like, “Mary was just the flawed vessel that gave birth to the human part of Jesus and was not highly favored at all.” Like even my little protestant heart just recoiled in horror hearing those words. She was indeed highly favored, it says so in the bible.
And right on schedule, although much more delicately worded, Pastor Wilson recently proceeded to write, “So then, Mary is the mother of the one who is God.” He made a special effort to clarify but she is mother only, “as regards His manhood.” He wanted it well known that there was nothing Holy, Divine, or Deity like anywhere near Mary. But that is such an extreme view, even within protestant beliefs, because most of us all know Someone Holy and Divine did indeed make Himself very small and curl up within her. So Catholic or protestant, Mary was still “Holy within” because Someone Holy within was within her.
And if you’re feeling the need to constantly try to knock Mary down a peg of two, the very Mother of Jesus, the epitome of perfect womanhood, of perfect motherhood, then something is certainly awry in your own soul and your feelings towards women.
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