Who is Mary Kassian? I don’t really know, I just know she wrote a good blog post differentiating abuse from authority at GirlsGoneWise called, “Does a husband have the authority?” She says, “I believe that the Bible teaches that a husband’s position as head of the home does not give him the right to rule, but rather the responsibility to provide loving oversight. A husband is not imparted with privilege; he is entrusted with obligation—the obligation to love, cherish and shepherd, in emulation of Christ.”
Fabulous! She than proceeds to explain, “Culture upholds authority as the right to rule and lord it over others, but Scripture paints a radically different picture about the true nature of authority.”
That is one of my favorite issues, the way the world defines things (read lies), versus the way God defines things. God often defines things in a way that can feel very backwards, but that is only because we are so used to hanging upside down. So I see authority the way God does and I picture safety, protection, responsibility, power within. The world teaches us authority is about having external power over others, which can very quickly translate into abuse. One of my favorite sayings is,”he who is under authority, has authority.” That is because when you are under authority yourself, your power is internalized. Bullies who rely on power over others are actually weak, insecure, powerless people who must abuse others to feel significant.
So naturally Dalrock, who never met a Christian woman he didn’t want to attack and accuse, nor an abuse he didn’t want to attempt to twist scripture to defend, tries to mock and ridicule Mary Kassian in a post called, Who is she teaching?
Sigh. Dalrock knows perfectly well that the things Mary was declaring are not okay are some pretty obvious signs of abuse. Does a husband have the right to take his wife’s money, car keys, phone, personal possessions and lock her out of the house? Like duh, no, those are all the actions of a bully. That is abuse. That is the behavior of a weak and insecure man with issues around power and control. A bully that makes men look small minded and weak. Men are called to love their wives like Christ loved the church.
Dalrock doesn’t like the Deluth model of domestic violence, the power and control wheel, the continuum of violence. Here’s the deal however, until enough Christian men within the church lead on domestic violence issues, the secular world holds the moral upper hand and will continue to be the far superior approach for those seeking help. I would like to see that change. It won’t change however, until the Dalrockians are purged from our midst.
Andy Oldham said:
Satan will forever keep this controversy going. If we read James 4:8 we see that if we draw close to God, He will draw close to us. Now, it’s easy to understand that if you and God are close, and growing closer, that He will reveal what He expects from both the Husnand and the wife, including that of the husband giving his life, as did Jesus, for his bride.
LikeLiked by 2 people
insanitybytes22 said:
True. Satan will keep this controversy going. I just think it is within our power to kick him out of our churches. Not the people he infects, but the thinking and attitudes he promotes.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pingback: Things I have read on the internet – 46 | clydeherrin
irtfyblog said:
“Does a husband have the right to take his wife’s money, car keys, phone, personal possessions and lock her out of the house? Like duh, no, those are all the actions of a bully. That is abuse. That is the behavior of a weak and insecure man with issues around power and control. A bully that makes men look small minded and weak. Men are called to love their wives like Christ loved the church.”
Let’s change that up a bit…
“Does a wife have the right to take her husband’s money, car keys, phone, personal possessions and lock him out of the house? Like duh, no, those are all the actions of a bully. That is abuse. That is the behavior of a weak and insecure woman with issues around power and control. A bully that makes women look small minded and weak. Women are called to love and respect their husbands.”
😀
LikeLiked by 2 people
insanitybytes22 said:
There’s a difference here though, irtfy. I’ve never seen women use scripture to try to justify abusing their husbands. I’m not saying it never happens, just that I’ve never seen it. However, we do have men using scripture to excuse and justify husbands abusing wives, which then leads women to conclude that if this is how Christ loved the church, than I want nothing to do with Christ either.
So when we stand before God, I have a feeling He’s not going to be angry at the people who equated Christ with abuse, but rather with the teachers who perverted scripture and falsely lead people to that conclusion.
LikeLiked by 2 people
OKRickety said:
” I’ve never seen women use scripture to try to justify abusing their husbands. I’m not saying it never happens, just that I’ve never seen it.”
You say you’ve never seen women use scripture to justify abusing their husbands. Perhaps they only do it in private. Or, more likely, women do this but you don’t recognize that the women really are abusing their husbands and trying to justify it with scripture. Instead you believe that the wives are simply demonstrating tough love to their husbands.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
Why don’t you find me a blog post or a sermon or some kind of article that suggests scripture gives you all the moral authority you need to abuse your husband? Do that an I’ll consider your words, but in the absence of any evidence I have to dismiss your claims.
LikeLike
irtfyblog said:
I got no arguments, IB. Just playing devil’s advocate. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
OKRickety said:
“Why don’t you find me a blog post or a sermon or some kind of article that suggests scripture gives you all the moral authority you need to abuse your husband? Do that an I’ll consider your words, but in the absence of any evidence I have to dismiss your claims.”
It wasn’t as easy as I thought it would be, but I’ll get to it shortly.
But first, it’s interesting to compare the difference in justification according to sex. Some men incorrectly try to use scripture to justify abuse of their wives. Women, on the other hand, seem to primarily justify their abuse of their husbands according to the world’s standards. In other words, men try to use scripture to justify their abuse, but women don’t seem to care what God teaches but justify it on other grounds. Neither one is right. This points out the importance of scripture being correctly taught, understood, and applied.
I think it is likely that you were thinking of abuse in the form of physical abuse. However, abuse takes a wide variety of forms. One example of emotional abuse is rejection where the abuser ignores, withholds affections, puts down your ideas, and withholds sex.
Dr. Albert Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, certainly appears to be a proponent of the idea of wives withholding sex from their husbands when the wives believe the husbands are not loving them as fully and completely as commanded in Ephesians 5. In this column, he states:
The concept of a husband earning his conjugal rights runs counter to what Paul states in 1 Corinthians 7:3 ([ESV] The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.) No prerequisite conditions are given.
Note: That article seems to avoid scripture references, but is basically repeated with some scripture in this excerpt from his book R. Albert Mohler, Jr., Desire and Deceit: The Real Cost of Sexual Tolerance, pg.38. Of special interest is the first comment by “anonymous”, a woman who seems to strongly agree with the concept.
