“For the glory” is a slogan for this crazy race where I live, where people dress up and compete for silly titles, like “Most Mediocre.” It’s kind of fun to watch. Needless to say, every time I hear, “for the glory” my mind is filled with visions of that race, a rather undignified affair, “the glory” being not all that glamorous.
Recently there have been some discussions with atheists about, “why?” Why in the repetitive way children sometimes ask questions, not stopping long enough to actually listen to the answer. Why did God create man? What is the purpose of the creation? Why?
For God’s glory! That is the purpose of creation. That is our purpose too, to glorify God. That’s the big answer, the formal answer. From there on down, creation and people too, have lesser missions, individual purposes, roles to play in the story.
To ask “why” in that kind of analytical voice, as if we should now provide the precise specs and God’s written mission statement and bylaws on the purpose of His creation, is about as silly as asking “why” about that race I spoke of. Why? Why not? For the glory!
It’s too much like trying to download watermelon ideas into a pea brain.
I have heard another aspect of the creation story however,one that will satisfy absolutely no one, but I do love to celebrate critical thinking, people reading scripture and imagining scenarios, pondering things we have no way of really knowing conclusively.
The concept suggests that satan fell to the earth at the start of Genesis, that he was banished from heaven when the earth was void and formless, dark and chaotic. That is the essence of who he is, designed for the glory of God, designed for worship, but he actually wanted to be God, so he is a fallen angel, as in literally he fell to earth, now formless, dark, and chaotic.
For some people that helps to explain what they see as a discrepancy in Genesis, a formless void, earth that seems to exist before it is actually created. I do not share that observation, I find the first few chapters of Genesis to be presented in a literary format that makes perfect sense to me. But other people, some who are pretty smart and have studied such things, speculate that satan is on the earth first, which explains why he is also in the garden on that unfortunate day.
Perhaps, not unlike we see in the book of Job, satan is testing God, challenging Him, asking who will worship you, who will sing your praises now that I have fallen to earth? And perhaps God simply reached down, scooped up some dirt, and formed Adam.
He will, this man of dirt I have made in my image.
From what we read in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” God knows exactly what He is doing, He has a plan, He is the author and finisher of our faith. Nothing is happening in haste or outside of God’s control.
I have no idea exactly how it all played out, but I like the concept because the earth is formless, dark, a void lacking life. Satan cannot create anything ex nihilo, he can only pervert what is already there. I like the idea of God coming along and simply speaking to the darkness, let there be light. Let there be water in the dry land and seas teeming with life.
And let this scoop of dirt become a man made in my image, for my glory.
Some think “glory” means “vanity,” It does not. It means to take pride or pleasure in, it means to bestow with honor, it means magnificence and great beauty. “Woman is the glory of man” and man is the glory of God, meaning His treasure, His masterpiece. We give glory to God because He is good, because He first gave glory to us. We were not created in an act of vanity anymore then an artist might paint a picture in an act of vanity. Our existence brings glory to God, not unlike women’s existence brings glory to man.
The question really should not be “why,” but why do you object?
john zande said:
You are aware, aren’t you, the Führer would cry, “For the GLORY of the Third Reich.”
But you still haven’t answered the fundamental question, a question that should be the first asked by all believers: For what purpose does Creation serve?
Glory, I’m afraid, doesn’t answer it. God, an aseitic being, was already glorious. Everything was that glory, This artificial world did not increase glory, as that would negate the theisis of an aseitic being… and I don’t think you’re about to say that.
So, given this is an artificial world, a thing created separately, the question remains: For what purpose does Creation serve?
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ColorStorm said:
John
A serious question.
Why do you persist in asking questions about a God who you say is non existent, since ANY question will NEVER satiate your alleged curiosity, other than malign scripture and God?
Your eternal spear tossing at God and scripture will never increase your argument one iota btw.
But here’s a bonus thought just for you:
For God’s pleasure all things ARE, and WERE created. Didja catch that? That perfect unmoving lake high in the mountains gives Him delight. It would be nice if you were able to conceive that you and I are irrelevant as to that lake. If you were to appreciate that, fine. If not, too bad, God loses no sleep if people ignore Him.
