Actually, given the condition of some of His followers, I’m rather surprised so many manage to hang on to faith at all. Harsh, but it’s the truth. There are some truly appalling Christians walking the planet, preaching outright hatred, distorting scriptures, projecting their own wounding onto others.
In fact, given what I’ve now seen, I’d have to say that the fact that Christianity has survived at all is a rather miraculous thing, and certainly evidence that God is leading and not man. Left to man alone, I doubt we’d have anything resembling the body of Christ left in the world at this point.
Also, I feel rather blessed to have grown up outside the church, away from any form of established religion at all. It’s actually kind of frightening to imagine what would have become of me if I didn’t first have an established relationship with Christ and later some positive relationships with some genuine Christians. I have the ability to discern where somebody’s own self ends and Christ’s begins. I can feel His presence, I know Him, and I know where He is not.
If my faith, my perception of Christ, came from those preaching outright hatred, ostracizing, bullying, racism, blaming women for all the sins of mankind, calling children retards and freaks, mocking and ridiculing people who commit suicide, calling others human trash, reveling in self righteousness and mockery of human suffering…..good grief it’s enough to make me want to throw up, if that was what I thought Christ was all about, I would truly be adrift. I cannot even imagine how anyone actually in a relationship with Christ could ever engage in such behavior.
When you know Him, once you really embrace the love and mercy to be found there, it’s actually painful to contemplate misrepresenting Him. Honest to goodness, every impatient word, every failure to empathize with another, every hostile thought in traffic, actually hurts. It is not easy, but if you love Christ, you have to love His people too. His people, in case no one noticed, are rather imperfect.
So, to those who have left religion because of the behavior of other Christians, I get it. I really do. If that is how one comes to perceive Christ, the only wise thing to do would be to flee in the other direction. For those who indulge and support such behavior, ahhh, yuck. Love sometimes requires you to speak up and if you don’t, but instead encourage such hatred in Christ’s name, there’s going to be a price to pay.
Somebody wise pointed out to me that either the blood of the Lamb is enough to wash all that ugly away, or it isn’t. It is. It is enough, it is more than enough, it is an abundant well of Grace, able to cover all the sins of mankind, all of the sins of the church, even all of the hateful misrepresentations of His name.
******Repost from Jan 2015
See, there's this thing called biology... 
This post laid bare most of the reasons I gave up on all organized religion. I grew up in a very strict protestant church and I saw questionable behavior on the part of some of my religion’s followers that was never called out by other believers. I couldn’t figure out why a believer would condone, and even honor, people with such behavior. Further, I couldn’t figure out why God put up with horrible behavior from the followers and why many of those most blessed were also the least moral individuals. In short, at that point I came to believe that God doesn’t hand out rewards, or punishments, in this life based on how moral or immoral a person acted. I saw good people hurting and evil people prospering, even in the church. I finally left once I became convinced God simply doesn’t care. Even the Bible stated ‘God is no respecter of men’ and ‘God causes the rains to fall on the just and unjust alike.’
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Thanks for your comment.
“I saw questionable behavior on the part of some of my religion’s followers that was never called out by other believers.” That is really a tough one for me, too.
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Interesting. Here you are berating the church and (rightly) dumping on organised religion while other Christians, like the link below extol the virtues of attendance and castigate those ( christians) who are ”too lazy” to attend.
Is it any wonder the Christian religion is so fractious? Its demise is likely only a matter of time.
As Agent Smith remarked in the Matrix. ”That is the sound of inevitability.”
http://truthinpalmyra.wordpress.com/category/church/
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Hey Ark…thanks for the link. Very kind of ya.
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Pleasure.
The more people understand religion the sooner people will leave it.
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There is a huge difference between being involved in organised religion and having a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. The former may be very frustrating but the latter is very fulfilling. Religion doesn’t save anyone, Jesus Christ does.
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From what does the biblical character Jesus the Nazarene save people? And also, exactly how is this achieved?
Can you please be specific on both points, thanks.
(Oh, and I’d appreciate it if you sis not simply quote scripture, but rather explain properly.)
Once again , thanks.
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Yes, the Biblical Jesus Christ saves people. But He is more than just a man from Nazarene as you said, He is the Son of God.
He saves people when they have complete faith in Him. If you must know, mankind has sinned against God. This sin carries eternal consequence of death, eternal separation from God. But Jesus paid the price of the sin of mankind, such that anyone who puts faith in Him will no longer suffer the eternal penalty of sin, thereby restoring the relationship between such one and God.
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Men in charge of God is like Government in charge of education. It doesn’t work. Both may have good intentions at first, but corruption and failure are sure to follow.