It would be very easy to suppose that many Christian wives believe in this concept and abuse their husbands by withholding sex because the wives deem that their husbands are failing their Christian duty. Certainly, there is strong evidence that large numbers of Christian marriages are sexless or low-sex.
By the way, I wonder what the response would be if someone were to propose that Christian husbands should withhold sex from their wives because their wives were insufficiently submissive or respectful.
In the end, though, I am inclined to think that Christian wives occasionally justify abuse of their husbands on their understanding of scripture, but most often it is instead done on the basis of what the world teaches.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
Well, I really believe Mohler’s words were taken out of context, infused with hyperbole, and passed around the ‘sphere for the purpose of creating hysteria. Take Mohler’s statement with a bit more context: “Consider the fact that a woman has every right to expect that her husband will earn access to the marriage bed.… Therefore, when I say that a husband must regularly “earn” privileged access to the marital bed, I mean that a husband owes his wife the confidence, affection and emotional support that would lead her to freely give herself to her husband in the act of sex.”
That is ten times better than the notion, “I can treat my wife anyway I want and she has to have sex with me because…bible.” That is one of the most appalling things I’ve ever heard. It’s demeaning to men, to women, and probably to God Himself who designed sex to be enthusiastically embraced by couples, not forced onto reluctant wives by arrogant men who misunderstand the Apostle Paul’s words just like they do Mohler’s.
LikeLike
OKRickety said:
First, I agree that Christian husbands are told how to treat their wives. Specifically, to love them as Christ loved the church, rather than “I can treat my wife anyway I want”. A husband’s failure to love his wife is contrary to scriptural command (Eph. 5:25).
The fact that some men may have taken Mohler’s words out of context leads to the equally probable likelihood that some women may also have done so, and chosen to withhold sex because they do not believe their husbands have “earned” the right, that is, the husbands are not loving them properly (providing what they are owed).
I will presume that the husband providing “confidence, affection, and emotional support” is deemed to be an essential part of obeying the command in Eph. 5:25,33 to love his wife, and this is the basis of the debt to the wife.
The corollary is that a Christian wife is to be subject to her husband and respect him (Eph. 5:24, 33), and this is the basis of her debt to him. Using this and Mohler’s logic, it would be correct to say that a wife must earn access to the husband wanting to meet her needs (e.g. emotional support). If this sounds absurd to you, as it should, then there is a problem with the logic.
The commands to husbands to love their wives, and to wives to submit to their husbands are both unconditional. That is, there is no requirement that one spouse must obey God’s command before the other is required to obey. This is contrary to today’s usual attitude that I’ll only do my part if you do your part first, that is, focusing on you owe me.
Marriages will continue to struggle as long as the spouses continue to be selfish. They will only flourish if both spouses follow God’s commands for the marriage relationship. Note that both must do this. It is wrong to only look at the faults of husbands and ignore the faults of wives, and vice versa.
[Eph. 5:24-25, 33 NASB] 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, … 33 Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
You probably don’t realize this, so I suppose it isn’t your fault, but I probably receive about 20-30 references to Ephesians 5 every single week. Seriously, you would not believe the number of people who presume I’ve never heard of it. Sometimes I want to say, do you people not realize that there was an entire book written around those words? Are you aware that one cannot really build a faith around the words “wives submit?” That life has depth and breadth, that faith is profound and deep, that scripture must be revealed to one precept by precept?
“The fact that some men may have taken Mohler’s words out of context leads to the equally probable likelihood that some women may also have done so…”
No, it does not. All things are not equal. One does not equate the other. The fact that some lunkheads try to use scripture to justify their right to demand their wife have sex with them simply because they feel entitled, does not necessarily equate to the rather childish defense, “well I’m sure women do it too.” Baloney!
If you wish to be a grown up here, I am interested in promoting healthy sexuality in marriage. Yes, I believe spouses are obliged to have sex with one another, but it should never be reduced to a biblical mandate or a forced chore simply because some moron can not wrap his brain around the fact that women are actual people entitled to enjoy sex just as much as anyone else. Therefore if there is a sexual problem it is likely roted in a valid complaint and should never be dismissed as simple female rebellion or some kind of sin against God Himself.
Do some wives with hold sex to punish men? Yes. Are wives supposed to just submit and completely ignore their own desires and needs just to satisfy some lunkhead’s false interpretation of scripture? Hell no.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
I’m going to throw you for a loop here, IB, and question something I wish I didn’t have to question. In the end we may not actually disagree but I need to bring it up anyway. You said, “…Are wives supposed to just submit and co olé tell ignore their own desires and needs just to satisfy some lunkhead’s false interpretation of scripture? Hell no.”
I’d love to agree. However I think our angst about how wrong it sounds may need to be 100% directed at the lunkhead’s abuser being wrong, choosing to abuse his wife and not directed at telling women to they no longer have an obligation to him because he’s in sin.
Yes, men warp scripture to support men mistreating their wives emotionally and sexually which they do frequently because as is mentioned in Job 31 they hide their sin deep within their hearts. They refuse to understand that when their wives experience feelings they’ve been commanded by God to care and be understanding rather than t women are being bad. They refuse to submit to God’s will in that way, millions of them. They refuse to acknowledge the basic fact that a man who is mistreating his wife emotionally is IS inherently and simultaneously mistreating her sexually, due to her nature. Those men, if they have godly wives, are training them to work against their own nature and try to be good with “just sex” minus being safe and being loved.