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john zande said:
I ask because you people keep forwarding the hypothesis… a hypothesis that doesn’t even seem to have a grasp of the why’s.
That perfect unmoving lake high in the mountains gives Him delight.
So, that means earthquakes, mudslides, wildfires and childhood leukemia give him pleasure, too?
Interesting.
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ColorStorm said:
@johnz
‘You people?’ Uh hello? Us people in this zip code are actually rational, quite sane, and able to articulate points that give all due regard to the Creator.
Here is more proof: The ‘earthquake’ was/is a new thing, and when understood in the context of WHY the earth quaked in the first place, gives both context to the rebellion of man, and gives honor to the God who has power over ALL things.
Even YOUR wrath praises Him jz. Look up in the scriptures when the earth first opened her mouth and swallowed things………… 😉
God is ahead of every single objection of yours, and truth be told, this must infuriate you that believers actually have answers that make perfect sense, unlike the guesswork of godlessness.
As I said, SANE…….. as in you are in excellent hands at this site.
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john zande said:
Really? So the earth was not created with tectonic activity? So the whole mantel, crust, molten core thing is new, huh? Tell me, how then did the earth stay fertile without the necessary recycling of the crust?
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ColorStorm said:
You can rest assured jz that He who made the dirt is well aware of what lies beneath the surface, and if things move, it is of course with His knowledge and permission.
Just think of an earthquake as a hiccup as it were, evidence of a chink in the armor.
Like that word molten though, reminds me of God’s firmament of molten glass……
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insanitybytes22 said:
You are asking a question along the lines of, why did Bach compose his music? What purpose does it serve,really? Why did Michelangelo paint the Sistine chapel? Why do we bother to get out of bed in the morning,what purpose does it serve?
God does not need us, He is aseitic,you are right. But He wants us, He desires us, He created us much like Bach created his music, because it was pleasing to him to do so. Why are men driven to create? Because we are made in the image of our Creator,who also likes to create.
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john zande said:
Terrible analogy. Bach and Michelangelo were patrons of arts already in existence.
The Sistine Chapel was commissioned.
Was this world commissioned?
Was world-making an existing art form?
He wants us, He desires us
OK, why? What purpose does this world, an artificial contrivance, serve?
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Citizen Tom said:
You want a creature like yourself to perfectly explain the motives of the Creator of the Universe? The Bible does not exist to do that that. How could it? We would not understand it? As it is no one completely understand the Bible.
The Bible exists primarily to tell us how much God loves us. He loves us enough to redeem us. Why did He create us? He created us so that we could love Him. Have you ever seen two people in love. Have you ever notice how each is glorified by the love of the other?
Why does God feel glorified by the love of His creations. I don’t know. Compared to Him we don’t amount to much. Yet I believe Jesus is God, that He is the only begotten Son of God, that He was born of woman, lived a sinless life, died as He hung on a tree, and rose from the dead — for our sake. And it was all to the glory of the Father. Jesus glorified the Father
more than the rest of us all put together ever will.
Because Jesus loves us — because the Father loves us and because Jesus loves the Father — Jesus became one of us to glorify the Father. What makes any us worthy of such love? If I knew, perhaps I could answer your question. Yet there are people I love. There are people whose love I cherish.
Is there anyone you love, John? Is there anyone whose love you desire and enjoy?
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declutteringmylifeweb said:
I agree with you that it is weird that humans are trying to give exact reason why God did this or that. Those who really believes that God created all should not be so self-important to think that they can understand something they are not capable of. We can imitate flying birds, swimming fish and can create things but we do not create from scretch.
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john zande said:
Aren’t you at least even a little curious as to the purpose of Creation?
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declutteringmylifeweb said:
Of course I am but I could only guess.
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john zande said:
Fair enough.
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declutteringmylifeweb said:
Actually not so long ago people used to think that we were the center of the universe, which is definitely not the case…. As far as I trust the official scientific findings. ….
