POE is short for the Problem Of Evil, a frequent discussion within faith and within atheism, too. If God is good, why does He allow evil? If God is omnipotent, capable of intervening, than why does He let bad things happen?
My friend Tiribulus has written a post about “THE PROBLEM WITH THE “THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.” and I promised to respond. I don’t write about POE very often and Tiribulus does a good job of explaining why here, “Let’s start with the fact that God has no problems.”
Precisely. God doesn’t have a problem with evil, we do. God said, here be evil, don’t eat it. But we did anyway, so Jesus Christ, our Kinsman Redeemer, comes to rescue us, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” There we are, given a path to freedom, a bail out, a chance to be restored into right relationship with our Father, but what do so many of us continue to do anyway? Eat evil! Go figure.
A more romantic notion is that we are now spiritually back in that perfect garden, walking hand in hand with the Father in the cool of the evenings, free to live in something more akin to paradise, and yet for some reason many of us chose not to. There are wars, and rumors of war, defiance, rebellion, addiction, poverty, starvation, abuse, all man-made “evils,” choices, cause and effect, created by human decisions. It doesn’t have to be like that, there is a better way. In fact Christianity was once called exactly that, The Way. The path forward to help us with our POE, and that path is to be found in Jesus Christ.
God doesn’t have problems, we do.
God has given us freewill, at least within the aquarium walls, or the padded ones if you prefer a madhouse analogy. I never ask why God gave us free will and I must thank Rosemary Kennedy for that. Rosemary was a daughter who had mood swings, perhaps defiance, so her father decided to send her in for a lobotomy and things went awry. It’s a tragic tale, horrific in its implications, but coldly rational, because the “problem with evil,” so to speak, was instantly cured for Rosemary Kennedy.
God is good to us, merciful, respectful of our humanity. I sometimes quip about Adam, God caused him to fall into a deep sleep before taking out his rib. Thousands of years before we even thought to invent anesthesia, God was already treating us gently, being kind to our psyches.
We see through the glass darkly in this world, so we must also keep in mind that we have a limited ability to truly define good and evil. In the grand scheme of things, in those ripples in the pond, we can’t always see what impact our actions are having. We simply do not have the whole picture, an understanding of how one thing is going to play off another. It’s like a giant game of billiards or chess out in the world, where one can see how each move is going to go down, one building upon another, but we often lack that ability to see so clearly and into the distance. Some of the things I have labeled “bad” in my life have turned out to be the best things that ever happened to me. Some things I once thought were “good,”turned out to have not been so good at all.
So, not only do we ourselves have a problem with evil, we have a great deal of trouble even understanding the full breadth and depth of morality in the first place. In the absence of God, in the absence of the bible, where does our perception of good and evil even come from? Can you rebuke me for lying for example, without calling on biblical truth? Why is it wrong if it would serve me well? Can we not just as easily justify lying given the right circumstances, lying to the Nazis to save people for example?
Someone far smarter than me once said, “rationalize,” it means rational lies. The human capacity to rationalize just about anything is quite unprecedented.
As Tiribulus says, “God also is Himself the singularly perfect moral standard and supra-human Judge beyond which there is no appeal. That is moral, or right, which conforms to His being, nature and will as He has Himself revealed them in the ancient Christian scriptures and explicitly proclaimed in His law.”
Given our issues and struggles with good judgment and trouble even recognizing the nature of good and evil when we see it, a bit of intellectual humility is called for. We are not even qualified to be the judge here. As Tiribulus says, “God is not on trial. We are.”
All true.
Now we can get to the heat of the matter. Ha! I mean the heart of the matter. Tiribulus goes on to say, “Now we come to the heart of the matter. Right here is where sub-biblical non-reformed apologists are simply operating consistently with their view of God, and many reformed ones are operating quite inconsistently with what is supposed to be theirs.”
Bit harsh, wouldn’t you say? Just who are you calling a, “sub-biblical, non reformed, apologist operating inconsistently with the view that is supposed to be theirs?” All in good humor however, we shall forgive Tiribulus for his outright hostility and perpetual insults. Besides, if I haven’t made it quite clear in more than a dozens posts, I am actually an unapologetic, so clearly he is not speaking of me.
Here is the only place I actually begin to diverge from what he is saying, where I launch my objection and attempt to show him something he cannot see clearly. He says, “The problem with the problem of evil lies in the very fact that it’s seen by the church as an actual serious problem in the first place.”