But as you and I have frequently said, it’s all on a continuum and ALL of us fail to love well enough; ALL of us hurt our spouses. It’s not usualky a cause for said spouse to toss their own obligations out the window, my ex-monster certainly trained me to that and now I’m not sure if I’ll ever be whole and healthy enough to be good to a good man should I ever encounter such a rare creature. I like sex and I am glad for all the growth and learning even if I’m not really all the ways there to ever be glad for the bad way some of it came to me or the end results of the sins of the abuser. But I am glad I chose love whenever I could. I certainly failed plenty over so many years. But I learned and I grew and I chose sacrificial love despite his never choosing it from his end. And I’m glad I did. I’m glad I didn’t let him. Destroy me emotionally and spiritually, though he’s certainly still trying.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
No loops, scratchmom. There is a lot of value on keeping your eyes on Christ and doing the right thing regardless of some elses behavior. Just the same women are actual people and there are some men who seem to forget this. God did not design women to simply suffer in order to placate some man’s ego.Submission is actually not about men at all, nor is it about guaranteeing them sexual access. It is about pleasing God.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
Well said, IB. I figured there was no real disagreement. 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Fromscratchmom said:
The man who demands sex based on Biblical submission is spiritually, emotionally and sexually mistreating his wife. But any man or woman who understands the Biblical teaching that each owns the other’s body ought to be capable of offering sexual pleasure even the ones who have to walk through fires of abuse and pain and emotional breakdown and sin and repentance and leaning on God to figure out her to get there. When there are two who truly understand and care about that teaching and about teachings on love, it will be a beautiful thing all around.
LikeLiked by 1 person
OKRickety said:
Consider these items:
1. You often express thoughts about how men and women should behave in marriage.
2. The vast majority of Americans are, will be, or have been married.
3. Marriage is the most significant personal relationship most people will ever have.
4. Ephesians 5 is one of the Biblical passages that speaks directly about how married Christians should behave in their marriage.
Based on these items, it does not surprise me that you would receive many references to Ephesians 5. In contrast, it’s not surprising that you probably never get any references to 1 Cor. 10 regarding eating meat at an unbeliever’s house. People will pay more attention to the scriptures that have more relevance to their own personal lives.
There might be something to be learned from your statement that “you would not believe the number of people who presume I’ve never heard of it.” Based on my experience with your blog, it seems this may result from a failure to communicate well both the importance of the teachings in that passage, and the responsibilities for both husbands and wives that are contained in it.
You seem to want to downplay its significance. If all married Christians followed this passage better, then all Christian marriages would improve, all Christian families and churches would improve, and society would improve. In other words, the faith of Christians would be shown by their actions in their marriages and the world would notice.
[James 2:17 NIV] 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
LikeLike
OKRickety said:
IB,
The fact that some men reacted to Mohler’s words does not prove or disprove that some women did not take his words out of context. I think there is little doubt that Mohler’s words had a much larger audience than the Red Pill blogs who took issue with his statement about earning the right to the marriage bed. I don’t know how many read his blog or his books, but with some 15 million Southern Baptists, it’s probably quite a few. The same concept was in the Focus on the Family blog where Greg Smalley states “Husbands, instead of complaining that your wife isn’t interested in sex, you need to earn your way into the marriage bed.”, and provides a long list of ways a husband can do this. I rather expect that this has been viewed by a large number, too.
You may disagree with my premise that some women have likely interpreted Mohler’s words to mean their husbands have to earn sex, but I did not provide this premise as a defense for husbands misusing scripture to justify demanding sex.
“If you wish to be a grown up here, ….”
Snarky. Who is being childish?
LikeLike
OKRickety said:
It’s often interesting to consider statements with the gender switched.
Myself, I would have replaced “Men are called to love their wives like Christ loved the church.” with “Women are called to submit to their own husbands as unto the Lord.” per Ephesians 5:22.
Note: Respect is also correct per Ephesians 5:33 (NIV) “However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
I’d prefer if you’d either post a link showing how scripture is being used to justify wives abusing husband?
Or else you could explain to us why you agree that Mary Kassian is worthless piece of crap who’s father is satan because that is what those Dalrockian “men” are saying and I find that totally deplorable. Here we have a woman who supports marriage, supports scripture, speaks honestly about authority, but than we have bunch of Christian men outright abusing her. Why? I going to drop a hint here, she’s not the one with the problem.
LikeLike
fromscratchmom said:
The thing here is that God doesn’t just switch it up to pull attention off of men’s responsibilities and possible flaws they may need to improve on and condemn women. He teaches all things. He teaches all people, men included. There is nothing wrong with IB or with the other blogger speaking as God speaks. But there does appear to be an issue when this comes up and people won’t hear it or allow for it because what about the other side? What about how they have to submit? What about that men really do have authority? And women do really sin. Of course men do have authority. That is why they also have such a high and important obligation. And of course women do sin. And they too need to learn and improve and hold themselves accountable.
I get that some of you have a lot of experience with women sinning. I really do. I see the numbers of how many women in the world around me want divorces. I honestly do not see it much in any church I have ever associated with but I do see it in my neighborhood, the grocery store and a million other places that people say they claim the name of Christ and that women should never stay in a marriage they are unhappy in thus encouraging women to sin in many circumstances. The person who leaves without cause is wrong in God’s eyes, whether that is a man or a woman. Similarly the person who stays which is right but never owns their own faults and improves and never helps repair damage they have done is also wrong in God’s eyes and not in anyway justified by the faults of the other person or by having been given authority that was never meant to justify mistreatment or not caring enough to live with a wife in an understanding manner as God calls it.
If your wife has sinned and you feel you were perfect in loving, understanding, and leadership then that’s great for you and horrible for you at the same time. But otherwise you still have the responsibility to do better towards her and to own that which God put on you to be both a leader and a gentle and loving husband who cares about her hormonal issues and her emotions and her needs and even to want to try to get her to be able to improve not for your sake but for her own soul if those things seem to be so out of control that she needs rebuke or an asylum or divine intervention. Speak as the Bible speaks and not just the parts of the Bible that speak to your heart over what you have suffered.
LikeLiked by 1 person
irtfyblog said:
IB, There are actually a lot of articles on the internet about men who are abused by their wives/girlfriends. Granted, most women don’t use scripture to support their behavior, but then again…they have the government and when you have the government behind you, who needs the Bible for justification of your actions?
I did find this article and thought I would share it: http://marriagemissions.com/husband-abuse-can-a-wife-abuse-her-husband/
Though the article isn’t about wives using scripture to abuse their husbands, it does give some very interesting insight into why most men don’t discuss the matter of being abused by their wives/girlfriends. It also references a number of other blog posts and articles that deal with the matter as a whole.