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Everybody’s road is different. I grew up in church and never saw the stuff you describe. Not saying it was all perfect or that I might not have noticed some things but I do think there’s a tendency for people to find what they’re looking for. My wife and I left the church I grew up in over significant doctrinal issues. When we visited the church we now belong to we saw an astonishing thing. A guy got up in front of the congregation, acknowledged offending another member and asked forgiveness. It was clearly from the heart; he had said something careless, it was brought to his attention and he wanted to make it right according to scripture. It was worth more than doctrinal statements, stances on social justice issues or opinions on stained glass or worship styles. These people were trying. The Word mattered. Now I’m an elder at this church so I get to see plenty of ugly. You know, people acting exactly as scripture tells us we act. But I also see God doing glorious things that could never be done with lone rangers. We may not all be in the same boat but we are certainly on the same sea. If you’re aboard a hulk that’s going down the solution is not to jump into the water and drown. That’s what we do when we abandon “organized” religion. Find a better boat; if you don’t believe God has the right “boat” for you then you don’t believe in a useful God.
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I’m so glad to know you’ve found a church with people who genuinely care. I’ve found a couple of churches like that, too. I really believe Christians are called to be in a church of some sort, no matter what it takes to find one.
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“We may not all be in the same boat but we are certainly on the same sea. If you’re aboard a hulk that’s going down the solution is not to jump into the water and drown. That’s what we do when we abandon “organized” religion. Find a better boat; if you don’t believe God has the right “boat” for you then you don’t believe in a useful God.” Fantastic words. Thank you so much.
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I think those of us that hang onto the faith do so because we realized, through all the smoke and mirrors, Who Christ really is. We get our perception of Him directly from the source. Although I’m coming from a rather blessed place to say that – Christians were some of the nicest people I knew growing up, particularly this one girl in my class who had a very pure heart – I remember her parents driving me in their car for a field trip once and they all sang worship songs from their radio – there was such a loving atmosphere there. My parents also weren’t religious and we rarely ever went to church, so there weren’t too many people for me to have a negative impression of Christ. My disillusionment was always with people, plain and simple – people of all stripes. It was only people that ever hurt me and they never did so in the name of religion.
But even when it comes to leaving religion, I believe the real reason – the core of the issue – is because of people – flawed, wounded, prideful people, trying to use a perfect God to justify their behavior. I tremble imagining what it would be like to be in their shoes when they have to stand before God and make an account of their life.
As for the wanting to properly represent Christ part, definitely. You know your faith is genuine when you shudder at the thought of doing something remotely horrible to tarnish His name – to crucify Him twice over.
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Thanks, Ada. Wise words indeed 😉
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Yup… and great way of avoiding personal responsibility and moral autonomy. Yeah, anointed by the Blood of the Lamb… a handy dandy reason for following the right orders, donchaknow, and enjoying the guilt trip!
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It’s hard to explain to non believers, but rather then Christ being a way of avoiding personal responsibility and moral autonomy, He is what motivates a desire for morality in the first place. On this side of the cross there is no condemnation, no guilt trips to “enjoy.”
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He is what motivates a desire for morality in the first place.
If you’re satisfied by this pseudo-answer, then your inquiry has come to an end.
If you’re not satisfied, then a world of earning knowledge awaits…
That’s the real choice here.
I just think you’ve made a very poor choice that also supports those – by accepting the methodology that respects divine authority – who likewise use scripture to supposedly justify doing ‘God’s work’ that really does cause real harm to real people in real life.
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I get what you’re saying, IB. Though it bears to note that tildeb has misconstrued “Blood of the Lamb” out of the written context to criticize Christianity on a seemingly unrelated tangent to the original topic at hand.
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No, MP, the idea of grace is connected with a reduction in moral autonomy. I’ll leave it to you to investigate it further…. should the spirit</i so move you.
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You’re making the claim there is a connection, so the burden of proof falls on you. The spirit does not move me to be investigate what is clearly unsubstantiated and not readily applicable to what IP’s blog post was about. What is the Christian doctrine of grace, and how does it reduce moral autonomy?
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Perhaps reasons are individual. I was raised in a conservative Christian (Catholic) home, and though there were hypocrites and preachy finger pointers, there were also some great people. Like a guy who was non-judgmental, had 6 kids and half were adopted because he and his wife were pro-life.
What lead me to atheism was an almost decade long search to figure out what makes sense. Being taught as a kid that Satan could mess with your mind thru popular movies, music, etc., then questioning as a young man whether this is rational. Being told New Agers are idiots for believing in magik crystals, but also being taught that a wafer becoming the body of Christ is a sensible belief (and walking on water, virgin birth, etc.). Reading the four gospels in parallel (four columns to a page) to assess the claim of biblical inerrancy (I’m a rather methodical, detail oriented person), and so on – that’s how I lost faith.
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I’m sorry you lost faith, but I’m so glad that didn’t come about from running into some rotten Christians.
About kids and popular culture, those movies, music, etc really did get satanic and bizzare as time went by. Today it’s just become a huge celebration of violence, disrespect, and evil, for lack of a better word. Never mind kids, as a grown up there is just so much stuff I want to tune out and avoid because it’s just so awful. So, after all these years I have a lot more respect for those who tried to protect their kids from popular culture.
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@Eldritch
Good for you! Critical thinking and common sense: two marvelous ( under used) human attributes . A rarity among the religious.