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john zande said:
Why did He create us? He created us so that we could love Him.
Well, for starters, that contradicts what two other commenters have said. One said it was an internal gift to himself, the other said it was to create a place where he could put his love. You’re now saying it was for him to receive love… devotion, praise, worship, applause.
Desiring adoration is certainly a valid proposal. It encounters some rather savage historical problems in that the world is 13.8 billion years old, and we humans are 1.2 million years old, with modern humans just 200,000 years old. This is not to mention that the relative new human mind is grown inside a 0.0013 cubic meters crystalline calcium phosphate box on the 149 million km2 rocky surface of a 510 million km2 planet that is falling in a straight line over curved space at 108,000 kilometres per hour inside the gravity well of a 6 trillion km2 star on a 250 million year sojourn around the centre of a galaxy containing some 400 billion stars and trillions of planets and moons. That galaxy itself is, however, just a tiny, dirty blotch in the web that makes the observable universe: a flat, ruthlessly cold sheet whose edge lies a thought-haemorrhaging 430 billion trillion kilometres away from earth in every direction.
As you can see, there’s an awful lot of space and time there which simply isn’t explained by your proposal.
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Citizen Tom said:
@John
You are entitled to your question. Will you ever get a perfect answer? In this life? I doubt it. In what comes next?
Our ability to know anything is limited. So whenever we make a decision, we have to have at least a little bit of faith. So it is that when we get in our car to go some place, we have to have faith the car will start, we can drive it, we know where to go, the sky won’t fall, and so forth. Similarly, when we worship God, we have to have faith He has revealed Himself to us, He cares about us, He wants our worship, and so forth.
You mentioned a bunch of statistic in which you apparently have considerable faith. It seems you are much impressed by the “fact” the vastness of universe has been around for awhile. Supposedly, in all that space and much of that time there were and are no humans around to worship God. For some inexplicable reason you think that an issue. For all powerful, infinite God? I don’t understand why. His name means “I AM”. Think about it. He created time and space, and it His to do with what He wishes, as are we.
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john zande said:
You seem to be confusing faith (belief without evidence) with rational belief (belief justified by evidence). I believe my car will work today because it did yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that. My belief is justified.
For some inexplicable reason you think that an issue.
Perfectly explicable, as the notes were presented in the context of your proposal, which only seemed to deal with humans…. inexplicably failing to mention the sheer volume of everything else 😉
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Citizen Tom said:
Not true. I have plenty of evidence. I am satisfied by the evidence I have, and I have put my faith in it.
Consider the irony. The Bible says the heaven declare the glory of God, and here you are complaining the stars don’t give glory to God. I wonder how you can be serious, and yet you are.
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john zande said:
You mean this failed view of the cosmos and the earth declares your god’s glory?
Interesting
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Citizen Tom said:
Failed view? The chart is interesting, but I go with what I actually find in the Bible, and that is not a failed view.
Science, which it seems you would substitute for Christianity is an inappropriate substitute. Christianity, using the Bible as its primary resource, provides wisdom. Science only models cause and effect.
If I wish to understand as best we can how something works, I turned to science. If that past repeats itself, note that current scientific theories will eventually “fail” and be replace by better theories.
Science provides information, not wisdom. If I wish to make a moral decision, what I should do, I turn to the wisdom provided by the Bible, and I pray. The Bible provides historical examples and wisdom. The Bible has withstood the test of time.
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john zande said:
Oh, so it was just too hard to say “The Earth is a sphere orbiting a star, orbiting the center of a vast galaxy that is orbiting other galaxies in a universe so immense none can see the horizon.”
Now, if they’d said that 2,500 years ago, I’d be impressed.
They didn’t say that. They said the earth was flat.
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Citizen Tom said:
The Bible does not say the earth flat. Assuming you know what you are talking about, what passed for science among educated Jews taught the earth is flat.
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john zande said:
The word used in the bible is khûg, meaning
circle.