I would also like to say that I’m sorry if my comment upset you or led you to believe that I was mocking or attacking you or Mary Kassian. I am deeply sorry and I did not intend for that; but I did intend to shed light on the fact that there’s always another side of the coin that seems to get downplayed…in this case…abusive wives/girlfriends.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
Irtfy, no apologies needed, I always appreciate your insights.
You make a good point about how women often have the secular system to back them up. The thing is, when the secular system abuses you, you lose faith in the system. When the church abuses you, you often lose faith in Christ Himself.
LikeLiked by 2 people
OKRickety said:
IB,
“Or else you could explain to us why you agree that Mary Kassian is worthless piece of crap who’s father is satan ….”
Your implication is that I agree with this. I don’t, and I’m quite certain that you will not find anything substantive to support that implication. (My belief that Dalrock is far less evil than you believe does not qualify.)
I wish you would stop assuming that I necessarily believe the same as Dalrock or any of the commenters on his blog. For whatever it’s worth, I perceive Dalrock’s focus on Kassian to be rather a “witch hunt”. My original interest in his blog was based on his posts looking at statistics to determine trends and factual information, rather than accepting long-held statements to be truth. Unfortunately, he only rarely does that today.
LikeLike
dpmonahan said:
If a husband has authority, a wife has a moral duty to obey him. There are things Dalorck is wrong about, but he isn’t wrong to point out that most contemporary Christian preaching is never mentions that.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
So you’re saying scripture approves of these things? “Does a husband have the right to take his wife’s money, car keys, phone, personal possessions and lock her out of the house?”
LikeLike
dpmonahan said:
No.
LikeLiked by 1 person
altruistico said:
There are many types o abuse. Some abuse can be subtle. Emotional abuse can be difficult to detect because, on the surface, there is no observable evidence of the abuse, but that doesn’t mean the effects are any less painful or destructive. Examples of emotional abuse include verbal attacks, criticism, favoritism, manipulation, deceit, threats, and withheld expressions of love. I think the best manner of resolving this dilemma is to ask what the Bible says about abuse @ http://wp.me/p26QNa-3uD
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless and keep you always.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
Now there’s a sensible answer. Amen, let’s ask what the bible says 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Fromscratchmom said:
Thank-you for the link! Great stuff, Altruistico. I wholeheartedly agree that all abuse to some extent because we all fall short and fail to love as we should. I’m uplifted by reading your words.
LikeLiked by 2 people
altruistico said:
I thank you so very much for your kind words and appreciation. The praise, however, for the words and uplifting, goes to God.
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless you and keep you.
Yours in Christ;
Michael
LikeLiked by 1 person
A dad said:
Memi, more from me tonight after work, on kicking godlessness out of this topic!👍
It is disturbing to know where the deceit is hiding !
Plus, some related hood news on my end!
LikeLiked by 1 person
OKRickety said:
I’m glad you have good news. For just a moment, I wondered what news you had from the hood. 🙂
LikeLike
"A" dad said:
Rick, my fingers work better on my lap top than they do on my cell phone! I did have good news, as opposed to ‘hood news!
; – )
Not that you really need to see it, but per my longer post below, “A cry for Justice” will twist the Word to their own ends as bad as one would have the misfortune to see, if you went to their blog. If you mention that their favorite “expert” Lundy Bancroft, is a charlatan and cult founder, they will block you! ; – )
If you have been in a tough gender / marital struggle as I have, I hope you find support here, and where ever you may be!
I do think our host here, understands the multiple sides of gender issues, and speaks to all of them as she is led, with the point of view she has been Graced with. (same for me and you!)
Since I am not a gal, I do appreciate hearing the feminine points of view expressed on this blog by many women. They are encouraging, and many times express a Word grounded view.
It’s almost like fellowship! ; – )
LikeLiked by 1 person
Eric said:
I agree that the Gamecocks’ use of Scripture to justify abuse is disgusting—but it’s also typical. Like most cults, they use religion to excuse their crimes.
But that being said, I do have an issue with domestic violence. It’s difficult to feel much sympathy for women who are victims of DV when they constantly, willfully and voluntarily CHOOSE to be with men like that. I tend to agree that churches need the DV issue different—maybe what they should do, though, is focus on teaching women to stay away from scumbags.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
I’m all for teaching women how to avoid the lunkheads, helping them to discover what it is within them that draws them towards such men. Unfortunately I think we’ve got some real lunkheads within our churches teaching some bad things. It is one extreme or the other, so some are promoting same sex marriage, while others like the Dalrockians are promoting outright abuse of women. That IS women’s spiritual leadership, that is who we learn from. Given those teachings, it is no wonder to me that women become so lost, so broken and confused.
I’ve said this before, women stay with abusers not because they’re stupid, not because they choose to, but because women have a deep and abiding love for men that allows us to write narratives around their behavior. ‘Sperians call this hamstering. Our brains will work a million miles a minute to deny, excuse,and cover up abuse like you wouldn’t believe.
LikeLike
Eric said:
Well let’s address this. St. Paul says somewhere something to the effect: “Do you know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Should I join the Temple of God to a harlot? God forbid!”
This applies to women too. If she chooses to join a brutal abusive thug, how is she different from a man who is a sexual libertine?
Christ says: “Do not cast your pearls before swine, nor give that which is holy to dogs.”
So again, how is it a Godly action for a woman to throw away her gifts (like her fidelity and motherhood) on males who dishonor them?
What you both say would be true IF it were also true that women had no other choice but to love and marry bad men. But the fact is—and I’ve seen it often—that a typical single woman will have a dozen or so ‘nice guys’ among her acquaintances—all of whom are courting her; and she’ll invariably ignore every one of them and fly off into bed with the first scumbag she meets.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“If she chooses to join a brutal abusive thug, how is she different from a man who is a sexual libertine?”
