Job is one of my favorite books in the bible. Recently I found myself somewhat amused by the words “though he slay me,” a very bad thing indeed, right? Except if you know the Lord very well and trust in His goodness, “though he slay me” becomes more like, “Oh yes, please do!” By all means, consume me, there are always such wonderful treasures to be found there.
For some reason that verse has been stuck in my head as, “Though He slay me and I have NO hope, I will argue my case before Him.” That resonates with me, that speaks my language, that captures the essence of the intended meaning.
So naturally someone pops up and cheerfully quotes “Though He slay me all my hope and trust is in Him,” so it’s all good. “So it’s all good” was simply the cheerful essence of those words. I am chuckling, there are far worse things in the world then Christians trying to cheer one another up and to be encouraging, so this is not a complaint at all.
It is just that sometimes the beauty of words is actually in their despair and hopelessness, their angst, misery and woe. “I have no hope” is somewhat honest and also speaks to God’s authority and to His power. Job is saying, I have no hope of winning this argument, but I’ll argue my case anyway.
My memory can fail me and sometimes the Lord can put things on my heart that align with scripture, but they are tailored for me personally, or the parts I need to hear at the time are really highlighted. So I went and checked the bible and lo and behold my faithful KJV says, “though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.”
Well that’s simply all wrong!
And indeed, it does appear as if there really is some debate as to how those words should be translated and how best to convey the deeper meaning behind them. Each translation words it differently, some actually siding with me, “I have no hope.” Whew, I am not alone here!
And then with utterly perfect synchronicity up pops this quite timely article, “Job’s Most Beloved Verse May Be Different Than You Think.”
Wow! Well now, there you go. Right on time. Everything you ever wanted to know about those words. The guy is quite right too, I’ve poured over several translations and footnotes.
So, why did this all matter to me? Well, I felt uncomfortable about the way we are missing the power and authority of God there and placing too much responsibility on ourselves and our own “faith” or “trust.” Job is like, losing everything and suffering boils that the dogs are licking on. One does not simply go, “just have more faith, Job.” Or perhaps, “it’s all good Job, just be more accepting about your lot in life. Try practicing some gratitude.” It’s easy to have hope when there is “hope.” The profound message behind Job’s words is that, even completely devoid of all hope, I press on. The message is also, I protest this unfairness. I’ll argue my case before God Himself. Job is complaining vehemently!
Why? Because this isn’t the God he knows and nothing is making any sense! It’s a subtle point here, but Job’s knowledge of who God is and His confidence in his own ability to discern and test the spirits, leads him to reject what his foolish friends have told him, reject the obvious and apparent nature of his circumstances, and to simply lean into the Lord. God can kill me, but He is still good. Though he slay me, though I have no hope..….I will still make my case before Him.
That fits in well with, “the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord.”
If you know the story, Job is right to launch his complaint, to question even God Himself, because this is not God doing these things to Job, it is actually satan. While God may well be sovereign over the whole tale, God is not the one attacking Job. Imagine if Job had just said, Well, I guess I just need to surrender all. Accept that “it just is what it is.” Apparently God hates me. Oh well. Cue the Eeyore music….
So a cheerful disposition of, “it’s all good ” can really be a delicate matter. Recently I wrote about resignation, acceptance, some Christian issues around not complaining, which I was objecting too.
Let me double down on that objection now. Job is actually right to observe that this is not the nature of the God he knows, and to complain and protest about his circumstances. While God may well come out of the whirlwind and set Job straight, He also restores all that was lost or stolen, ten fold over. So all in good fun here, but I think we can assume that Job was doing something right.
He was complaining, not in the mindless way one might complain about worship music and the thermostat, but complaining about what was happening to him and the circumstances he found himself in.
Hey IB, I was appreciating your post all the way through, thinking along your lines about Job, and his knowledge of God being far different than the circumstances he found himself in. Then, I came to the last sentence about Job “not complaining in the mindless way about worship music and the thermostat”, and I almost broke out into a loud laugh. ( Good thing I could hold back at 12:17a.m. Sunday may, with my wife sleeping down the hall). I thought, “ Did IB come to visit us Canadians, and check out our church, and somehow hear a “few” of the “pillars” making their comments. 😀😀.