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IF you really want the rational truth, I recommend reading some of the older commentaries like from Matthew Henry on things like how the Gospels are totally consistent. Once upon a time I thought I had analyzed my Pentecostal upbringing out of my mind, but then with continued open-minded thinking it became clear that the Bible was truth.
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“Somebody wise pointed out to me that either the blood of the Lamb is enough to wash all that ugly away, or it isn’t. It is. It is enough, it is more than enough, it is an abundant well of Grace, able to cover all the sins of mankind, all of the sins of the church, even all of the hateful misrepresentations of His name.”
AND ALL OF ME!
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I am a little over the hill, but essentially I feel that my faith holds on to me, faith after all isn’t from ourself but Gods gift, and properly rooted in God, faith honours God, follows Him, discerning what His will is means you know the Shepherds voice from the sheeps, the goats and every other beggarly spirit. As for a price to pay, well we are called to take up our cross and follow … Yes the Blood of the Lamb is enough, and it whispers Peace within … I am not saved by the faith of a brother or sister,or by their words or deeds, but solely by that precious blood which whispers peace within…
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Amen to that 😉
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I left religion because it apparently had nothing to do with the life I was living, nor the culture that was shaping me.
And after the Satguru, Lord of the Universe, got deported for income tax evasion I really got pissed off at religion.
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LOL! I’m so glad we have you, Silence. You really have a nice perspective on things.
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I dated a girl, back in the day, who carried a picture of Jesus in her wallet. Claimed to be a Christian.
She was the most self-centered, messed up person I’d ever been with. She treated me absolutely horribly, cheated on me, abused me, took advantage of my rock-bottom self esteem. I won’t go into specifics, but I guarantee her behavior would make your heads spin.
She was one of the reasons I remained an atheist for so many years. Thankfully, through the example of real Christians(including my lovely, patient and long-suffering wife), I came to our Lord. I’m not a great Christian–not even a good one, probably–but I’m trying, and at least I know Whose side I’m on.
I got to thinking about that part of my life, and came to a realization: Christians have the duty to bring others to Christ. If you claim to be a Christian, and your behavior is driving people away from Christ…who are you really working for?
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I hear you, Wraith. I’ve met a couple of those so called Christian women and yes, they can really be appalling. I think you’ve nailed it here, ” Christians have the duty to bring others to Christ.” If your behavior is likely to drive people away, it is not good at all.
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Her first problem was manifest in dating “somebody like you”. God hates this. Go find a nice Christian, will you, one that lives it? You can’t use the behavior of somebody who acts like they don’t believe in God as an excuse to say he doesn’t exist.
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IB
I think much of what you said applies not to just why people leave church, but why they never come in the first place. I can’t really speak to people leaving as I have only ever been part of one congregation.(other than a couple of years as a kid).
I can address some reasons why people find Christians unattractive. The biggest has to do with general demeanor and an unwelcoming attitude. Frankly, it’s hard to find church attractive when people look at you sideways from the moment you walk in the door as if they wonder just why you came in the first place. Hard for people to stay long enough to hear the message if they never want to come back.
For me personally it had to do with another issue. Don’t take this wrong..but the few times I did see fit to actually go into a church building, they were all full of nothing but women. Very few men seemed to be involved, and truth be told, most of the ones I saw seemed like weak pushovers. And, it didn’t seem to be much better out in the world, either. I just really thought Christianity was for ladies.
One day(due to a pretty girl I might add. Thems the rules; if you date a church girl and want to see her on Sunday, you have to go to church LOL), I wandered in a little country church and my life changed forever. In a church, unexpectedly, I was surrounded by men. Tough, hard men who labored for living. Men who loved God with all of their hearts, and loved and protected their families with that same heart. Men who, if not for the fact we were in a Baptist Church, I would have gladly taken to a bar fight with me.
So…my thought is that if we want to keep men in the church, then men have to assume the roles God has appointed them to fill.
Just my thoughts…I hope the beatings don’t begin LOL.
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“So…my thought is that if we want to keep men in the church, then men have to assume the roles God has appointed them to fill.”
LOL, Wally, I’m actually with you there. That is what I want to see, too. It’s actually a rather good system, the way it was designed. Nearly all of the men i speak to around here, that’s their issue too, real or imagined, the church ladies. They don’t want to be in a church completely dominated by women.
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IB…its a HUGE issue. I really thought all Christian men were sissies for years…And I didn’t want to become a sissy. Harsh, but true.
We are so blessed at my church. There are times when men actually outnumber women, if you can believe that.
It’s been shown that if a man in a family attends church, the other members of the family tend to go along more than if just mom goes. Hmm..God sorta knew what He was doing eh?
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God totally knew what He was doing 😉
It is a huge issue Wally, one I have been immersed in for a few years now. It’s counter intuitive or perhaps just counter to what the world tells us, but when you build up the men in a community, it benefits everyone. It is also the fastest way to improve the lives of women, children, the economy, lower crime rates, restore mental health… I could go on and on.
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And can we add to that the abandonment of the family by fathers being the root of 99% of the social ills facing us? Crime, welfare, delinquency..did I miss anything?. But, you know, the culture is heck bent on minimizing the role of men and dads…yet another reason we all need to be in church.