I don’t think she really is any different at all, but then again I can totally empathize with the pick up artists, too. I think they’re sinful, immoral,doing harm to themselves and others, but I can understand how one could become lost, pouring women into the abyss of your soul. Women do a similar thing when they hook up with abusive men. As you said, it’s not Godly to throw away your gifts, but if we were all capable of seeing ourselves as as God sees us, the world would look a whole lot different.
“What you both say would be true IF it were also true that women had no other choice but to love and marry bad men.”
True, but aren’t all men and women basically “bad” and in need of redemption? Salvation? I think what’s different here is that women are compelled to love men. We don’t need a scripture reminding us to love our husbands. We got the love part down, even to our own detriment. You can’t really tell women to just stop loving bad men. We’re practically programmed to do exactly that. So if you are trying to stop domestic violence you have to teach her she has worth and value and you have to teach men they are not allowed to abuse those who have worth and value.
Even Heartise and Roosh have used the bible to try to justify their treatment of women. So, with absent fathers, thugs in the world, her own biology, and pickup artists teaching the bible, how is she supposed to learn that she has worth and value?
LikeLike
Eric said:
Because there are lots of men who are also telling them that they have worth and value and display it through their actions. Not that good men’s words or actions actually matter to anybody anymore, but such men are available.
What’s especially bad is, that most women SAY that they want a man who’s traditional, romantic, treats them with respect, and is faithful—but then reject anybody who actually offers them that and run after lowlifes who give them no respect or love and are incapable of providing for them. One of the things that PUAs always claim as a final argument is that ‘it works’. Unfortunately, that’s largely true.
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
Okay Eric, but how we perceive things is everything. So of course “it works” and those PUA’s are right. Women are sexual beings having sexual attraction cues, easily exploited. So are men! It is ridiculously easy to get a man’s attention. From that data we can conclude that men are stupid and they only want one thing, or we can try to understand how God designed us and celebrate how we are all wonderfully and fearfully made. So, I do not perceive the data and conclude that “men are stupid and only want one thing.” That is a worldly perception, one we are sold constantly. The ‘spherian version of that lie is, “women are stupid, they only want one thing, and so they chase thugs.”
Those are lies, those are exaggerations, distortions that take slight biological truths and blow them up into this carnal ideology that declares people are completely defined and ruled by our sexuality. Baloney.
And another thing, most of the men whining about how all the good women reject them because they aren’t thugs are often so busy rejecting all the nice girls on account of the fact that they’re too fat, not pretty enough, too thin, too stupid, too smart, all foolish little ways men have of denying that who they are often the most attracted to themselves are not nice girls, but those every same bad girls out chasing thugs!
So the women line up declaring, “woe is me, where have all the nice guys gone” and the men line up declaring “women just don’t like nice guys.” My first question is, what kind of fools walk about declaring themselves so nice, so special, so perfect, they’re actually entitled to someone else as gloriously good as they allegedly are? No wonder those two groups can never come together, they’re so unbelievably in love with their ownselves, there isn’t room for anyone else.
LikeLike
Eric said:
These are fair points, especially the next to the last paragraph—yes I confess many of us men have been guilty of that at times. But in the last paragraph; I don’t think that a lot of male resentment is driven by a sense of entitlement (although among Gamers/PUAs it is) as much of a sense of unfairness.
The male nature is competitive; but among civilized and mature men there’s a certain unspoken understanding that, whether competing for a female, or a promotion, or a sporting event—or even in war, of ‘may the best man win.’ If you fail in your objective, you graciously accept that another man won and try to do better next time. The problem comes when the better man doesn’t win—but the prizes go to someone who shouldn’t even have been in the competition in the first place. The tendency of men in this situation is NOT to feel as though they’ve done their best and been bettered; their tendency is to feel like they’ve done their best and been cheated.
I don’t think that a lot of women fully understand this aspect of the male nature or how men see the difference in the two things. Mature men don’t resent losing a fair fight—but they DO resent losing an unfair fight. That’s biological rooted, too, I think. A man has to be a protector, provider, or leader and someone who usurps that role by dishonest means is telling men that their efforts, achievements, and intentions are not valued. Losing a fair fight, a man still has value as a subordinate. In an unfair fight, he’s just been told he has no value at all; and neither do any other men whom he respects.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
“Losing a fair fight, a man still has value as a subordinate. In an unfair fight, he’s just been told he has no value at all..”
Hmm, I wonder Eric, can you see how that is women’s lot pretty much all of the time? Never mind the West, but look about the ME and how many women are beheaded and attacked with acid and assorted other atrocities. You at least understand the concept of a fair fight or of being valued based on your own merit. Most women don’t have that at all, certainly not in a physical fight, and often not when it comes to merit either. You can read the comments at Dalrocks to get a feel for how devalued, despised women really are in some quarters. Given those conditions we soon learn that the game is simply rigged against us.
You said, “The tendency of men in this situation is NOT to feel as though they’ve done their best and been bettered; their tendency is to feel like they’ve done their best and been cheated.”
Yeah, not to put too fine of a point on it, but who is married, following scripture, praising the nature of men? Women like Mary and I. Does that make us valuable in Dalrockian eyes? No, I believe someone said something about Mary’s father being satan.
The truth of the matter is that women cannot ever comply enough, we cannot ever submit enough, we can never do anything to attain value in the eyes of such men.
You yourself said “may the best man win.” Kind of ironic, but even when it comes to winning at being a woman, the best man really was a man, Caitlyn Jenner. Women aren’t even allowed to win at being women.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
This model of its women’s faults that they get abused and women choose to be abused by choosing abusers angers me greatly. It’s no better than anything else that comes out of feminism or that leads to feminism…or any other worldly philosophy. The Bible teaches us to respect and submit. It teaches to forgive 7 X 70 times. When the abuse is so obvious and heinous and physical that nearly anyone can see the severity and the wrongness people usually still don’t care to to do a single blessed thing to help much less get this guy thrown in jail or an asylum but they put all the weight of total understanding and control on the victim. And when it’s less obvious (usually because it’s not physical) then people feel even a million times more justified in that stance while at the same time preaching and pushing and preaching and pushing that women need to respect their husbands no matter what, respect means a wife should never say anything against a husband, husbands will be good to women if women get better at their role, women are too emotional, “we all have godly husbands here; We need a better attitude to treat our husbands better here.” and a million variations on a fallacious theme.p that proves that most of us refuse to understand what respect really means in e context of imperfect human authority.
