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“That’s why Dalrock and Vox have entirely different and conflicting interpretations from IB, yet they are all (ostensibly) debating from the same source material. And each, unsurprisingly, believes his or her interpretation to be “the right one”.
This is a snipet of a comment made by Liz at Leelee of Babylon’s place. I snagged it because it mentions me and sums up something that weighs so heavy on my heart. Liz is speaking of faith, debate, and biblical interpretations.
I have to double down here and be really quite firm. I am right. I say that with a good understanding of scripture and the full conviction of the Holy Spirit. There is no middle ground here, there is no debate. There is simply right and wrong. We are not debating from “the same source material,” at all, meaning the bible.
It weighs heavy on my heart because people turn to the red pill Christians, read their words and think this is representative of faith, of Christianity, of who and what Christ is. Everyone who claims His name represents Him in the eyes of others, and as such they are required to do so with accountability.
We are not speaking of slight doctrinal differences here, we are not discussing communion crackers versus wafers, these are major heresies. They are heresies that will not only lead you astray in your Christian walk, they will literally drive any reasoning person away from faith entirely.
So Vox Day says many outlandish things that are not scriptural at all, for example, “The reality is that the only way to Make America Great Again is to Make America White Again. The two slogans are synonymous.”
Dalrock is trapped in perpetual hatred for his sisters. I’m not going to rehash all the ugliness, all the hatred, all the false teachings. I’ve blogged about these things extensively. Are they right about some things? You bet. There is often some truth behind some of the things they say. However, their faith is not built on love, it is built on hatred and it is devoid of grace. It is all about control and fear. The fruits are rotten there. fermenting.
There is no debate here. There is no fair and equal, there is only Christ and not Christ. That garbage is not of Christ. You’re piercing my heart because Liz’s comment is only one of many I have read, comments that call me to speak louder, to be bolder, to proclaim His name the right way, until enough of us drown out all that darkness and no one can ever say that Jesus Christ stands for hatred.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
I actually saw a similar situation once at a zoo IB. There was a young man who was mentally handicapped who stood out side the tiger cage and growled at the tigers. The louder he growled, the louder they growled back. Eventually it came to an end when some park attendants came running and carried him off.
My point is that you can scream from the mountain tops and you will not change the opinions of others. I say they are hopeless – and know you believe otherwise. Best of Luck.
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If we don’t speak up, who is going to? These are the things that help to drive people away from faith, away from church, away from Christ Himself.
I’m sure they shall haul me off someday, but it’s all good. The only way to deal with tigers is to growl louder than they do.
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They are God’s animals IB – I’m sure dearly beloved by Him – acting by route not thought. You are a thinking human – you choose whether to growl or not.
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No Paul. Tigers are God’s animals acting more by rote. People have freewill and choice and when they act like bullies you must speak up. Silence is the voice of complicity and there are just somethings it is not okay to be complicit in.
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LOVE IB. Jesus was clear that when violators of the law offended and were told and didn’t change, then they were to be avoided.
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Nope, mission accomplished, Paul. The gal has decided to write something about the redemptive and healing power of Christ.
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Wow. Ugly. Anti-Christ.
Many hate groups pervert the Bible and the Gospel for their own agendas. But our Father sees it for what it is. And you’re right, we must call them out as well.
Hate is hate, and those who use God to perpetuate hate are nothing less than spiritual terrorists.
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Susan, if you react like them you become them. You know what the Lord said better than I do: tell them, then report them (in this case that would by call them out on the internet) and if they still don’t change, then stay away from them.
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IB, you don’t hate sin any more than anyone else.
You just hate different types of sin in different ways than what you call the “red-pills”.
I personally cannot stand the lack of holiness and hungering and thirsting for righteousness that the majority of Christian women fall prey to. But I can’t blame them, because contemporary Christianity leadership (men) practices and teaches lawlessness; and their embracing of the sootiness of feminism, gynocentrism, and hypoagency is just one part of the abomination that ya’ll follow. It’s the husbands and fathers of all these clueless women that are just as much blame for feminine primacy as anything else. The women are just merely deceived…following the serpent like their mamma Eve did.
That doesn’t mean I hate THEM, I just can’t stand their funky and unconverted ways. But I can’t stand the funky and unconverted ways of most Christians (men or women). It doesn’t mean I hate THEM at all.
You have a very childish and controlling way of relaying your convictions, many of which I agree, actually.
NOBODY GETS A PASS ON NOT WORKING EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY OF NOT HUNGERING AND THIRSTING FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS IN EVERYTHING THEY SAY OR DO.
Why do you insist on DEMANDING such cheap grace and mercy?
Why is it that hard for you to understand? You like to call people’s spirituality plastic, but you sure come off like a lazy, unconverted, antinomian, heathen woman sometimes. This bohemian gospel screams “put up with my crap, put up with my crap, NO MATTER WHAT I DO”. Girl, bye. Nobody has to put up with anyone’s abject failure to seek the utmost for his highest. Your husband may put up with your crap, and your followers may consign it, but no one else has to.
