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You Weren’t There — a letter to pastors from a survivor of domestic abuse
It’s a good letter, so well said. I see Sam Powell has also linked to it.
I’m going add a link to Matt’s post too, The Cancer of Misunderstanding, because I pushed back a bit over there too, against this idea that men are just good, that the problem we have here is just a communication issue. Matt is pretty cool, not saying he’s ever been abusive, but he’s a divorced guy looking at what goes wrong in marriage. So he’s kind of the “control” in my little experiment, the ordinary guy who just thinks most guys are just good guys, and couples just need to communicate better.
That actually kind of annoyed me. I can’t think of a single woman that doesn’t know how to communicate. We’re kind of master communicators, especially when it comes to relationships. So this idea that “we” just need to learn to communicate better didn’t sit well with me. Neither did the idea that men are just good guys who don’t know any better. If your actions don’t match your words, it’s not that you don’t know any better, it’s that you just don’t care.
If you are actually abusing your wife, even just emotionally, it is because you do not care, not because you are a misunderstood puppy dog.
Back to “You weren’t there, a letter to pastors from a survivor of domestic abuse.” It’s a good letter, so well done.
My problem is that we’re approaching this issue as if it were pastors against domestic violence victims. While there are always real lunkheads in the world, most are not. Most pastors are aware and understanding. I dislike this adversarial kind of setup, where it is women against the church or the church against women. Men can be victims of abuse too, so really what we’re doing is creating this oppressed versus oppressors kind of attitude and we’re doing it along gender lines. That alienates women from “the church,” it deprives us of the healing that can be found there, it cuts us off from pastoral care. While I’m sure there are rotten churches out there, we’re painting with far too broad of a brush.
There’s another issue here too, men often have a tendency to always think they’re good. So they act horrible, but they think they’re good guys, their secret intentions are good, that makes them good in their own eyes. They just don’t know better, boys will be boys, it’s just a communication problem. Or she’s just crazy, perceiving reality wrong, because I’m good. Pride perhaps.
If our marriages fail, we have a hand in it. If they succeed, we have a hand in it. If our spouse is miserable, we have a hand in it. We’re supposed to take some responsibility.
In faith, we’re also supposed to understand “there are none righteous, not one.” We’re supposed to understand that it is because of our flaws that we need salvation in the first place. So this investment into our own alleged goodness is not supposed to be happening, as if we can just bend the fabric of the universe and make it true.
Most women do not suffer from that burden of thinking ourselves “good,” because in the culture, and sadly sometimes in the church too, women are perceived as always flawed, never good enough. It’s either endless advertising telling us we’re too fat, too old, too seductive, not seductive enough, or else it’s a tiny part of the church falsely subscribing to this curse of Eve stuff.
One thing pastors can really do to help is to just name abuse, evil, sin, for what it is. That simple. It’s validating, affirming, it brings sudden clarity to the situation. This false idea that we have two equals who just can’t see eye to eye is really harmful, because it’s not truthful. It creates moral ambiguity and confusion. If you are mugged for example, we would never suggest you just need to empathize with the mugger better, communicate more effectively, learn to understand one another. But that is pretty much what we ask of women all the time, not just in the church, but in society as a whole.
Women tend to live under this umbrella of, “it’s your fault.” I live in the second most secular part of the country and I see it everyday, so this is not “the church,” at fault, this is culture, biology, and advertising. Ads, endless commercials, socialization, all whittle away at women’s perceptions of ourselves. We tend to have a heightened sense of responsibility over things we can’t even control. And most of the guys just think they’re good. Not my problem, not my responsibility….
Yesterday I ran into a guy, unsaved, former addict, convicted pedophile, abused his girlfriend, dealing with some theft issues, and doggone if the first words out of his mouth weren’t, “I’m really a good guy.”