This is true in a theological sense, it is true in a logical sense, it is true in a rational sense. It is true in the sense that God is not on trial here, that the “heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.” It is true in the sense that it asks the wrong question.
It is NOT true however, in a rhetorical, spiritual, or emotional sense. The church is right to address the issue, because it is a deeply ingrained heart matter, a huge stumbling block for those who have suffered tragedies, for those who have been abused, for people living in circumstances where it feels as if God has left them behind and forgotten them.
It is true in the sense that you cannot provide enough evidence to a non believer to make “belief in this God credible.” However, that is not really the question being asked at all. People are not really asking if belief in God is a credible belief, they are asking, is God good?
If someone is asking, is God good, that begs the question, what has happened to you that has led you to conclude the Creator of the universe either doesn’t exist or He hates you? Sadly, there is often some form of spiritual abuse lurking there too, abuse caused by Christ’s people.
We are flat-out called to testify to the goodness of God, “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you…” We are to be salt and light in the world. We are called to spread the good news. We are to be a light house on a rock, proclaiming the goodness of God. We are to be offering hope.
You theology can be flawless, but if it does not testify to the goodness of God, give a reason for the hope that is in you, and demonstrate to people the love of Jesus Christ, it is like a tool you have not yet taken out of the package. Or worse, a sword that serves only to confirm a bias.
You simply cannot address a heart matter by pulling out the sword of truth, slaying the patient, and declaring yep, my job here is done. I’ll sleep better tonight! Your patient is not a logical being just needing access to your superior salesmanship, he is a person needing to see the love of Jesus Christ in a world that does everything it can to snuff that Truth out.
newenglandsun said:
In St. Julian of Norwich’s writings on Revelations of Divine Love, she describes both evil and sin as nothingness. God cannot create any evil because God is actus purus and can only create existence. But sin leads us away from the Creator and hence away from ultimate existence. Actus purus (pure act). Hence, why eating the tree lead us to death since God is the source of life.
LikeLiked by 3 people
insanitybytes22 said:
Amen. I think that is a great analogy.
In more modern language, “evil thrives when good men do nothing.”
Darkness isn’t really a kind of light, it is the absence of Light. The farther we move away from God, the darker it becomes. He has given our void, form.
LikeLiked by 1 person
MJThompson said:
Regarding POE – may I suggest reading these Articles I’ve written on the subject – “Does God Create Evil?” @ mjthompsons.wordpress.com/2017/02/27/does-god-create-evil/
And “Explaining the Existence of Evil” @ mjthompsons.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/explaining-the-existence-of-evil/ – to add some fodder to the canon?
Truly, as you’ve concluded, everyone of us is ” a person needing to see the love of Jesus Christ in a world that does everything it can to snuff that Truth out”.
LikeLiked by 2 people
insanitybytes22 said:
Thanks MJ, I shall read them. Always trying to stir the pot, are you? 🙂
LikeLike
MJThompson said:
merely attempting to add some fodder to the canon – no insinuation that your pot needs any further stirring, it ALWAYS produces a perfectly balanced stew! LOL
LikeLiked by 2 people
insanitybytes22 said:
LOL! No problem, I love a stirred pot. I have now read both your articles and they are very good.
Perhaps this will show up as a more convenient hot link.
mjthompsons.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/explaining-the-existence-of-evil
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
I really doubt it would do any good for me to respond. I appreciate you taking the time to read the piece Gabrielle.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
Just as I doubt it does me any good to engage with someone who likes to simply scream “heretic” at me, and yet I persist just the same don’t I? Isn’t it true that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?
Be brave Tiribulus,I don’t bite, or at least if I do, I’ve had my shots. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
I don’t simply scream “heretic” at anybody Gabrielle. Ever. 🙂
I am also not the slightest bit intimidated by anybody because I live in the certainty of God Himself. Benefits of being supernaturally raised from death in Adam, given the mind of Christ and being made a partaker of the divine nature.
My reason for refusing to respond here is not because I’m blowing you off as an idiot. Au contraire. It’s because you’re a smart lady and as wrong as this is, it’s still very substantive and I would have to make a time commitment that I cannot honorably make in order to respect it properly. (I mean that btw)
Let’s do an insanitybites22 google hangout and we’ll all hangout together and actually get to know each other and talk. It’s a lot less time consuming and a lot more efficient way to communicate. Not to mention …. FUN 😀
Who’s with me?
Be brave, I don’t bite, or at least if I do, I’ve had my shots. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
LOL! Much appreciated Tiribulus.
