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blogging, insanitybytes22, life, marriage, opinion, submission
I’ve written numerous posts on submission, more than I can even link to:
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/when-submit-feels-like-a-dirty-word/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/sumitting-to-rabbit-holes/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2017/03/13/submission-works/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/biblical-submission-is-not-passivity/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/submission/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/submission-does-not-cause-abuse/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/question-authority/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/when-your-husband-is-just-plumb-wrong/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2016/11/30/christian-women-dont-always-submit/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/submit-one-to-another/
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/duck-duck-goose/
I happen to really enjoy writing, talking, and speaking about submission, not just in marriage but in all areas of our lives, impacting both men and women. I often say the root of what ails us in any given situation is always going to be a problem with submission. Either we are not submitting to the Lord enough, not submitting to the truth enough, not submitting to love enough, or not submitting to one another enough.
As you can imagine this is not a real popular idea, it doesn’t sell very well. We’re living in a world where everyone else always needs to change, including the very nature of the world itself. We’ll demand the world conform to our needs long before we think to consider whether or not there is something within us ourselves that needs to change.
Ironic, because if we ever all got together and decided to let the Lord change us, the world would look a whole lot different than it does right now. In fact, that’s how you go about changing the world, by transforming one heart at a time, starting with our own.
It’s such a tragedy to me that submission has somehow been linked to inferiority, that it is so often misused as a way to deflect responsibility and assign blame. Women unfortunately, are frequent targets. It’s not scripture that gets it wrong, but there sure are a lot of people who get scripture wrong.
Submission is actually simply yielding to and receiving love. You wrap it in shame, fear, legalism, or mandates, and you’ve lost the whole argument. You’ve lost the argument with me, a fan of submission, albeit a cranky and impatient one.
Just saying.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Submission has got a nasty rap since Feminism walked in. Prior to the 1970s, women didn’t blink to tell their husbands they would obey them when they walked up the aisle. And most of them gave it their best effort. But the liberals in this country wanted to convince women otherwise so that we now have 4-5 generations of women separated from that who have been repeatedly indoctrinated with the idea that doing things God’s way is wrong, or that submission doesn’t mean what it means. There are also 4-5 generation of men removed from that, who say, wait a minute, weren’t women told to get in the kitchen and make us all sandwiches while we conquer the world for our glory? Men who would rather throw a woman over their shoulder, smack her on the rump and call that love and affection. We’ve lost the sense of its meaning, because people don’t practice it in a NORMAL sense anymore. I think submission makes the home happier, but it has to be done with love and joy as the outcome.
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Greetings IB,
Thought you might like this link: https://www.heartandmouth.org/2017/09/20/head-christ-god-ess-complementarianism-history-interpretation/
As a divorced man, I don’t feel like my opinion has much weight regarding this issue, or the discussion over at Mablog – but my two cents on the issues at hand is that society is so caught up with a spirit of comparison (singing and dancing contests, fantasy football, celebrity feuds) that it has invaded the home and the marriage relationship as well. Philippians 2:3-4 seems to capture your idea about not submitting enough.
When I think of the word submission, and its synonym surrender; my experience is that those things do not come willingly or easily. While in the military, the display of force continues to escalate until the enemy surrenders. As one who fights addictive behaviors, surrender didn’t come for me until my pain overcame my fears.
It’s a tremendous grace that we broken humans would surrender/submit to Jesus at all. And then to ask us to do it towards each other – only God can grant that. Be Blessed and Go Under the Mercy! jfm
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I agree… Submission is not generally received well, followed by surrender. And yet surrender, as well, reaps great benefits. God’s ways are completely opposite (I like to say ‘inside out and upside down’) from what the natural man thinks… Thus, all the more, we need to renew our minds in the word (Rom. 12:1-2). Thank your for this awesome post!!! 👍🏻👍🏻
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Deuteronomy 19
15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse someone of a crime, 17 the two people involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the Lord before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you.
Memi, I thought I would talk with you over here, instead of over there. Over there you said:
“Just the same, so few wives are ever going to get past that sense of betrayal and distrust that stems from your attempts to get both sides of the story, per Proverbs 18:17 apparently.” Memi
As you know real abuse is a serious problem, a sin, and it’s so bad the human beings even have it down as a crime.
Doug Wilson understands this as well as you do:
“Now before getting into what we see, I wanted qualify something first. I want you to know and understand that nothing said here would apply to a woman who was married to a genuine tyrant. I have often wished that more women would be willing to be Abigails in dealing with their Nabals, and those situations are scarcely rare. I know that there are marriages where the husbands are thugs and bullies, and that their wives need to learn how to bring things to a head. I know of such situations at first hand. When that happens, and it happens too often, I am firmly in the corner of the wife who is the victim. Many women need to learn to be an Abigail.” Doug Wilson
Memi, when there is a dispute, especially about sins and crimes, corroborating witness and evidence is required by both God and man. It is not a betrayal of anyone’s trust, to check out their story, in fact, if real crimes and sins have been committed, there is not a better way to support someone’s trust than to discover corroborating witness of their complaint.