Most women I know are really starved for some affirmation, validation, and men taking responsibility. I’m rather happily married, but absolute music to my ears is to hear, “It’s my fault. I’ll take care of that. Don’t worry about it, that’s my responsibility. You’re not crazy, I was just being a jerk.”
You want to really hit it out of the park, “that’s my job, not yours.” My job to worry. My job to figure out how to pay that bill. My job to handle this thing you are fretting about.
That’s grace. Unmerited favor. That’s what Jesus Christ did for us all. He stepped in, He intervened, He paid the bill. It’s that same kind of grace that makes marriage flow so well, that sacrificial love, that willingness to take responsibility, not because it’s your fault, but because of the role you have stepped into. Jesus Christ was perfect, sinless, He actually was good, and yet He gave His very life for us. Reflect that kind of love, however imperfectly, and you’ve got a beautiful recipe for marriage.
I am actually far more concerned about this foundational concept of faith not reaching us, not permeating our souls, then I am about domestic violence. DV is a symptom of flawed thinking, of failed grace. You cannot reflect grace towards someone else if you haven’t received it yourself. You cannot love someone else if you haven’t been loved yourself.
“…If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me…”
When we promote or advocate this idea that guys are good, when they aren’t being good at all, we are actually depriving them of grace, adding a burden to their performance, making their own redemption contingent on their own perceived goodness. Grace is something you receive not because you are good, but because He is good. We can set the burden of our own goodness down at the foot of the cross.
That’s not a DV problem, not a communication problem, not a marriage problem, not a man woman thing, that’s a flawed doctrine problem. Fix the flawed doctrine problem, and the rest will fall into place.
God never said, “your own sin is just a 50/50 shared issue, a communication problem, stemming from the fact that you are just misunderstood and no one ever taught you right from wrong.” That isn’t true in a healthy marriage, it isn’t true in a broken one, and I can’t find it anywhere in the bible either.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
“You cannot reflect grace towards someone else if you haven’t received it yourself. You cannot love someone else if you haven’t been loved yourself.”
Absolutely right. And it’s not that we haven’t been offered the gifts; they are there for the taking. But I’ve said before, receiving unconditional love and grace are the most difficult things to accept, either due to our own shame and guilt or because we cannot fathom sharing the gifts with others.
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Hey Memi!
The below Scripture is perhaps the main thing The God of The Universe tells us to do about “abuse”, and all other sins.
To the woman’s point about “you weren’t there”, well, the kids were, so Word required witness is available in her situation.
Then, one of the many problems with “A Cry for Justice” is that “you weren’t there” doesn’t cut both ways, unless one happens to be Lundy bancroft, then “you weren’t there” doesn’t apply because Lundy is an alleged “expert”, and then Barb and Jeff are, by association.
But on the plus side, what if the woman is right and correct about everything she says about her husband?
All “Pastor James” or any other Pastor would have to do is obey Jesus per Matthew 18.
“Husband, what is your debt situation?” (The financial records are a “witness”.)
“What happened to the pets?”
“How did that injury happen?”
Not surprizingly, my experience of false “abuse” charges, (by a woman I had never met or spoken with) was not unlike that of
the woman writing the letter. Pastors who thought they had some “expertise” applied their own word, instead of God’s Word to our situation, with predicatbly awful results.
Matthew 18
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
Thoughts?
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Well,we’ve got three issues going on here, ordinary relationships between men and women, false accusations, and domestic violence.
I think we need to differentiate here, “a Word required witness” is something that comes up when you are making a formal accusation or testifying in a court of law. The vast majority of DV victims are simply asking for help, someone to assist them in sorting it all out. One of the women supporting Pastor Wilson spoke of turning to him in confusion, not really understanding what was going on, and he pointed out that she was being abused,emotionally, psychologically. That marriage has now been healed,she feels supported. There is change happening.
False allegations tend to happen when we jump from a goal of healing the victim to seeking revenge against the perpetrator. I support putting the victim’s needs first, safety, healing. So sometimes the legal system gets involved, sometimes the church gets involved, sometimes there are consequences, justice when we hurt people, but the focus and motivation is what makes it different.