And look, I am so not pointing fingers. I just know from seeing both sides of the fence. I know how things went my first time around and how they are now…and also the fact that Jesus Christ is enabling me to repair some of the damage I did to my first family before I had…guidance so to speak.
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No, we can’t add that (and pretend it’s reasonable) because it’s simply not true, Wally.
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Tildeb..we dont have to pretend it’s reasonable. It is, in fact, very reasonable. Men have abdicated on most of their responsibilities in this world..and the world insin a pit because of it. LOL..you got me wrong, my friend. I’m not looking for any obedience or such…I’m saying we should be sucking it up more, not getting more.
D
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You have a funny view of men.
I have a lot of non religious brothers and not one of us has left his family. I have a lot of non religious friends and fewer than one in ten men have left their family for any reason. Perhaps this is highly unusual. But professionally, where I’m in contact with perhaps a hundred men with children (most married, including three gays – and two lesbian couples with adopted children) fewer than three in ten have separated from their families and, I suspect, the women spouses had as much to do with this as the men. To be clear, I have found that the poorer the family, the greater the rate of family disintegration. This is a well established correlation compared to the religious/non religious proposition. I think blaming men for this is a stretch when responsibility can be easily parceled out much more fairly.
But some mass leaving by men of children – especially by non religious men – in my neck of the woods simply doesn’t bear out what you’re suggesting. And the lack of religion seems to play absolutely no special role when, according to the sense of this post, it should cause a greater – not lesser – disruptive effect. Not happening.
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Tildeb…actually that point has nothing to do with religion, I totally agree. And not matter what you say, the disintegration of the family in our cities has everything to do with poverty and crime. Poverty is caused by disintegration not disaggregation caused by poverty.
And you say there is not one standard Biblical for men..sure there is. We are to love our wives as Jesus loved the church..and gave Himself for it. People use other rules..but that’s really the big one. Southern Baptist? Ha..I can beat that..Im more conservative than a Southern Baptist..we think those guys are liberals LOL.But, no one would come in my home and think anybody was being oppressed. Oppressive submission..that’s wrong and I agree with you 100 percent.
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Actually, the fastest way to reduce poverty is to empower women with equal autonomous legal rights. From this comes all kinds of social benefits… including the raising of boys who as men who don’t feel they deserve privilege and obedience because they were born with testicles. Go figure.
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Tildeb..you realize the Biblical model gives no special privileges, right? Merely special responsibility. Sadly, not everybody follows it, and yes some claim to and do not. So..I’ll give it up that it is vastly abused. Shame on us for that one.
And I stand by my statement. Men staying with their children would eliminate most of the poverty in this land..period end of story. It would also eliminate substantial amounts of crime and juvenile issues. I know..it’s not high falutin social policy…some thing that simply surely can’t work. Well, it does.
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Ah.. the biblical model…come on, Wally.
The Bible OT and NT is full of male privilege. You can’t just throw the idea that there is a single biblical model out there and expect those of us who have read it to nod our heads in agreement. The semantic difference you point out is belied by how so many Christians – especially the institutions – are run almost if not wholly by men telling women what they ought to do, and how they ought to behave and, not surprisingly, almost always in a more submissive role. They are the ones who require your attention to the biblical model you imagine is the right standard but, when you read as much vitriol as I do against such moderate religious voices as, say, Rachel Held Evans or Peter Enns, you quickly discover that contrary views are just more wishful thinking than reflections on reality. Been in a Catholic church lately? Talked to a Southern Baptist? Listen to what Mormons say?
I’m not trying to argue that a lack of male parenting isn’t a problem. It is. But it’s not a magic bullet against poverty and certainly not a fix for many juvenile issues. In comparison, women attaining full equality to men in law does in fact what you imagine more men in the raising of children supplies. And if you want to call gender equality in law to be ‘high falutin’ social policy, then I suggest you try to move beyond the 1950s family TV model you seem to be channeling.
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tildeb-
Your last line…..
You portray the ‘fifties’ as if people were stunted of mind, or second class citizens; a common myopic opinion of folks in America, but take a look at the connections that this short- sightedness is blind to..
Apologies ib for the link, just couldn’t resist.
http://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2013/05/30/379/
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ColorStorm
Great stuff on that post. They weren’t called The Greatest Generation for nothing huh?
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Tkx Wally
Haven’t read that book, but it was a different world. ‘Different’ as in better in many ways.
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Its a good read ColorStorm. My step dad let me read his…Marine from WW II…Guadalcanal campaign.
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I’ll check it out–
Mr. Brokaw has his magic moments. 😉
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I notice you’ve dropped my reference to your misplaced belief in the reality of the TV family portrayed in the 50s. Why don’t you ask women what the 50s were like for them as individuals respected solely for the quality – and equality – of their character and how prevalent this was in comparison to, say, the 80s of 00s?
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I can’t stop reading this, I’ve read it like 5 times now. It’s so true. Thanks for challenging all of us
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Thanks for reading. It really has been a good conversation and I appreciate the responses.