Memi, I don’t think that you are against Word grounded Godly due process, but I can see how some would think that you are, via some of your statements that are not as complete as I suspect they could be.
Please think and pray about your understanding of the above, and if it could be deeper than it is right now.
One of the reasons I like talking to you is that I suspect you have a deeper understanding of some things than I do.
The only way to glean any wisdom from you, is to keep talking with you about such things.
I am OK with wacking Hornet’s nests, I am not OK with wacking Bee hives, on this issue, you may be wacking the latter more than you think!
Thanks and Salt, A dad.
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Adad,the woman’s story was that she was unhappy and vaguely discontented. There is absolutely no need to call for witnesses or to get her husband to verify if that is true or not. The lack of compassion, the outright hatred, the total lack of respect, the unwillingness to perceive her as an actual human being made in the image of God, has made me feel sick to my stomach.
Ironically my husband was right, if I continue to read that stuff I will soon come to hate the Body of Christ and the men who use the Lord’s word to oppress women, falsely believing they elevate themselves.
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“You mentioned in the letter than Jon knew you were writing, and that he was grateful for it. Your letter contained a pretty thorough expression of your unhappiness in your marriage, and since Jon was in town for his conference last week, I took the opportunity to have lunch with him and get his take on everything. You asked us to tell you what we see, and I am glad we can answer that having heard from both of you. But given the nature of what I am going to say here, I am just sending this letter to you and not to Jon. If you would like to, you may share it with him. I would encourage that, but wanted to write to you privately first.” Doug Wilson
You know Memi, the above fictional circumstance sounds pretty fair to me. The wife wrote Wilson, as the husband and wife were both aware. I would be inclined to think that the wife was expecting Wilson to meet with the husband, and possiblby even admonish the husband. Wilson heard the husbands “take on everything” which would be more than just the wife.
Wilson heard from both sides, wrote the wife back, and left it to the wife, if she wanted to share Wilson’s view on what he gathered. The wife is in control when the letter ends.
You know Memi, I could easily be the husband guy in the fictional letter. And look what happened in my situation. The church (Grace Chapel of Lexington Ma, and their “ministry” “Hagar’s Sisters”), did not “show me my sin” or accuse me of “abuse” to my face, as Jesus required. Hagar’s Sisters just went to court, lied about me in a false law suit, and had their perjurious law suit thrown out. If I have anything to do with it, they will still be prosecuted for affidavit perjury.
I think my experience made you “sick to your stomach” when you first understood it.
The situation in Wilson’s fictional letter is much more benign.
Anyway Memi, hang in there and don’t give up. I do think you are reading too much personal experience into Wilson’s post.
Hope you feel better soon! Amen.
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“Do you have any idea what centurions used to do to disobedient soldiers?”
Feel free to rationalize and justify that piece of marital advice from your friends, Adad.
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“In fact, that’s how you go about changing the world, by transforming one heart at a time, starting with our own.” Love this! Yes, I’m a bit turned off by submission because of how I’ve seen it used and abused, but I know it can be a lovely thing. As a fairly newlywed (a year next Sunday) I hope I can redefine submission with my life in a way that makes my husband feel cherished and honors the Lord.
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““Do you have any idea what centurions used to do to disobedient soldiers?” Oscar
Feel free to rationalize and justify that piece of marital advice from your friends, Adad.” Memi
“Coming from a military family, yes, I do. But anyway, here is what the centurion said he had to do:
Matthew 8:
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
What does God do with disobedient children?
So Far, I myself have not been drawn and quartered! ; – )” A dad.
Gosh Memi, I did not rationalize Oscar’s missed point. Both the centurion and Jesus were saying the best of obedience and submission is “great faith” not great punishment, and both the centurion and Jesus understand that they are both under authority. (Although if we do not obey God, we will die in our sin eternally, which is much rougher than military punishment)
I am under God’s authority Memi. That is one of the reasons that I always treat you with respect, even in disagreement.
One thing you should keep in mind about guys Memi, is that they sometimes bluster a lot, but their actions, or lack thereof, are not as rough as their words. ; – )
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Submission is certainly very poorly understood!!
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Indeed it is!
Welcome back you’ve been missed. 🙂
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I so had to take a break for my mental health and do some refocusing. I was just feeling drained on too many levels. You have been missed right back! So much catching up to do, but I will get there. You (and so many others around here) have remained in my thoughts and prayers this whole time. Praying He has been gracious to you. 😃
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Whoah you have written quite a bit on this topic
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