But then I realized all, or almost all, any fellowships with people attending, will have a few complaints being aired. If our problems are not as severe as Job’s, we are doing not to badly. Job was just impatient with God not getting at things and fixing them, he didn’t complain. A lesson I work at learning.
Thank you IB. Always an interesting, usually a thought provoking read. Sorry I missed some. Trying to get back on track. Was attempting to get caught up, but not doing well at that. 😀. God Bless.
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It’s always a gift to hear from you, George. Happy to see you whenever you can drop by.
I’m laughing too, Canadian Christians, American Christians, probably Christians from all over the world,often seem to all suffer from the same affliction, complaining about worship music and the temp. 🙂
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Thank you IB. You are sweet and kind. 😀
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You’ve probably written about this before but what version of the Bible do you read? I still find it difficult to read the Bible and fully understand the text.
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I like the KJV, but that’s just speaking my language. I think the NASB is pretty accurate too, without all the “thees and thous.” I’m also really liking the Passion Bible. It’s pretty new, but words things in a way I really appreciate.
I know this sounds a bit funny, but no matter the version, let the Holy Spirit read it to you. Like close your eyes and let those sweet words just wash over you. So many of us read like it’s a chore or a technical manual. It’s more like music or poetry or a love letter.
Really funny to me, we don’t even have to understand it all, just take it in, and then later,sometimes years later,suddenly those words come back to you and they really click. Scripture actually tells us it reveals itself, “precept by precept,a little here, a little there.” 🙂
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👍 I’ll look into your suggestions. Thanks for the advice too. I do find it helps if I read the Bible out loud, just like Shakespeare. 😁 But, even then, it’s not perfect. I think I treat the process too clinically. Next time, I’ll try “letting go”. Thanks again.
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Amen. Another great blog. Thanks!
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“Though He slay me” always brings to my mind Shadrach and the boys: “If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (Daniel 3:17-18, emphasis mine). Even if, in spite of His awesome power and sovereign nature, He doesn’t take this cup from me, even if He lets the worst happen, I’m going to stop trusting Him, not going to abandon ship and search for a different god. He is God, and I’m sticking with Him, come Heaven or high water. I am His, and He is mine. We’re in this together and nothing will separate me from His love. That’s what the phrase makes me think of.
Becky
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I’m NOT going to stop trusting Him
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OK, so I read the article (most of it), and I disagree with the guy. Two of the best translations, NASB and ESV (because their translation principle is word for word, so I don’t think they did any “softening”), don’t say what he’s saying. And I think he’s wrong about the context. Look at the following verse, not just the ones before v. 15:
“Though He slay me,
I will hope in Him.
Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.
16 “This also will be my salvation,
For a godless man may not come before His presence.”
Job has to be saying he hopes in God, but he’s still going to complain. And the very fact that he can come into God’s presence was proof of what he’d been saying about his righteousness.
God would not have commended Job at the end as this pastor guy mentioned, if Job didn’t trust God. And this statement is just one place in the book where he expressed his trust. But he also insisted on accusing God of wrong doing and it’s that which he had to repent of in the end.
I don’t think Job expressing his trust in God minimizes his anguish. That’s like saying when he bowed and worshiped after he heard of all his losses, he wasn’t really in anguish. I don’t think so. He was actually a righteous man, full of trust in God. But he sinned by doing what this pastor seems to be advocating–accusing God of wrong doing when we are really, really hurting. Uh, no, and no, God is not in error and it is not right to accuse Him. Ever. No matter how much we hurt. It might be understandable, but it’s not OK and it’s not something we should encourage.
Becky
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One more point. I already mentioned in the first comment, Shadrach and friends and I also made an allusion to Christ in Gethsemane. In other words the principle of trusting God in the face of suffering, impending doom, tragedy, runs all the way through Scripture. So making Job say something else doesn’t make the Bible say something else.
Becky
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I think this is a fine point to make, a very subtle difference that is kind of hard to explain, but is it our faith that justifies us? Our trust in God? Is Job rewarded because Job has “hope?” Does Job’s behavior in any way affect God’s character? I think not. Job could have just totally despaired, lost all his hope, and that would not change who God is. It is not Job’s effort or Job’s “hope” that saves him. Job is not really just being commended for his endurance under suffering.