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Well said IB. i also enjoyed Wally’s perspective – although I’m sure that complete nuclear families may be a part of the answer, they are not the silver bullet he advertized.The men in church, though, feels right to me. i don’t belong to a church but I’ve tried. I find that without men, the congregation becomes defensive and folds in on itself. The whole exclusive routine bugs me – phuuuulease, do they really think that their church was picked by God to be right when all others are wrong? I get a whiff of that and I’m gone. The holier than thou congregation.
Hmmm, while writing this, it occurs to me that men tend to move out into the world with the feeling they can handle whatever comes while women tend to be more relationship builders within. It takes both to have a truly interactive community. One or the other won’t do – spiritual health needs both.
Anyway, thanks for the post IB.
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It seems it’s hardest for secular people to get over the fact that people are people. Why are we surprised every time human beings act badly? Atheists bring this out like it’s some kind of revelation.
The Bible’s assessment of man is that we are desperately wicked, that left to our own preferences, we are selfish, self-centered, cruel and cold. It’s the Bible that tells us who we are without flattery. But it’s the Bible that gives us the solution, too!
The uncomfortable truth is that we need to acknowledge that we’re jerks and that we need help to be otherwise with any degree of consistency.
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Good points. It has a lot to do with being unwilling to submit to biological reality and to admit we are truly powerless. People like to believe we’re the ones in control.
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<
@Wally
Yet, according to the Barna Research Group , the rate of divorce (in the US) is significantly higher among …. Conservative Christians., and much higher than atheists and agnostics. (Oh, that was heartwarming to read! )
Interesting to also note: the overwhelming majority of the prison population ( 90% plus) in the US is … Christian.
I don’t really know where you are pulling your armchair psychology from, Wally, but it seems as if you have your theories ass- backwards, ‘scuse my French.
Seems atheism is actually the way to go. Yay!
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Ark,
It sounds like you and your atheist brethren practice Christianity the way they think it ought to be.
That makes you a Protestant just like your brethren from the other branch of your religious family tree, Bible Belt evangelical.
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Smile. Oh,you are my very <em favorite Dickhead, SOM. I cherish your spiritually uplifting words. They are as welcome as a dose of clap.
…. Well, I am a Protest – ant, especially against fools like you who would stand in the way of common sense, truth and honesty. You’ll find those words in the dictionary. Do you have one?
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Gee, Ark. Your brand of religion sounds just a bit worse than what you’re complaining about.
Hypocrisy is so easy to find.
All we have to do is look in the mirror.
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My religion, SOM?
Smile ….
If you say so.
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Ark,
“Yet, according to the Barna Research Group , the rate of divorce (in the US) is significantly higher among …. Conservative Christians., and much higher than atheists and agnostics.”
Sadly. you are correct. Note that one…I agreed with Ark! Shame on us for it, too. However, my feelings on men staying with their families is actually separate from my faith life. I felt that way before I was a believer.
“Interesting to also note: the overwhelming majority of the prison population ( 90% plus) in the US is … Christian.”
You mean that little check box they check when they are admitted? Religious affiliation does not constitute religious faith. You are spinning numbers again…I am not surprised
@ Silence…hey I am a Bible belt evangelical..not related to Ark..watch it! LOL.
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Did you have to go and wash out your mouth when you realised the truth of my comment? Shame
You object to spinning numbers! RFLMAO.
”Oh, heareth the hypocrite, that yea may not be smitted”
So if religious affiliation does not constitute religious faith/beleif this is even more heartwarming as it indicates what I have long believed: the religious figures for ”believers” is merely ”spinning numbers” and suggests people are cultural Christians.
Good! Then its demise will come sooner than expected.
Thank you for the clarification, Wally. You’re a pal.
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Ark…yeah the pill of agreeing with you goes down hard LOL.
Cultural Christians? Yep, the country is full of them…there you go, correct yet again. It must be backwards day today.
Are we going anywhere soon? Nah…don’t get too hopeful there Ark. Remember what Jesus told Peter…He built His church and the gates of Hell won’t prevail against her. Get on board for the ride, Ark…God loves you despite yourself. He loved me despite myself…yep…God so loved, “the world.”
Later..um..pal.
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Jesus of Nazareth? You mean the narrative construct?
And if you want to understand ”Hell”, why don’t you research what your man-god actually said about it.
Not too many big words; you should manage just fine.
You can pronounce Gehenna, and Sheol, right?
Remember, the character Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, Wally. He didn’t actually have a Christian hell, Wally.
That was simply made up. Don’t you know anything about the history of your religion?
This is what going to church and listening to pastors does to your brain. Makes it like mashed potato.
Why not do some genuine historical study- it will make a nice change for you.
You will be a rarity among believers , might even become the envy of all your friends. Now there’s a thought…
😉
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Naw…I caint pernounce nun of them big words Ark. LOL…not going down you stupid trail on that subject again. You need to stay on topic.
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That’s because you are a moral coward, Wally.And why you still, teach it to kids.
Are you not commanded to question stuff by your man god or does your church neatly sidestep such issues and encourage abject stupidity?