What is wrong with us that our churches we could choose to participate within this culture offer us the choice between not respecting our husbands at all (and they support divorce at the drop of a hat/never call for obeying God’s teaching about submission) or being abused and accepting total responsibility for it…but there’s nowhere you can go where people can reasonably teach as God teaches that men need to be godly leaders and what that really means without hearing the backlash of somehow one way or another that it’s really all about women owning and being responsible for everything and it’s never about men having to actually be good at being husbands?! Why is that such an impossible concept in this country that men need to live with their wives and understand them and be GOOD to them even when it’s challenging?! Just be a man and exist in that manliness and she has to respect you for your existence and your genitalia or get a clue and dump your sorry butt. I’ve got news for all the godly-I-deserve-respec-type-men who constantly justify men’s traditional role AND men’s modern roles in the culture and speak out against weak or meek women who forgive and against strong women who walk away from unloving men and against American women in general…
Women are not inherently evil and nasty nor are they inherently stupid and deserving of any evil that they are willing to not assert dominance over to control the faults of the men who committed to loving them until death parts them. They live an a fallen world and are trying to navigate it and draw closer to God and figure out how to interact with this fallen world (and not sin in reaction to it) and that includes the men in this world. And none of you are perfect. Women are supported and loved by Jesus Christ and they are asked to respect you as an authority and submit when there is difficulty or conflict. But not a single one of us women has ever been married to Jesus Christ. Why is the model of marriage where men are called to be head and to love as Christ loves the church not staggering to men in its profound implications?! Why is it totally unacceptable to talk about the weight of that responsibility and how it might play out in a broken world in a marriage between two imperfect people?! Why does it always fall back down to either justifying abuse and blaming women for it and condemning all women one way or another that they are either arrogant and unsubmissive and you just need a foreign woman whose easier to put up with or to they ought to have thrown you on the trash heap because you were clearly a Neanderthal?! No! No! No! No! No! God tells us to live with your imperfect selves and forgive you and submit to you. And he tells YOU to live with our imperfect selves and be careful of our differences from your way of thinking and feeling and operating and to lift us up and love us and help us get to heaven!
Men are not divided up into all the perfect “nice-guy” guys who deserve better women and the Neanderthals who deserve to be sad and alone. Men are just humans too. They are flawed and they are sinners and they are commanded by God to love their wives even when they are unlovable. Stop running around putting everything off on women to recognize the amazing awesomeness of most of you or to banish a few of you to a loveless pit.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Eric said:
Regarding foreign women (because I mention it a lot), it’s mostly a quantitative issue. Contrary to popular belief, single men far outnumber single women in the United States. And let’s be truthful, American women’s tendencies towards substance abuse, obesity, and gender identity disorder cut the numbers down even further. It’s not that foreign women are ‘easier to put up with’ insomuch as a single man has better chance of meeting a decent girl elsewhere.
However, whenever one mentions that around Churchian Gamers they complain that ‘all women are by nature feminists because of the sin of Eve. Foreign women are no better.’ Which illustrates that they don’t really want a complimentary relationship—in fact in link IB has above, Dalrock hisses the idea of complementarianism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Fromscratchmom said:
You, once again, blow my mind. That you can’t find a large enough pool of American women who aren’t addicted to something, living as men or just too fat for you…which is once again a function of what you are willing to put up with…but to be fair depending on what corner of our culture I look into somedays I couldn’t be so surprised and 1) I guess if you think that the pool of American men could be cut down just as severely that would be something worth considering and 2) there truly are fewer fat people in other countries (at least for now) although there’s a lot of extremely credible evidence that the American weight problem is rapidly being exported, along with many other related health problem, directly and obviously related, and not so directly and obviously too. If you would import a non-fatty for yourself and introduce her to the exact same level of toxicity to the endocrine system we have in our normal American lifestyle then there’s some pretty massive levels of wrongness going on. I know some marvelous and godly women who were imported here by American men long enough ago that they have kids the ages of my kids. Their families are NOT free of the toxicity. The weight, body, mood, and physical health problems exist there in similar variety as they do in other American families ….among them and their children. Luckily their husbands remain godly men and do NOT despise them for not having perfect enough bodies or unjustly and stupidly put every ounce of imperfection up against scripture as if anyone not guilty of sin could look better, more plastic, more like they’re still 18, and/or less like they’ve born children, as many many people in our culture unjustly, unwisely, and unintelligently do.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Eric said:
Well, if a man’s objective in marriage is to produce offspring, it seems logical that choosing a wife who is of child-bearing age, is physically and emotionally healthy, is intelligent and not confused about her gender role would be a good choice. Otherwise your kids grow up to be the kinds of morons who think that violent street riots are political activism and drug-dealing is a legitimate career choice.
Speaking for myself, I’d probably be inclined to export myself if I met a nice girl abroad—for the reasons you mentioned. Not only are most foreign cultures relatively free of our toxicity, their schools are generally better, men aren’t discriminated against for being men, and faith isn’t something held up to public ridicule.
As for the numbers, I’m not making them up. According to the census figures single men outnumber single women (of marriageable age) from a high of 145/100 in North Dakota to a low of 102/100 in Alabama. According to the CDC, almost 25% of women between 15-45 are on prescription psych drugs and 40% are more than 20 lbs. overweight.
A recent survey by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 7% of US women between 18-35 identify as LGBTQ. That’s 1/14.
I agree with you that men can’t expect perfection, but there’s only so far we can lower our standards and expectations of women too.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
Worded as you put it there, Eric I can agree that exporting ourselves might be a better option in future than bringing others to this country. Health and learning to fix it naturally is a huge concern of mine. It’s a shame that we are as unhealthy and badly behaved as we are in this country but seeing the pool of men I’ve had direct and close personal experience with here in America be perfectly willing to consider it if I had evidence that Christian men from other countries were less prone to being abusive husbands and fathers than American men in general.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Fromscratchmom said:
This discussion kept popping back in my head this evening, not because of anyone here but because of people I’ve known. I’m going o write a tribute to one particular woman I knew in my childhood, Fi.