False allegations are rare, but there are some people with agendas, people who aren’t focused on healing at all, they’re vigilantes, collecting scalps, seeking revenge.
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Don’t have much interest in leaping into the debate between you and Matt. I just suspect both of you need to put yourselves in each others shoes. Matt’s post is not about abuse. It may be a poor definition of misunderstanding. Unreasonable stubbornness. Stupidity. Thickheaded pride. Those phrases might be more accurate, but not intentional abuse.
Because we don’t read minds, we can perceive unreasonable stubbornness, stupidity, and thickheaded pride as “mental abuse”. That’s the behavior that results from unreasonable stubbornness, stupidity, and thickheaded pride feels quite abusive to the recipient. Yet, we are are all stubborn, stupid, thickheaded, and too proud. So we all need patience and forgiveness from our spouses. We all need our spouses to heap hot coals upon our unreasonable stubbornness, stupidity, and thickheaded pride (Romans 12:20).
It is unfortunate, but we all have our own point-of-view, and we would rather not concede any other point-of-view exists. Thus, we can protect our unreasonable stubbornness, stupidity, and thickheaded pride even from a loving spouse. I don’t know of any easy way to persuade people to consider someone else’s point-of-view. Otherwise, I would be the world’s greatest marriage counselor. I’m not.
You may find this interesting.
=> https://settledinheaven.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/mardivremprotected.pdf
The document is from Settled In Heaven Ministries, Robert R. Barkman’s website. He does a great job discussing what the Bible has to say about marriage, divorce, and remarriage. Years ago when read what document has to say about topic of “abuse”, I found it an eye-opener.
We had a lady in our Bible study who was upset because she said her husband was abusing her, but Bible required her to stay with him. I knew that was not true, but I struggled to explain it. Latter I read this document, and I wished I could have printed a copy and given it to that lady.
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Thanks Tom, I’ll check it out.
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Wow. So much is contained in your post, and in the two to which you linked, that I don’t know where to begin.
Some pastors are clueless and say pointless and even demeaning things to people in the midst of dreadful pain. It happens–they are as much sinful human beings as the rest of the congregation.
The other side of the same coin is that many husbands and wives want the pastor and the rest of the congregation to think that they have a normal and happy marriage. Often the pastor doesn’t hear about the problems–including outright abuse–until the news comes out that they are getting a divorce. By then any helpful thing he might have said is going to be too late to be appropriate.
A pastor cannot read minds. If he’s dealing with dozens of hurting people, sinners who need forgiveness and victims of sin who need comfort and strength, he’s going to miss seeing some of those problems. The pastor can only speak in generalities until he is told the specific problem that is happening. When that happens, I think that most pastors will respond with genuine compassion and with help from the Lord. J.
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“I think that most pastors will respond with genuine compassion and with help from the Lord.”
Amen, Salvageable. I really believe that. Often we can become so focused on the negative, it begins to distort our perceptions. While none of us are truly “good” on our own, most of us lack the energy to be downright maniacal and evil. 🙂
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That actually kind of annoyed me. I can’t think of a single woman that doesn’t know how to communicate. We’re kind of master communicators, especially when it comes to relationships.
Women like to communicate more, but that doesn’t necessarily make them effective communicators. By that logic someone who lives paycheck to paycheck is a master of money because she uses more money than the guy who saves.
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People who live paycheck to paycheck often are better with money. And women are effective communicators, men just have a tendency to dismiss us and believe we aren’t worth listening to. You can be the most effective communicator in the world but it does nothing when someone’s fingers are in their ears.
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And women are effective communicators, men just have a tendency to dismiss us and believe we aren’t worth listening to.
This tells me that you don’t really know anything about effective communication. People who communicate effectively are never dismissed, because (guess what) they communicate effectively. There have been charismatic women of force in history who have moved nations (like Joan of Arc) who weren’t dismissed. But feel free to continue blaming men for your shortcomings.