Here’s another subtle point that I think we sometimes miss. You said, “But he sinned by doing what this pastor seems to be advocating–accusing God of wrong doing when we are really, really hurting. Uh, no, and no, God is not in error and it is not right to accuse Him. Ever. No matter how much we hurt.”
But God is not the one who is hurting Job. Satan is. Would it have been better for Job to just accept what satan was doing to him or worse, assume such vile treatment was actually coming from God Himself? If what is happening to you is evil and God is sovereign, either the evil has to become “good” or else you have to question God.
Here’s something else I think we sometimes miss, questioning or accusing God in no way threatens His authority. While reverence and respect are good things, sometimes I think we act as if God is going to be offended by the challenge, or wrathful because we have questioned Him.
And is Job really the sinner in this tale? I think that’s something we really have to explore some more, because that is exactly what Job’s friends are trying to say to him and God is not pleased with them at all. They don’t just have to repent,Job has to intercede for them and they have to make a sacrifice. So why is it that our modern eyes so often see Job as a sinner who’s sin is allegedly in failing to trust God? Failing to be a good enough Christian? God actually tells us Job is “blameless and upright” and the story says, “in all this Job did not sin.” So why then does this idea always persist that Job sinned?
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//assume such vile treatment was actually coming from God Himself?// That’s exactly what Job was doing. Questioning God doesn’t threaten Him but it hurts us. And yes, Job did sin which is why he repented in the end. But God didn’t allow his suffering because he sinned. In fact it’s very clear. In the first chapter it says in all this Job did not sin. But there in the end, he’s repenting. So that means, somewhere in between he did sin. And God said it. I think you quoted it. He said, should you accuse Me? The thing is, if Job had said, No God is not cruel or unkind, so these horrible things can’t be from Him. Then he would possibly have come to Satan’s role. A bit controversial here, but I think God told him in the end. His discussion of Leviathan is a perfect description of a dragon, which is what Revelation calls Satan. But that part is debatable. Job sinning, I don’t think, is.
To answer your first question, no faith, trust, depending on God are not works of ours. James makes that clear in his book because he puts the two in opposition. If you have faith with no works, your faith is useless. So faith and works can’t be synonymous.
I appreciate the thoughtful dialogue, IB!
Becky
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I enjoy these kind of discussions very much Becky, so you have inspired me to write a post and solicit some opinions from others. I added, “did Job sin” to my list of great theological debates.
Job does repent, but I think that is repentance over his sin nature, his state of being next to a Holy God, rather then a sin of error individually perpetrated. Job’s friends say he’s sinned, Job says he’s repenting, but God’s words must trump all of theirs? As you know, the tale begins with “Job was blameless” and “in all this he did not sin.”
I’m always curious about cultural sayings, like “the sins of Job” or “the patience of Job.” Some people have suggested that Job’s troubles really only lasted a few weeks,but we tend to always perceive Job as long suffering and patient. Also,a sinner contrary to several references in those passages that seem to say the precise opposite.
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Ib, I love this kind of discussion, too. I think that’s why I stay in that FB atheist/theist group. But back to Job.
I don’t think Job’s suffering was momentary or light. He lost all his children, for goodness sake. How long does that take to recover from??? I’ve often wondered when he had a new family, well, two things: were these also children of the wife we know of (I assume so) and did their presence in his life “make up” for the loss of those first kids? (I don’t think so. Not in the sense that he didn’t have those he loved with him and he missed them. But that’s just my assumption).
I do think the beginning of Job’s story is clear. God declared to Satan Job’s righteousness; Satan afflicted Job; Job responded by leaning in to God: “Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped.” (1:20) That first chapter concludes, “Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.” Key words—nor did he blame God.
But as he sat in his misery, enduring further affliction from Satan, listening to his friends’ false accusations, he changed. He did blame God. He definitely declared God’s sovereignty, which his friends missed. They thought health and wealth were in their hands, that God simply had to “perform” according to how Man behaved. Job said, no. He’s God. He can do what He wishes. But he turned a corner in chapter 10 when he started saying, essentially, God can do what He wants, but what He’s doing to me isn’t right: “‘Is it right for You indeed to oppress, / To reject the labor of Your hands, / And to look favorably on the schemes of the wicked?” (v. 3)
He moves from there to saying it would have been better if he’d died before he was born, “carried from womb to tomb” (v 19). Basically he’s saying God made a mistake in bringing him to life.