The word for ball is Dur
The word for sphere is Kadur
Yes, CT, the bible says the earth is flat.
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Citizen Tom said:
Snort! That’s the best you can do. I don’t believe it, I could come up with better “proof” than that.
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john zande said:
OK, I look forward to reviewing what you present…
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Citizen Tom said:
Well, here is something to keep you more occupied while you wait.
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declutteringmylifeweb said:
I have read somewhere that despite being created to worship the denial of worshipping itself was enough to fall, the wish to be God was not even necessary. Actually if you look around in our societies this denial is still enough to fall out of salary.
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authorstephanieparkermckean said:
Amen! I’m not smart enough to even attempt asking God why. Job is a good reminder to still oneself before the glory of God and trust.
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Salvageable said:
Interesting thoughts. My study of the Bible has led me to believe that Creation is a gift created by the Father for the Son. Of course he made it through the Son, but that does not make it any less of a gift. Because it was given to him, the Son willingly entered Creation to redeem and repair it, even though he is not to blame for its faults (nor is the Father). But to view Creation as a gift of love from one Person of the Trinity to another gives more focus to the sense of glory in the purpose of Creation. J.
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insanitybytes22 said:
That’s an interesting concept, Salvageable! I rather like it. It fits in well with my view of God as a whole unto Himself, the Person of the Trinity existing in relationship and love with one another, gifting each part so to speak.
Needless to say it is challenging to speak of such things with any clarity or accuracy, “3 in One” or “One in 3” as a Whole, not exactly being a concept we have good language for describing.
I do believe God is self contained, has no real “need” of us, is not dependent on our worship, but He desires it, He choses it, He seeks it even. I like that.
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Salvageable said:
I agree completely with your description of God. “God is love” even apart from creation, within the three Persons of the Trinity. But how beautiful that he shares that love with us and does not hold it within himself. J.
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john zande said:
If I may make an observation here. Your concept of a sort of internal giving within the threefold godhead (which is quite a nice thought) contradicts what pamtanya45 (another Christian) said, in that God needed a place to put his love, and that was the purpose (the reason) of creating this artificial world.
I raise this contradiction only to highlight that no two people seem to have the same opinion or thought on the matter, which is, to me, quite astonishing considering the sheer import of the question.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I see no contradiction at all.
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john zande said:
One opinion posits it was an internal gift, to himself in a manner of speaking. The other opinion proposes that an external scape was constructed and populated to pass out love.
These opinions are diametrically opposed.
But if you see no contradiction, then I guess there mustn’t be one 😉
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insanitybytes22 said:
I am exceedingly content with the inherent harmony between those opinions.
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john zande said:
🙂
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Salvageable said:
John, you are quite correct in establishing that God needs nothing outside himself to be complete. That supports the view that creation is a gift from the Father to the Son. Yet it is the nature of God to love. Therefore, the love within the Trinity overflows beyond the Trinity once creation exists. Hence the contradiction you perceive is not a real contradiction. Again, God did not need to create anything, but he chose to do so as an expression of love, and now there are other beings made in his image to love him and one another, expanding the perfection of love. J.
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john zande said:
Hi Salvageable
bonum diffusivum sui, goodness flowed over. In essence, Aquinas is saying Creation was an inevitable accident. This, though, then contradicts what you say a few sentences later in “but he chose to do so as an expression of love…”
So, was it a choice, or an inevitable accident?
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Salvageable said:
I have the courage to disagree with the great Thomas Aquinas and say that Creation is a free choice by God. At the same time, the will of God can be described as inevitable–love is his nature, and that love will overflow into Creation. I can live with that paradox. J.
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pamtanya45 said:
l absolutely love this!!!!
Such a relevant piece of written work…too often the most ridiculous questions are asked about God, who He is and what part He plays in humanity’s existence. Too often there is such a negative and critical ideology in answering those questions with people only trying to show off their intellectual capacity, not knowing that God is beyond mere human intellect and comprehending Him in His fullness is not possible….He does what He does for His pleasure…for His glory..