Looking back I think was human like all of us but also pretty marvelous in her own strengths and inner beauty that she displayed to me many times. I can’t remember her husband’s first name. I remember waffling between being perplexed by him, put-off by him, or being afraid of him. Her son, J, was exactly my age and we were always in Bible class together every Sunday morning, every Wednesday night, rain, shine, or sometimes even blizzard, until my family moved away when I was twelve.
My mom was an amazing seamstress and crafter. She taught a lot of people how to sew. And she made a lot of things for a lot of people. But Fi had a unique talent that mom didn’t have (and that neither of us ever met another person who displayed it either). I had a dress I loved, homemade of course, that I outgrew and that my mom couldn’t get a larger pattern for. I kept trying to wear it anyway even though it was too short to be modest so it caused some scenes between my mom and I a couple of times. And I cried for the dress, which was very unlikely, I wasn’t a clothes loving or dress loving girl. Fi got wind of the situation at church while she and mom were chatting. She told mom to buy fabric for a bigger dress and bring it to her. She made me a perfectly fitting replica in my current size from eyeballing me and remembering the old dress on me and brought it to church to give me.
If was an amazing cook. She never cooked food from her native culture, only Jewish-American cuisine which her husband had grown up on and requested. My mom was an amazing cook too. And it was not particularly common for us developing foodies to acknowledge normal or average cooking from other moms. But Fi’s food was out of this world.
Once she invited me to go on an outing with them all day and then I’d have to spend the night and meet up with my parents at church the next morning. I agreed only thinking of the fun day. But when we got to there house that night I became inexplicably terrified of staying. Fi was afraid too. But she snuck me out and drove me all the way home, which was a pretty huge distance by the way because they lived way out in the country in one direction from the city and I lived way out in an opposite direction.
A few years after my family moved away my friend, J, killed himself and I never have known what became of Fi after that. But I’ll never forget her. She was one of the hero moms of my childhood.
LikeLiked by 1 person
insanitybytes22 said:
What a sweet story, scratchmom. Sad but sweet. I had a dress made for me when I was a little girl, too. Just a woman that thought I needed a dress. I’ve never forgotten it.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
Oi. Would obviously be a better tribute with fewer mistakes in it. Happens to me all the time any more with the level of demand and exhaustion around here. Nonetheless, I’m both sorry for the typos and glad I wrote it and had a good cry for my friend, J, and his wonderful mom.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
Aww. I love that, IB. Since mom passed away in 2010 I rarely receive homemade gifts, which kind of seems a shame. Although I did get a quilt from my quilting group because of mom’s passing. I treasure it like I treasure the Christmas quilts mom made. I want to get set up to do more quilting at some point.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Eric said:
Dull-Rock writes this: ” Kassian is teaching the Duluth Model of Abuse, a model that was developed by Feminists to eradicate the idea of Christian headship”
This coming from someone who constantly applies all the pseudoscience and pop-psychology in Game and calls it Christian. What evidence is there of male archetypes, hypergamy, feminine imperative, rationalization wheels, or any of this other stuff anywhere in science?
LikeLiked by 1 person
OKRickety said:
How familiar are you with the Duluth Model? If you are not, I suggest you do some reading on it. I’m interested in hearing what you think after some study on it.
LikeLike
Eric said:
The Duluth Model is flawed in that it is based on feminist ideology and is far too simplistic in its approach. But so is Game. What the cult-leader Dalrock is doing is claiming that DV is justified and that his own pseudoscience proves it—simply because it is the opposite of the Duluth Model. Feminism teaches that ‘all men are pigs’ and that women should expect abuse from men. The Churchian Gamers teach that men acting like pigs is Biblical behavior and women should submit to it.
The cycle of DV has to be treated on a case-by-case basis with depth psychology or as IB says above, women need better spiritual leadership.
LikeLike
OKRickety said:
Eric,
I’m glad to see you recognize the Duluth model for what it is.
How about saying that everyone needs good spiritual leadership, rather than restricting it to women?
I would appreciate some clarification on what you mean when you say “men acting like pigs”. That phrase tells me nothing other than you despise it and consider it to be sub-human.
LikeLike
Fromscratchmom said:
I can’t speak personally for Eric of course, but I see phrases like that used quite a bit by men as part of a paradigm where most guys are nice guys, justifiedable guys, perfect guys and then that has to be distinguished from the actual abusers and sinners that many who have this or a similar paradigm claim are rare but may also that women want. My soon-to-be-ex-abuser had it and was very deeply entrenched in the justifications and the great angst against women for not recognizing and fawning all over his nice-guy-ness, which was weird and/or ironic on several different levels, not worth going into. I always think of his bitterness, hostililty, and mr-angry-man persona when I see all the perfect guys on the internet going their own way and all the nice guys claiming abuse or any form of poor husband skills are really very rare and separate from all the great “nice guys”.
LikeLike
Paul said:
Well said IB.
LikeLiked by 1 person
"A" dad said:
“….until enough Christian men within the church lead on domestic violence issues, the secular world holds the moral upper hand and will continue to be the far superior approach for those seeking help.”
Memi, Glad you wrote this post! I am one of the men you wish for in your above quote! I also think I can simplify the “abuse” issue with the following basics:
Everyone understands that there is physical aggression, by the same token, everyone understands that there is relational aggression.
Men and women are capable of both. Every one’s experience and anecdotes about “abuse” fall within either of these aggressions / transgressions, sins.
All Godly people are required to deal with these transgressions and sins as Jesus instructs:
Matthew 18
15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
There is often evidence (witness) of physical violence, so it can be more easily addressed in submission to The Word. With relational aggression, we have to be very careful about making judgments, absent required witness.
I know from personal experience that the problem with the secular DV advocate culture, and the church DV advocate culture is demonic teaching on the subject of “abuse”. The demonic teaching comes from Lundy Bancroft, a cult founder and charlatan “abuse expert”. Lundy Bancroft is a 2 Timothy 3 deceiver.