The next error he makes is saying that his life would have rest, would have hope, if God would just leave him alone. He doesn’t realize that God did remove His hand of protection, which allowed Satan to bring about Job’s suffering. Then in chapter 19 he states it plainly: “Know then that God has wronged me” (v 6a)
In chap. 27 he again brings this accusation: “As God lives who has taken away my right …” (v 2a). He sort of doubles down in chapter 29 when he says, “You have become cruel to me; / With the might of Your hand You persecute me.” (v 21).
When the LORD joins the conversation, he says to Job, “Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves God answer it” (v 2). Clearly He understood Job to be accusing Him of wrong. Then a few verses later He says, “Will you really annul My judgment? / Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?” Condemn God. Job was in fact condemning God.
God goes on to show His power and, I think, Satan’s role in all that happened (chap 41). After all that Job says, “Therefore I retract/ And I repent in dust and ashes” (41:6). He did have something of which to repent.
The big difference between Job and the friends was that Job understood God to be sovereign whereas they believed Man determined his own fate based on his own righteousness.
But that Job was right, doesn’t give him an OK to accuse God of wrong doing.
And that’s really why I object to the kinds of things that pastor wrote in that article. I think it encourages the same kinds of accusations against God.
OK, I’ll look forward to reading your post, IB. 🙂
Becky
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That’s really good, Becky! I think we’re in complete agreement about most of it.
This part still doesn’t quite sit quite right with me, “But that Job was right, doesn’t give him an OK to accuse God of wrong doing.”
You are in good company, I think many would agree with you. I just get the distinct impression that God wanted Job to challenge Him, that God is waiting in the whirlwind for Job to do just that.
Our sense of reverence and respect is offended, our delicate sensibilities want to rush to protect God Himself from false accusation. And perhaps we have fear there too, because what if the accusations against God were actually true?
I’ve called this the “Al Capone defense” a few times because atheists are often quick to assign negative characteristics to God, in order to justify their non belief. The problem being, even if God were Al Capone, that does not now logically render Him non existent. Nor does it remove His sovereignty or His authority.
False accusations are a hot bed issue in the culture right now and I think that is part of what colors our perception of Job. I’m hearing all sorts of crazy stuff, “Job was a liar, Job bore false witness against God Himself, Job was an accuser, everybody died because Job sinned.” That is a part of what I am reacting to.
I actually don’t “want” people to accuse God, and I’ve read some of the stuff that seems to be encouraging people to do just that, to express their anger towards God. I much prefer the wording, “confess” your anger towards God, if that is really what is in your heart. I think the tale of Job reaffirms that, and even the tale of Jonah. God is not punishing these men for accusing Him or challenging Him,or questioning His wisdom in sending a worm to eat his shade. If fact, God asks “Jonah, are you angry?”
And this all relates to a much larger question, why are we equating “being angry” with hatred and rejection? Why are we saying that it is un Christian to complain and protest? And why are we perceiving an “accusation” as if it were automatically truth, a fact? An accusation is like, to present your case, which is what Job does. Then the case is examined and investigated. The accusation itself is not sinful, it is not evil.
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Yes, IB, I think we are very much in agreement except for this one point. (And I’ll say again, I really appreciate your willingness to wrestle with me concerning these issues. I think this alone brings the lie to what atheists say, that Christians just accept whatever we’ve been taught. I actually started with the question, why did Job repent? Anyway, back to our discussion).
You said, “even if God were Al Capone, that does not now logically render Him non existent. Nor does it remove His sovereignty or His authority.” But it does make a statement about His holiness and goodness and righteousness. I believe that’s why God responded to Job by saying, Are you willing to hang onto the idea that you’re righteous by saying I’m not? It really was a pride issue there, which is at the basis of all sin, I believe.
I don’t think we should condone, encourage, or gloss over someone rejecting some aspect of God’s character. But for those who despise God’s righteousness or holiness for a time, they can repent just like Job did when they come to the point of realization that the God of the universe does only right.