Fir the record, the subject of Hell is one of the major reasons cited by deconvertees as why they left the church/Christianity.
Oh, and shouldn’t you also be berating SOM? He is, after all a Catholic and follower of the anti-Christ.
After all, it is because of him and his Church that your are a Protestant.
Isn’t it hypocritical to ”entertain” Catholics?
Just asking.
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Ark..I did not berate silence. ..you are stirring trouble. .sheesh. We call that comment a joke.
Silence…That was meant as humor Brother.
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Wally,
I don’t get it. I guess you had to be there.
No harm. No foul.
Just don’t call me a troll like all the atheists do.
That would really hurt my feelings.
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Ok…Actually…Your comments are awesome Silence. Keep it up!
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I fully realise it was said in jest, Wally, but SOM is still a follower of the anti-Christ, as considered by many Protestants, and especially by Young Earth Vegetarian Dinosaur Creationists like yourself, who are at the forefront of such beliefs.
As you believe he will be spending eternity being tortured in Hell, don’t you think you have a duty to proselytize and at least try to put him back on a righteous path to salvation? After all, we are talking about his immortal soul here, yes?
So, just how much of a stand up bloke are you, Wally?
Best you at least warn SOM. You’re not a coward are you?
I mean, you’re lightning fast when it comes to warning me.
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Ark’s got nothing. Total forfeit as he resorts to personal attacks and attempts to sow division. It’s in the atheist handbook, page 121, “what to do when you haven’t got a leg to stand on.”
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Yep IB..standard operating procedure for the atheist army. No.sweat here.
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Sow division? Good Grief! The sheer audacity of some people. The utter unmitigated gall underpinned with outrageous ignorance. (Granted, these are Hallmark of the religious, but still )
With over 30,000 plus separate Christian denominations, a history of internecine violence including on-going wars around the globe among all religions I believe my comments is a breath fresh air in comparison.
So are you saying that conservative Christians, especially Vegetarian Dinosaur Young Earth Creationist types do not believe that the likes of SOM, are not following the anti-Christ?
Let’s examine this shall we?
If the adversaries defend these human services as meriting justification, grace, and the remission of sins, they simply establish the kingdom of Antichrist. For the kingdom of Antichrist is a new service of God, devised by human authority rejecting Christ, just as the kingdom of Mahomet has services and works through which it wishes to be justified before God; nor does it hold that men are gratuitously justified before God by faith, for Christ’s sake. Thus the Papacy also will be a part of the kingdom of Antichrist if it thus defends human services as justifying. Apology of the Augsburg Confession XV. 18.
And the Baptists …(Now Wally is a Baptist, remember)
In 1689 a group of Baptist ministers published a Confession of Faith setting out their beliefs for all to see. For the most part they followed the famous Westminster Confession of Faith as they were keen to stress their unity with the Presbyterians. The Confession covers many doctrines. Chapter 26 talks about the church. There are 15 paragraphs, No 4 says
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. In Him, by the appointment of the Father, is vested in a supreme and sovereign manner all power for the calling, institution, order, or government of the Church. The Pope of Rome cannot in any sense be head of the Church, but he is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God, who the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Who has the moral fortitude to answer this one truthfully? Wally?
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Yep Ark…answer is that guy has absolutely nothing to do with me. Nuff said.
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Which ”guy”? Wally?
You are a Vegetarian Dinosaur Young Earth Creationist and a Baptist.
Are you truly saying you only just realised that you are part of a church that believes Catholics are considered followers of the anti Christ?
Just how damned ignorant are you?
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Well, we arrive at the destination we always arrive at. Ark, when you run out of arguments..the name calling begins. As I always am going to do when you start all that…just gonna shake the dust off of my feet and await the next round. Besides, it’s almost time for my weekly Christian indoctrination session. Us cave people gotta stick together you know.
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What name calling?
And as usual you resort to your self-effacing passive aggressive trite ”I am a dumb ass” cave- people, southern boy, y’all homilies.
You are such a hypocrite. And an ignorant one at that.
But I am pleased I woke you up a little and actually taught you something about your religion.
It would be hilarious were it not so sad.
Well, sad because you preach to kids.
Oh, while you are at church, why not ask your Baptist minister how he stands on the anti-Christ and try to get some factual clarification on the Baptist Church’s official stance.
Let me know, okay?
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Ark..hit enter too soon
Ok..here is a thought. Pol Pot was an atheist and killed a few million people. Therefore Arkentaten,and atheist, is a mass murderer. Now, we know that’s not true, I suspect you are actually a caring person. Don’t paint me with the paintbrush of some guy from the 19th century either.
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Guys Wally, Guys. Or, Baptist ministers, in this case.
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Hitler was a Christian and exterminated 6 million Jews.
Did you know that , Wally?
Many Christians, today, especially evangelicals, don’t have a sense of history. They’ll quote Martin Luther left and right, but they won’t talk about the horrific things he wrote that Adolph Hitler adopted, like his 1543 tractate Concerning the Jews and Their Lies, where he recommended, among other things, that synagogues by burned, Jewish homes destroyed, and rabbis forbidden to teach under the threat of death.