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john zande said:
Interesting. You first say, God is beyond mere human intellect and comprehending Him in His fullness is not possible only to thoroughly contradict yourself just three ellipses later with He does what He does for His pleasure.
So, as you so clearly know God’s mind, and the reasons for why he created this artificial world, could you tell me what ‘pleasure’ (as you say) he elicits from Creation?
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Could you tell me what ‘pleasure’ (as you say) he elicits from Creation?”
Well, I can tell you he takes great delight in my creation, Zande.
As to your own, well…. perhaps you had better ask Him yourself 🙂
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pamtanya45 said:
That is not a contradiction though, me saying He does what He does for His pleasure is simply taking God’s word;
If you read Genesis, the story of creation, every time God completed creating what He had in His mind, He saw that it was good, it says so…It was according to His standards of what pleased Him, of what He defined as ‘good’. He created the world, because He wanted to, for Himself…to have fellowship with His creation, a relationship, a companionship…that is why we are relational beings, our Creator is relational…that much He makes clear throughout the bible;
The story of the Israelites is one were you see ups and downs in the relationship between God and His chosen people. Jesus Himself is a symbol of God’s desire to have a healthy relationship with His most prized possession (mankind)..’For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…’
So yes, if we are to put it into the human context; you delight in your child, that is your creation with your partner. You protect and love your child (under normal circumstances) and you fight for them to have a great life and you also want to have a very good relationship with them even if your child often does things you do not like and you punish them for that.
To say I know the mind of God would be quite far fetched…I know as much as I have read from the book that is the constitution of Christianity; that being the bible. My interpretation of it is sorely based on my relationship with God and the Holy Spirit . Now I have no evidence of that, that is entirely personal conviction and what I have seen to be true through that…
To say this world is artificial is interesting…so what is real then? Are we all delusional somehow in thinking this is real?mmmm…
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Wally Fry said:
How nice for some your haters to immediately compare God to Adolph Hitler. That, in a nutshell is why some people are not worthy of a spit in a bucket. As you said, Watermelon thoughts in a pea brain. Shooting a pea shooter I might add. Good stuff IB.
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john zande said:
Hi Wally
can you show me where Yhwh was compared to Hitler?
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Wally Fry said:
Um…in your opening comment on this post? Of course, I await your spin on what you said eagerly.
As you say….interesting
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john zande said:
Yes, can you show me where Yhwh is compared to Hitler?
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Wally Fry said:
Ok John. If it makes you feel better, the actual comparison was comparing Christians who bow to God’s glory to Nazis bowing to Hitler. Whatever. We all know exactly what you were hoping to accomplish.
Grow up. You are just chasing this around to avoid the questions put to you by other commenters.
So, in light of the fact that you are worth about as much in discussion as that spit in the bucket I mentioned, I shall retire from conversation with you until you address questions that have been asked of you. Based on your history, that means forever.
Have a nice day!
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john zande said:
No Wally, you’re just projecting your own paranoid state of mind, imagining an example of word use as a personality comparison.
Since you’re here, though, can you answer the question as to the purpose of Creation?
If you can’t, no problem.
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Wally Fry said:
For
God’s
Glory
Have a nice day!
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john zande said:
No Wally, that doesn’t actually explain anything. And as I have already pointed out to Inanity, God, an aseitic being, was already glorious. Everything was that glory. This artificial world did not increase glory, as that would negate the thesis of an aseitic being… and I don’t think you’re about to say that.
So, unless you think God isn’t aseitic, we’re still left with the question, a question that should really keep every believer up at nights: What was the purpose of creating this artificial world? For what purpose does it serve?
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Wally Fry said:
For His Glory
That’s the answer John though you hate it
If you want a different one you will have to look elsewhere
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john zande said:
OK, for his glory. That would then mean for vanity because, as I have already pointed out, God, an aseitic being, was already glorious. Everything was that glory. This artificial world did not increase glory, as that would negate the thesis of an aseitic being.
Vanity.
That’s an OK answer. It’s probably not exactly the one most Christians would say, but it works in a very Donald Trump sort of way.