I think if you would take the time to ponder what I am saying, you would conclude that it does not run contrary to scripture, or to any reformed doctrine at all.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
“I think if you would take the time to ponder what I am saying, you would conclude that it does not run contrary to scripture, or to any reformed doctrine at all.”
I believe at some key junctures, it actually does. I should say that it’s not wrong everywhere either. There are some good points in here too. The foundation is what’s flawed.
I’ll read it again though.
I’m not being sarcastic. I am actually in the middle of some stuff and time is at a premium.
I had to turn Arkanaten down too. I only did this piece for Ron because it addressed a topic that was on my agenda already.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“I had to turn Arkanaten down too.”
Oh now hold up! You simply cannot compare me to that potted meat product, aka spam! I am no Arkanaten! I am simply going to have to demand you prioritize me over him. 🙂
There is no rush, Tiribulus. This post will remain in the internet annals of time and the problem with evil is not likely to disappear anytime soon either.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
Ark is still one of the Lord’s imagine bearing critters, but no I am not comparing you to him in any other terms.
I was simply saying that my reasons for turning him down were along the same lines.Generally. What was asking for was a flat out project. This would be a pretty big too.
I won’t promise and possibly make myself a liar, but I’ll try.
In the meantime THIS is reformed theology. Not that neo-cal lite mush that is afflicting the church today.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
You are busy Tiribulus and I don’t wish to distract you from other projects, I am just trying to tell you that these are not the best words to use if you are trying to give people hope and speak to the of a God who loves them,
“Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation; therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church…”
As I have said, theologically sound but devoid of love. Does not treat the patient adequately. To follow such things up with a lecture about the “neo-cal lite mush” afflicting the church, also not necessarily helpful.
Give people a reason for the hope that is in you, tell them about the goodness of God, let them know He has not forgotten them. We need more people in the world doing that.
LikeLike
Tiribulus said:
THESE are not patients Gabrielle, They’re criminals. They’re problem is not what they’ve been through, It’s what they’ve done with it that’s the problem.
Introducing them to the god of “The Shack” for instance is to send them to hell. You may make them FEEL better for a little while with a false sense of security as they embrace a false god, false christ and false gospel, but you are helping them be damned, not saved. (WHAT IF THAT’S TRUE?)
Again, you define “love” by human distortions as I said in my piece. It is not loving to coddle someone and to present them with a damnable lie.
————————————
It reminds me of an old pastor I heard many many years ago talk about a dream he had one night where he was standing with the angel of the Lord on a small cliff overlooking the lake of fire. There was a burning man who was reaching down into the flames, pulling people up and throwing them back in.
He asked the angel:
“What is this man doing?”
The angel told him”
“He’s looking for the preacher who lied to him.”
———————————–
Your version of “love” damns people my dear. Show me one single instance where anybody told a sinner that Jesus loves them in the book of acts for instance. Just one.
All that said? My piece was not written to unbelievers. It was written to a church that thinks it knows better than God. I say yet again. None of this is unique to me. Spurgeon won multitudes and opened orphanages and fed the poor preaching EXACTLY what I’m saying, including his fierce denunciation (and I do mean FIERCE) of the “worldly amusements” of his day. To say nothing of the bloody, blasphemous pornographic filth today’s unfaithful church loves so much.
“if you are trying to give people hope….”
I’m trying to give God glory first. That’s the difference between us. You’re focused on them and I’m focused on Him.
See, for you, people are the apple and God is the watermelon. For me, it’s the other way around, just like the bible and those reformed standards I sent you.
I have no idea what it is exactly, but there are certain people I really REALLY want to get this even more than others. You have always been one of them. Maybe two 🙂
LikeLike
Tiribulus said:
See, for you, people are the apple and God is the watermelon. For me, it’s the other way around, just like the bible and those reformed standards I sent you
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“Your version of “love” damns people my dear.”
It does not because it reflects the same love Jesus Christ has shown me. “Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.” Luke 7:47
“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
“He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”
“I’m trying to give God glory first. That’s the difference between us. You’re focused on them and I’m focused on Him.”
If one is trying to give God the glory, than one must strive to represent Him properly! The parable of the talents,the bad servant, he is cast out because he falsely perceives his master as hard, unrelenting, “Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground.” Matthew 25
I am not trying to please people at all Tiribulus, I am trying to please God. God is love. It says that in the bible over and over again.To deny that is grievous. It is like missing the whole message.