I don’t think that the full ramifications of this point were made sufficiently clear. The man whose teachings are the basis of Protestantism is the same man whose teachings were the basis of the holocaust!
Many Christians try to blame the holocaust on atheism. This isn’t just factually wrong, it is egregiously so. Hitler specifically stated that he believed that he was doing God’s work by exterminating the Jews. Some Christians claim that this was just rhetoric, that he was actually an atheist perverting Christian teachings for his own purposes. I cannot read his mind, so I cannot know if this is true or not, but the point is immaterial. Even if Hitler was a closet atheist, the holocaust was sold to the German masses via the teachings of Martin Luther. Luther’s teachings were popularized in Nazi Germany and used as justification for the holocaust.
I will let you do the historical research – it’s good for you!
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Not unlike the petulant teenagers that you discussed previously IB, Ark fails to accept that he is here by your grace only and yet he continues to be abusive and negative and putting forth valueless argumets solely for the sake of arguing. if he had even a lick of common sense he would at least acknowledge that you are literally permitting him to abuse you. He has forgotten that you CAN make his presence here disappear. No fear that lad (at least I think he’s a lad, perhaps not).
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Ark, you just keep showing up and presenting the alternative to faith and I suspect Christianity will manage to survive a bit longer.
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That Christians have a same or higher divorce rate is actually a myth. Read:
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/?s=divorce
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You will note the reference was to conservative christians? Yes …. and did you read the original article and the ensuing commentary
I did. Maybe you should too?
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Merely trying to keep you honest, IB. A thankless, almost impossible job at the best of times.
And I have no doubt xianity will survive a bit longer – but like so many , many religions, it will evetuanlly pass into history.
Wave bye,bye, IB …there it goes….
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If Christianity goes, so goes atheism, something you might want to keep in mind. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there are some people in the world right now calling for the execution of all infidels. That would be you and I Ark. I don’t think those people are going to let go of their faith anytime soon and I suspect they don’t have a lot of tolerance for atheism either.
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Atheism is merely an absence of belief in gods. Why would it ”go” anywhere? What a silly thing to say
Execution of infidels? Well then, best we get shot of religion as quick as we can IB.
Oh, sorry, did you really think this was solely about your piss willy religious beliefs? Oh dear, oh dear. Such vanity…..
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Why would it ”go” anywhere?
Because atheism only exists in direct opposition to Christianity. Remove Christianity and your entire ideology collapses. Also, your next set of alien lizard over lords are likely to simply execute you, which would tend to put a wrench in the entire atheist movement.
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Not collapse, you silly woman, it is thus vindicated.
If Islam needs to chop off my head because its god says so, then this says sod all for your loving god, Yahweh, doesn’t it?
Rather suggests that this god, like all the others, is man mad too.
But at least you are thinking. A positive step.
Aliens lizard overlords!
I thought you lot didn’t believe in aliens – apart from the Catholics, of course.
Carl Sagan would punch the air and Yell, ”Yes!”
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IB, I see your brain is having a bad day: “(A)theism only exists in direct opposition to Christianity. Remove Christianity and your entire ideology collapses”.
You need to notify all those other religions that support killing non believers in the name of their faith that only Christians have this right because atheism is the opposite of Christianity!
Wow. Let bit never be said that you lack arrogance.
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“Not collapse, you silly woman, it is thus vindicated.”
And therein lays lies the profound danger of atheism. What you seek, you must destroy. Your quest to prove there is no God is so powerful, you will be driven to justify and validate your non belief, by creating evidence in the world that substantiates it. In order for an atheist to be “vindicated,” he must create a world that provides ample evidence that God has abandoned us completely.
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Main reason to leave religions in my opinion is when people finally get it how ridiculous all religions are from their very foundations and how religions have continuously and still are abused just to have a power over people.
And like I wrote about it on my blog recently, the religion teaches the wrong way. We are not born with this awful original sin and worshiping some God will somehow make it go away. Every person is born good and is up to them to decide what direction they want to perceive in their lives. You can either remain a good person or you can become a bad person. And for all this, you don’t need some invisible deity to guide you and use it as some sort of excuse for your actions. Make your own actions and stand accountable for them if they are bad.
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“We are not born with this awful original sin and worshiping some God will somehow make it go away. Every person is born good……”
That seems to be a frequent theme lately. Now you’ve gone and got me thinking about an entirely different post I should
write 😉
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Sorry. But you are so wrong. I do not actively seek to destroy religion, or prove there is no god, it is doing a pretty damn good job itself. Why stand in the way of the experts?
Look how much the religious are currently destroying? Africa, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria, etc and the hits keep coming ….
I don’t believe in any gods. Scientific evidence is taking care of the rest, thank god!
All I would wish is to hasten it along, cripple it a bit,( though this seems a paradox) by throwing a few nails in its path as it trudges to perdition. If we could tax the crap out of churches and somehow prevent kids from being exposed it would help. But in the end, it’s all good. It’s going, and that’s a fact and that’s what really counts. And what’s a couple of hundred years (if that) when the earth has endured thousands?