People who live paycheck to paycheck often are better with money.
That’s probably the most horrifying thing I’ve read on this blog so far.
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“There have been charismatic women of force in history who have moved nations (like Joan of Arc) who weren’t dismissed. ”
Ahh, so burned at the stake rather than dismissed? Joan of Arc may not be the best way to make your case about how well men listen to women.
“People who live paycheck to paycheck often are better with money.”
If you can figure out how to live off of very little, chances are good you are more financially astute then those who have a great deal of money and file for bankruptcy as a matter of routine.
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Ahh, so burned at the stake rather than dismissed? Joan of Arc may not be the best way to make your case about how well men listen to women.
And Mussolini wound up getting shot; will you now argue that he wasn’t a good communicator either? Maybe in your fantasy land charismatic folks all end up with happy endings but not so in the real world.
If you can figure out how to live off of very little, chances are good you are more financially astute then those who have a great deal of money and file for bankruptcy as a matter of routine.
If you’re financially astute then you shouldn’t be living paycheck to paycheck to begin with, even if you’re making minimum wage.
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Well surely you admit Mussolini lacked a certain charisma and had rather shabby communication skills? He was promptly hung in the public square!
However, you are comparing a rather evil dictator to Joan of Arc. What was Joan’s crime? She was female and she talked to God. She wasn’t just dismissed, she was burnt alive to keep her in her place.
“If you’re financially astute then you shouldn’t be living paycheck to paycheck to begin with, even if you’re making minimum wage.”
Your vast wisdom on the matter of poverty is duly noted. Also promptly forgiven and excused as nothing more than unwitting ignorance.
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Mussolini and Joan of Arc weren’t dismissed outright, which was the original argument until you started to split hairs. If men instinctively dismiss women as you said, then Joan wouldn’t have gotten a word in edgewise let alone move a nation. All I said is that Muso and Joan were charismatic speakers and were able to rouse people, my comparison began and ended there. I never said that they lived identical lives as you so foolishly assumed in an attempt to split hairs. Even if both of them ended up dead it doesn’t change the fact that they were good communicators who weren’t dismissed. Your original argument that men instinctively dismiss women is utter rubbish and even historically inaccurate.
And knowing your propensity for sophistry and hair splitting I should have used a more appropriate analogy for spending. I should have stated that saying that someone who CAN stay within a budget is less moneywise than someone who can’t simply because the latter spends more is ridiculous. There, now rationalize your way out of that one while I grab some popcorn.
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Dota, it is simply too silly to be in a thread about pastors and domestic violence, listening to some guy lecture me about Joan of Arc and Mussolini, while proudly declaring men do not dismiss what women have to say. To add an extra element of irony you accuse me of utter rubbish,splitting hairs, being historically inaccurate,and having a propensity for sophistry.
So, call me crazy, but unless you are a complete moron, you are going to automatically dismiss the words of anyone you have declared to be unworthy of listening to. That would be me. That would be due to your innate disrespect for women.
You are the one who has just proven the truth in my words, “men instinctively dismiss women” just as I said. Saying, “nuh uh because Joan of Arc,” while somewhat entertaining, does not really help your argument.
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“Yeah but I’m really a good guy” is classic narcissism. I can’t understand why it’s so rampant these days, but until pastors wise up the the fact that there are many men with well-disguised personality disorders, the old go-to about “you just need better communication” will continue to do damage. Right along with “you just need to submit to your husband more.”
Because they often don’t seem to remember the second part of that verse that says “Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” It seems to me that you can’t hold the wife up to the first part of that verse if you haven’t already held up the husband to the second. The sad fact is that if a woman is not truly loved, like, lay down his life (or his preferences, or his entitlements) kind of love, then she is not safe in submitting to that person.
Even if he “really is a good guy.”
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