I wouldn’t put Jonah in the same category as Job except for his pride. He wanted what made him comfortable, so he liked what God caused there. He did not like what made him uncomfortable—the wind God caused and the forgiveness He offered to Job’s enemies. It was never OK for Jonah to complain about what God did. Understandable, sure. But something that should bring him to his knees in repentance. And not something we should say, Go and do thou likewise.
I guess I see the accusation as unfaithful. God has said He’s good, but I say, He’s done wrong in this instance or that. In essence I’m doing what Satan did in the garden—calling God a liar, saying that He isn’t who He’s revealed Himself to be. In the end, I think God bringing the issue to Job’s attention is the clincher: ” ‘Will you really annul My judgment? / Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?’ ” That’s a rhetorical question, kind of. Job would have “annulled God’s judgment” if he could. And He did condemn God of wrongdoing. God wasn’t asking for information here. He was showing Job what he was actually doing—accusing the One who was in charge of all the stuff of creation, things which Job had no knowledge of. So how could the “small one” turn around and say to the infinite, all knowing, all powerful One, I know better than You?
And at that Job repented. I think it’s evident that he realized anew who God is. He even said in essence, I thought I knew, but now I’ve seen Him.
And we, because of Jesus, because of the Holy Spirit, because of Scripture have even more reason to say, I do know God, and He’s not like that—He’s not cruel, He’s not persecuting us. He’s actually sacrificial, loving, kind, merciful, working all things for our good.
It’s not right to call our good God, evil.
Becky
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Great discussion!
Did Job sin? This is a puzzle, because God is honoring Job by allowing Satan to test him.
Job is correct in observing that God is behind his suffering. What he doesn’t understand — because it sure does not feel like it — is that God honored him by allowing Satan to test him. We all struggle with that.
What Job did not understand the apostles had to learn. To demonstrate our faith, we must suffer. When the apostles were abused and martyred, they understood they were being tested and even joyed in it. Job was confused, and his example is still the one we most identify with. Most of our suffering seems so inglorious. How does suffering from boils honor God. Yet it did and still does.
When he suffered, Job still revered God, but he had the audacity to self righteously demand an explanation from God. We can ask. We can complain, but suggesting God is being unjust is a sin. Hence God honored Job with a lesson in humility. Honored? Yes. God honored Job with this lesson because He knew Job would take it to heart.
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That’s a really great answer,Tom. I see that too, God is honoring Job.
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@IB
Must admit I owe that answer to John Wesley and his “Notes on the Bible”.
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The irrefutable fact remains, that the most high ALLOWED Satan to make Job’s life a living hell simply to prove a point. He is a scary Father; grace and love notwithstanding.
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Partnering, He is a powerful Father, which is different from what would would traditionally label “scary.” A bunch of big guys with guns are not “scary,” unless of course, they are not your big guys.
I don’t think God allowed satan to mess with Job, “simply to make a point.” I truly believe God is good and those moments of testing are designed to show us who we are, what we are made of. What we are made of when we are in the Lord, is actually Him. And He is powerful.
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Amen-Amein and Thanks so very much Sister in Christ-Messiah Jesus-Yeshua!! ❤ GOD Bless You and Your Family and Friends!!
GOD BLESS ALL my Sisters and Brothers in Christ Jesus-Yeshua and Your Families and Friends!!
I am Pro-Israel-Yisrael / Pro-Christian and Jewish People who STAND with the Holy Land of Israel-Yisrael and our Judeo-Christian Nation United States of America / Pro-Zionism / PRO-LIFE / PRO-LIFE!!
Our ONE True GOD’S LOVE 💕💜 is ETERNAL THROUGH HIS SON Christ-MESSIAH Jesus-Yeshua for Today and Everyday Forevermore!!
I Love you all Everyone through Christ-MESSIAH Jesus-Yeshua, because HE LOVED 💜💕 EVERYONE FIRST!!
Love 💕 Always and Shalom ( Peace ), YSIC \o/
Kristi Ann
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I always enjoy your insights on the Book of Job!
I don’t know if the “It’s all good” approach necessarily means total resignation. The complaints Job makes to God, aren’t really for the benefit of God to hear and judge. They are to demonstrate to Job the depth of his own faith. The worse it got, the closer he drew to God. The extreme physical hardships challenged him spiritually, but he drew knowledge and wisdom from these experiences.
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