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@Paul
Arguments, Paul. I have no idea what an ”argumet” is.
Are you afraid to address the issue at hand or merely taunt IB for not banning me?
How weak are you?
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See what i mean? Valueless.
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So, are you going to address the issue at hand or merely espouse nonsensical waffle?
Let’s see you defend your faith , Paul instead of whining from the cheap seats.
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You’re good, but Boccaccio got there first:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23700/23700-h/23700-h.htm#THE_SECOND_STORY
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Like anything else in life, what I see, someone else will not. I can create a post addressing my love for children, and person-A would conclude that I hare people who live child-free lives, whereas person-B would conclude the post is a representation of pedophilia. Perception is a funny thing, because it can distort the original message.
Religion is no different in that regard. Some can obliterate scripture to push an agenda. The passage can say one thing, but person-A will exaggerate the theme completely. I see it happen in so many avenues, such as people saying the relationship I have with my wife is an abomination, because God does not want the different tribes mingling together.
Therefore, our children will be a spit in the face of His message. Like you, I was also blessed to learn about Christ through an external platform, but that was during my childhood. As an adult and a married man, we have adjusted the process to learn all over again to grasp a better understanding on our own. It is a long and difficult process, but it has been beneficial for our marriage. If I were instead raised in the things I observe now as an adult, I would be someplace with a sign saying “God bless dead soldiers,” or some other moronic message.
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I really am sorry that there are people so misguided that they would try to imply your marriage is an abomination. That is such a distortion of scripture, it leaves me sputtering. I may give atheists a hard time on occasion, but what really bothers me is those who spread hatred in His name. Now that really is an abomination.
I recently encountered one such fool and then bumped into this rather appropriate and timely poem 😉
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/sad-souls/
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Reblogged this on Trutherator's Weblog and commented:
On the other hand, if this were enough excuse to stop believing something, such as hypocrisy, there would be a lot more people turning away from default atheism than the other way around. God hates self-righteousness. If somebody offends you because they are hypocrites, you can go beyond that and seek the truth for its own sake.
In fact the comments here are another example of people who are offended with God over something like offensive self-righteous arrogance. But they react that way against God instead of the offender. Is this is “Judge not” crowd or the “Judge righteous judgment”?
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Religions are their own worst enemies, If you do,not practice what you preach, and if you preach hate and intolerance, you run people off! A wise old pastor told me, “You don’t get people to heaven by scaring the hell out of them!”
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Human Christian religion starts seems to me, handicapped: It must be transmitted and maintained in human hands, a rather sorry vehicle for often, uncomfortable truth. That it survives is indeed as said, a miracle.
Perhaps it is due for one of its periodic cleansings; the signs seem to resemble prior conditions leading to that?
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Thank you for visiting my blog and liking one of my posts. Blessings, Natalie 🙂
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Great post, IB. Looks like you’re having fun. 🙂
What I’ve found is that people are usually rejecting religion, pointing to bad examples of it in history or in their own personal experience, not authentic Christianity. They also use a wooden literal approach to the Bible, taking it out of its cultural context and purpose, to dismiss it and demean God’s character.
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The Church like every other human organisation is not perfect because the people in it are not perfect. But it will make a lot difference if we walk in love and by the leading of the Holy Spirit as we should do.
There is a difference between being involved in organised religion and having a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. The former may be very frustrating but the latter is very fulfilling. So in the end, what matters is having a personal relationship with Christ, not being a member of an organised religion.
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I was raised by atheists too IB.
I’m grateful to have had a church I walked to, to engage in fellowship at a young age (which started years before I could drive).
I disagree with you on religion.
and….
Faith Without Works Is Dead
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You don’t go to church to follow men you got to church to follow God. All of the offenses of which you speak are not of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anyone with any Biblical literacy would know that every one of those was one of these false doctrines spoken of. Redemption, salvation, justification, and sanctification for all men – Jew or gentile – from any nation or from any gender is the true Gospel. You wonder why I protect the Word of God as I do because it is mans only standard by which he can know love, or truth.
It is not open to personal interpretation for the above mentioned reasons- a man can and will twist the Word to support his personal beliefs…therefore I continue to affirm that there is but one Exegesis of scripture – WHAT GOD INTENDED. And he intended love, grace, redemption, salvation, reconciliation and sanctification.
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I think there are two distinct categories of people in this area: Those who leave / abandon their faith and those who simply leave the church. Each group has their own set of reasons for their departure. But many who leave the church have done so to save their faith. Certainly not all, as leaving church is often the first step towards leaving your faith, but enough people that it should cause church leaders everywhere to ask the hard questions.
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I really agree. We should be asking some hard questions. There is a huge “unchurched church” out there. In my mind I am thinking, “we are the church,” it is not really an institution. Besides who wants to live in an institution? 🙂
But what I mean is that we should be examining ourselves and asking these hard questions. Far too often there is this real “us against them” attitude as if it is not really our problem that so many people are outside the church.
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People leave because of fundamentalism, fundamentalism turns faith into a creepy bargain with a sadist in the sky.
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