If you are going to insist on perceiving people as only criminals, would you argue that point with the Great Physician Himself?
“When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance?”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
“If you are going to insist on perceiving people as only criminals, would you argue that point with the Great Physician Himself?”
“When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance?”
“Sick there is a synonymous metaphor for “criminal.” Sinners. See? He didn’t come for the pharisee, he came for the publican. Not the one who thinks he’s ok (maybe because he’s a victim?), but the who is certain he is a criminal. (wouldn’t even lift his eyes)
“The parable of the talents,the bad servant, he is cast out because he falsely perceives his master as hard, unrelenting,
“26 “But his MASTER ANSWERED and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.”(emphasis mine)
My beloved friend, you forgot verse 26. The master himself agreed with the slave’s assessment of his own character. Which character represents God’s blinding unbending holiness. Which holiness governs His love btw.
See you keep throwing LOVE LOVE LOVE at me as if I disagree. I’m the one who first cited 1st John 4:8 (…God IS love) here from the apostle of love himself.
The problem is that you have an emotionally driven, man centered, post modern subjective notion of “love” Gabrielle. You do. I don’t say that to be mean and hurtful. 😦 I promise you. It’s true.
“If one is trying to give God the glory, than one must strive to represent Him properly! “
EUREKA!!! That’s my whole point. Not only that, but you can’t really help people without representing Him properly either. Not by what HIS definition of helping them actually is.
I keep telling you. I have the whole of historic reformed orthodoxy behind me. Read those standards. Start HERE. 360 years ago. Please do.
I’m not making this up as I go. I’ve spent years hammering all this out and lo and behold look at that vast army of mighty men (and women) of God in history who agree with me (or I with them actually) and disagree with you. Not YOU personally, but this upside down post modern worldview that does in fact exalt man over God.
I want you to type on this page that you don’t believe I care about people. It’s BECAUSE I care about them that I put my unreliable feelings aside and give them God’s truth leaving the results to Him,.
THEIR OWN SIN is what is going to kill them for good. NOT what somebody else did to them as wicked and painful as that can be and if you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, I’ll compare war stories any day. I know people who have been through the sickest, most twisted and depraved abuse anybody ever heard of. Detroit didn’t get her reputation by accident. Please don’t take that as if I’m making light of what you deal with though. I don’t’ mean it like that.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed?????”
It’s a question, Tiribulus. It’s mockery. It is not a master agreeing with a servant’s assessment of him . Nor is it a commandment that somehow indicates we are to be like that master either.
“The problem is that you have an emotionally driven, man centered, post modern subjective notion of “love” Gabrielle.”
You would be surprised by how wrong you are. Actually you would laugh if you knew the truth, because I am about as far as one can get from emotionally driven, man centered, and post modern as you can get.
I hear your anger however, your deep seated frustration with the church, your outrage with the culture that has created such vulgarity, such misery. The deceptions,the layers and layers of lies that have allowed such things to happen. People unwilling to stand up for the truth.
I am not portraying people as innocent victims, but rather as collateral damage in a war they do not yet understand, as people who have survived a trauma and must be taught that God is good because they now doubt that.
God is good, you know,no matter what it looks like all around us. God remains our anchor to all that is Holy and good but some people no longer have the eyes to see that anymore and our job is to show them.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Julie (aka Cookie) said:
Ok so, I don’t even know where to begin—I read this before I stared cooking supper—mulled it over and I still don’t know where to begin…
firstly—love that Poe, quoth the raven nevermore, would be an an acronym for ‘problem of evil’…so apropos…
I almost hate to impose a thought in this diatribe between you two….
Bottom line—God is God, He is incapable of sin…He is without sin…and therefore, He who is without sin cannot be of sin.
Cannot know sin…
We on the other hand, are of sin.
As it goes back to what you said…”do not eat”, but eat we did….
The giant crevasse of sin separated God from us…so……
Jesus became the bridge…a bridge of love, forgiveness and yes, HOPE!
And as for evil…we live in a realm that is “governed” by the fallen light bearer.
He walks this earth..the same earth we also inhabit…
the avoidance is impossible…
as he relishes the inevitable meetings…
God is not a puppet master and we are not puppets….
freewill rules…and it does not always rule as it should…
But Hope remains a constant…even in our last breath…there is Hope!
Now, back to the dishes….