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Wally Fry said:
No,no I never said that
You lie
Have a nice day!
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john zande said:
Actually, you did, without using the word… Unless, of course, you don’t believe Yhwh to be an aseitic being.
You have a nice day, too, Wally.
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pamtanya45 said:
Also God is love and love cannot exist in isolation…love gives…God created mankind to have a place to give the love that He has, the love that He is…and henceforth we are His priced possession…made to receive His very nature..Love
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john zande said:
Well, then you’re confronted with the Problem of Evil.
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pamtanya45 said:
Evil is just like love in that it also cannot exist in isolation…but evil destroys and love builds..even if it is a problem it eliminates itself eventually and what endures above all is love. I mean the world as we know it is a great example of that…wars destroy..that is a kind of evil related to a hunger for power…unfortunately in that destruction people lose their lives showing the effects of the problem of Evil….
The problem of Evil does not change the nature and effect of Love…it may be a problem…But it cannot change what Love can do
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SmilaZ said:
The whole of everything is so much bigger than some Sheeple race. We have been so fooled most of us. We are to love and apreciate ~ be grateful for, and thereby take good care of our Paradise, that garden is so obviously here on this planet. And obviously Humans wrote all those pages. And the same groups of people behind all those different religion pages, are the same groups who destroyed so many MANY books and ancient old documents, and are still hiding some. It is the elite of the world who lead us badly then and lead us to race games today. It keeps us separated so that we can all be alone and lonely against each other. Because there is so extremely many of us and so very few of them, so that if we were actually together connected, standing by each other as deep and hard, and as profound and wise as we normaly coulda shoulda woulda, then we would be the biggest thread to them loosing their power. We would become selfsuficient and independent. We would cure all ills instead of treating symptoms for billions of money. We would tribe up together. very quockly we would all come to notice that nature has litterally all we need amd more. Nature is wise and perfect, while too any of us think nature is primitive and dirty. WHY because we are separated and disconnected from our prescious nature. …and that is obviously why? Because it has all we need and it doesnt want or need money from us. it just needs us to understand it amd know it well so we can care for it properly in return for all it gives us for free. And so on it goes.
They killed the man called Jesus because he was preaching in the same similar dirrections. He was a thread to the few rulers. Very simple it all is actually.
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Mel Wild said:
I like how John Piper defined God’s glory…”the glory of God is the going public of his infinite worth.”
If we think of this “infinite worth” as absolute goodness, with other-centered, self-giving love being the true nature of God. Then, when we participate in this (by abiding in Christ – John 15:1-11), we make His perfect nature publically known. This is shown by giving the same grace to others we would want for ourselves, forgiving, loving our enemies, not seeking revenge, going the extra mile, unconditionally loving others, having integrity, not being judgmental and hypocritical, etc. This was Jesus’ point to us with the Sermon on the Mount (Matt.5-7). When we show this, we “display” what our heavenly Father is actually like. This is how Jesus glorified His Father and how the Father glorified Jesus. God’s love for us looks like the cross. And the benefit to us is that we can now experience the infinite and abiding joy found in the other-centered, self-giving love found in the life of God.
No, God did not need us, but He chose us by creating us, and He created us to enjoy what He has always enjoyed in the Trinitarian life between the Father and Son and Spirit from before creation. He did it to open this eternal fellowship to us, so that we could display, and therefore, share in His glory. This is why Jesus said that the world would know Him through our love for one another; and through that love they would know that He loves them the same (John 13:35; 17:21-26).
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thesoulwhispersblog said:
You’ve generated some great discussion! 🙂
I’ve wrestled with understanding what it truly means to be made for God’s glory. Isn’t it selfish of God to create us for the soul purpose of giving Him glory? To think that we are created to make someone other than us greater is an ego downgrade. Yet to be made for His glory frees me up from exhausting thoughts about my life’s purpose and why wouldn’t I want to illuminate the One who is good and loving?
https://thesoulwhispersblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/08/brighter-and-more-beautiful/
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