2 Timothy 3
6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds,who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
Here is where Lundy Bancroft is reccomended by the National Domestic Violence hot line:
http://www.thehotline.org/2013/09/is-change-possible-in-an-abuser/
Here is where Lundy Bancroft announces his own cult:
http://transitiontoanewworld.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-spiritual-community.html
Here is where Lundy Bancroft is reccomended by blind guide “christian” groups:
https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2015/04/22/inside-the-minds-of-angry-and-controlling-men-lundy-bancroft-video-presentation/
https://thoroughlychristiandivorce.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/recommended-lundy-bancroft-when-his-put-downs-sound-true/
Here is a godly woman who has the correct perspective on Lundy Bancroft:
https://exposegcm.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/why-does-he-do-that-by-lundy-bancroft/
Recently, I was fraudlently sued for mentioning the above about Lundy Bancroft, to a local church that was blind guiding my wife, Lundy Bancroft style.
The church lost their lawsuit against me, and Lord willing, will be facing felony perjury charges soon! I remain faithful to my wife, and things are getting better between us.
Mimi, it’s not so much that lost women are using scripture to support their attitude, it’s that they are using cult addled charlatan “teaching” to support their attitude.
Like Paul before King Agrippa, I was “aquitted” before a local court when I exposed the church’s fruitless deeds of darkness, and I am in effect “appealing to Ceasar” on this issue, to bring this lost church (and my own church) back into submission to the Word in these matters. I am also hoping that Lundy Bancroft goes down on a national level, because of this case. Please pray for God’s Justice in this case!
I can provide more info if you are interested!
Amen!
James 3
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
LikeLiked by 2 people
insanitybytes22 said:
You are like a breath of fresh air, A-dad. I will definitely pray that you get justice and that your marriage really grows and thrives. I am all about the exceedingly, abundant, fabulous marriages, that I know God can repair and build.
I want to see the church leading us in healthy, happy marriages, so it weighs heavy on me when I find evidence of such failures, one extreme or the other, either the attitude that everything is abuse or else nothing is. Both extremes are way out of whack. I’ve now spoken to about a half dozen men, all whom I rather respect, who have told me stories about how they feel as if their wives were really pulled away, indoctrinated by cultian influences. I believe them, their stories resonate with me, I recognize some of the issues.
LikeLike
"A" dad said:
You are like a breath of fresh air as well Memi! And don’t forget Who Is Lord over your blog traffic.
You may not realize how much you minister to guys like OKRickety, even when you appear to disagree.
I think that your conversations have value.
As hard as your situation with your parents may have been, Memi, from my point of view, it uniquely informs your perspective on men and women in marriage. I see some beauty being made of those ashes!
Please send my regards to Mr. Memi as well, his silent support of you is no doubt a big part of your ministry of conversation, on your blog, which blesses all who read and write here!
Oh! and let’s thank God too! ; – )
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rebecca LuElla Miller said:
IB, as I read your post I couldn’t help but think of what Jesus told his disciples: the world has leaders lord their position over others, but you, my followers, are to serve if you are “first.” (RLM paraphrase – 😉 ) The point is, what you said about authority isn’t exclusively about a husband’s authority in the home. It’s about authority, period. Pastors aren’t to lord it over their congregants that they are the leader. They aren’t to brow-beat others into doing their bidding. Same with bosses or teachers or coaches or city mayors or cops or any Christian in any position of authority.
Becky
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
“The point is, what you said about authority isn’t exclusively about a husband’s authority in the home. It’s about authority, period.”
Yes exactly Becky! To me that seems to be what is at the root of so many break downs in our society. Marriage is kind of a microcosm of what is happening in our churches, our families, our communities, right on down the line and into politics in general. It is all about power and authority and us insisting on defining those things in our own way, rather than the way Christ taught us. So regardless of ones politics, I can look at our two political candidates from the lens of servant-leadership and see how we have strayed so far from that design it makes me feel a bit sick.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rebecca LuElla Miller said:
Sadly, me too. I think God is giving us over to our desires. If we want to make authority into what He never intended it to be, well, then, He’ll just let us. YIKES! It’s a scare thing to fall into the hands of God, but it’s also scary for Him to let us to our own devices!!
Becky
LikeLiked by 1 person
Fromscratchmom said:
Hey IB, another part of this popping in my head at this hour…do you suppose there are any countries with a higher preponderance of men looking to be godly and to fulfill the role God gave them well more than they are looking for the right woman to be good enough to fulfill their goals and/or gratify them?
I know so many women striving to be “proverbs 31 women”, so many for whom it’s been a favorite passage from a young age and is still a goal no matter how many years of real life and real husband they’ve experienced. I don’t think I’ve ever met a man who said he was striving to be a Job 31 man. Why do you suppose that is? that the pool of men is mostly/generally all about being fulfilled and gratified and apparently denying that women are worth anything more than being allowed to fulfill them and gratify them? complaining that women should be better at their women’s roles or more women should have those godly goals? While so many women actually spend their lives wanting to do well as wives and mothers?
(Well to be fair I do know of a few very very good men. They just seem like such an incredibly small minority in the world. And I don’t see any evidence that men are generally more noble, more humble, or more spiritually healthy in any other particular culture either.)
LikeLike
insanitybytes22 said:
That is a really good point. There are very few men trying to train themselves to be good husbands. It is not like women who grow up playing house and dreaming of prince charming.
There are of course many good men who do figure it out, but the social dynamic is different, isn’t it?
LikeLike
Pingback: Earning Rights in Marriage? | See, there's this thing called biology...
chosenrebel said:
“A husband is not imparted with privilege; he is entrusted with obligation—the obligation to love, cherish and shepherd, in emulation of Christ.” Mary Kassian has it exactly right. Thanks for the post.
LikeLiked by 1 person
authorstephanieparkermckean said:
Absolutely fabulous! Well done, You! Thanks! What an inspirational, true & refreshing read. God bless you.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pingback: My Homepage