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
Thanks, Julie, well said. I’m not sorry for dragging you away from the dishes. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Julie (aka Cookie) said:
I’m not either IB 🙃
LikeLiked by 1 person
Tiribulus said:
… freewill rules …
Oh boy. Seriously? Do I have to even day anything Gabrielle? What god and what universe is this where man’s freewill rules?
Isaiah 46:
8“Remember this, and be assured;
Recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9
“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure:
Unless of course man has a different purpose?
LikeLike
Tiribulus said:
Time for a break Gabrielle. From when I first got saved:
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
That’s the spirit, Tiribulus. See, you’re almost human now…… 🙂
I’m not going to tackle your freewill comment because I don’t really disagree with it. In the context of physics, outside of time, God’s will, pre-ordination, those things make perfect sense to me and I have no disagreement with the concept.
I’m going to encourage you to subscribe to the biblical idea of panism however. That’s the idea that it will all pan out in the end and the good guys win. 🙂
LikeLike
Pingback: POE – disue
ColorStorm said:
Hey no fair ms bytes. I have been saying that for decades……….’God is not on trial, we are………….’ I could probably even find a few places on my blog……….Maybe I am being inadvertently quoted. Wouldn’t that be a hoot lol
But the problem of evil? Ha, where’s the problem? It does fine by itself and has a long shelf life. Anyway, good stuff
LikeLiked by 1 person
anon said:
“Can you rebuke me for lying for example, without calling on biblical truth? Why is it wrong if it would serve me well? Can we not just as easily justify lying given the right circumstances, lying to the Nazis to save people for example?”
Am I reading you wrong here? I hope you aren’t saying lying to the Nazis to save people would be an act of evil.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“Lying to the Nazis” is simply a frequent morality debate that many people recognize.
LikeLike
Mel Wild said:
Nothing like picking issues that have been debated for eons, IB! 🙂
“God doesn’t have problems, we do.”
This is absolutely true. We are the ones with the problem. We painted God’s face with Satan’s brush. We were ones with enmity against God. But, contrary to Calvin, we are NOT criminals, we are loved so much that Jesus gave Himself in order to rescue us because we are enslaved, trapped in an insidious system. We are deceived, enemies in our MIND (Col.1:21). So, I agree with you, IB. Both the perpetrator and the victim are victims in this construct.
Keep in mind that a lot of our atonement theories and doctrines are using metaphor in order to understand something that cannot be explained otherwise. But that’s all they are.
The metaphor of salvation being a forensic trial where we are criminals and God had to solve a legal issue wasn’t even taught before Anselm (11th Century), and even his view was more feudal, that we dishonored the King and the appropriate recompense must be given. Calvin ratcheted it up a notch and made it a criminal offense. Ironically, this reveals the rising rational, Enlightenment paradigm of his day. Most of these people who developed this view were lawyers. That’s how they understood it. The Eastern church calls it heresy, btw. The early church, almost without exception, called the cross a rescue mission.
God is not a lawyer or a feudal king; He is love in relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. Everything He does is through love with the heart to free us and restore us to relationship with and in Him.
On our apologetics, saying essentially…”God can do whatever He wants so shut up with your questions,” while technically true, is not an answer. It’s evasion. And it creates needless cognitive dissonance in the follower rather than consistent thought about the character and nature of God. It’s like a parent saying, “because I said so.” It may work on a small child who has no choice, but it will never ever answer thinking people’s legitimate questions. This is why it won’t go away. It might have played well 150 years ago, it doesn’t work now. Sceptics will just call it indoctrination.
What I’m trying to say here, which I think you’re saying, is that we need better answers to the reality that God doesn’t have the problem.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
Lawyers, seriously? Cue a dozen lawyer jokes! I never paid attention to that fact, but lawyer jokes do help to explain things. 🙂
Your comment is well said and very timely too. I kid you not, I was just trying to explain to someone why, “God can do whatever He wants so shut up with your questions,” may be theologically true, but it is not an effective form of either evangelism or interpersonal relationships. I’ll even grant that there really is a time to shut up and listen, but as a response to people asking “is God good,” it’s a totally appalling answer.
And how is God supposed to feel about such things? I would not be happy if someone failed to proclaim my goodness and instead declared, “God can do whatever He wants.” Well of course He can, but there is goodness there, too. We need to proclaim His goodness.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mel Wild said:
This is why a lot of Christians say “God is good” but in their heart of hearts they wonder and keep their distance, relationally. It doesn’t answer the skeptics and it doesn’t endear the believer to fully embrace a God who just may be a monster.
LikeLiked by 1 person