And since you got me started….I guess I need to tell you that YOU are so brazenly outta line and outta pocket as a Christian woman who is supposed to be under the authority of your husband. You are out here on the internet picking fights and engaging in strife with MEN over what some might consider “doubtful disputations”. So in that vein, YOU ARE NOT BEING PROPERLY LED BY YOUR HUSBAND. If there is any part of you that thinks that how you get down is doing your husband good – and not harm (according to Proverbs 31), then your wagon wheels have lost their spokes. If any Christian wife were to publicly be doing what you’re doing, either her husband (if he were doing his job) would tell her to knock it off and go somewhere and sit her ass down, or the Titus 2 women in her life would chide her for her the lunacy of the endeavor, or you’d be run outta town.
You’re such a weirdo, IB.
I’ve wondered if Dalrock, Vox, and Rollo actually trigger some attraction in you.
Seriously…do they make you tingle? I’m just asking…
This thing with Dalrock though…very strange…very strange indeed. I’m not going to speak of things that are done in the dark, but something ain’t right about this one ya’ll. Like Tyler Perry’s Madea might say, “I’m CONCERNT”.
Dalrock better check all the pots for bunnies up in the hizzy!
LOL.
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Feel better now? Have you unburdened yourself?
I have one rule here, you aren’t allowed to put down my husband or my children in an attempt to attack me. You get one warning and I flush you into spam.
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Did you ask your husband if it was OK to post this? 😛
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Ha! Very funny.
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So far from exciting ‘tingles’ I’ve often wondered if most of you Gamecocks aren’t latent homosexuals. Men who go around making a fetish of the ‘manly Alpha leader’; who make no secret of their contempt for women and very homosocial in their personal relationships—let’s just say we gave those types a wide berth back when I was growing up.
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You mean THEM.
If they are as you say, then it might be typical, and yet another indication that they, not unlike you, aren’t on my level…
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At least you have Superiority Complexes in common!
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I have a significantly higher opinion of you than I have of LeeLee or Spacebunny, but I think Pedat has a point about not engaging these men in battles as a married woman.
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Well, first of all, thank you for casting doubt on my character as a married woman. Second, I pretty much attempt to engage women, not men but it is the red pill men where these girls get their ideology and it is the red pill men that intervene in many of our discussions.
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Any woman spending a good deal of time with men who aren’t her husband should have her character questioned. I don’t understand why anyone would even want to???
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Excuse me Kate, but I don’t spend a great deal of time “with men who aren’t my husband,” and I kind of resent the implication. In truth, my husband is right here with me at this very moment, watching Gunsmoke. We’re having a 3 day weekend together. I’d say I appreciate your concern, but actually I think it’s kind of mean.
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Resent all you want. I stand by what I said. For all the attacking you do of others, you might want to look at how you, yourself, drive people away from Christianity with obnoxious behavior. You continue to live in a drama spiral that makes people want to distance themselves from you and your ideology.
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Kate,the only time I ever see you is when you drop by to criticize me and often my marriage. I have no drama spiral. I also do not have an ideology, I have a faith. There’s a big difference.
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Oh, so you haven’t gone to another person’s website bothering them by pleading that you shouldn’t have to listen to anything I have to say. Good, good. Now I can claim a victory that isn’t mine, just like you did above.
I don’t think you get the overall picture: Christianity is facing a much bigger threat and I, for one (literally), welcome its demise. Whether you know it or not, Islam is the future of America. And it is the solution to every problem in the Manosphere. Pretty soon the men are going to put it together.
And I can hardly wait.
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Kate, that is too much drama for me. I cannot sort it all out.
I do need to say that when we have people celebrating the alleged demise of Christianity and declaring Islam is the future of America, we have a real problem. Something is all wrong with that picture. It’s not right, it’s dark, it’s evil, this is NOT Christ.
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Actually, a lot of the Red Pill/Churchian Gamers openly say they welcome Sharia Law in the US and Europe. If they think though that the Whacko Left and Radical Feminists are bossy and arrogant, wait until the Wahhabis are in charge. Even other Moslems can’t stand them:
https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950218000123
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It all seems very surreal to me. I sometimes call it an unholy alliance, the left, the alt right, the red pills, the fems, all promoting Islam as the cure for what ails us, all of them for different reasons, but all on the same page. That just boggles the brain. It’s just nutty.
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You’ll find nutters everywhere, but some more places than others.
Nutters are the best ammo an opposition has.
Poe’s law applies.
Kate, have you ever been to the Middle East and seen what the folks who live under Sharia law actually live like?
I don’t mean the royalty who are the equivalent of rock stars over here, I mean average folk.
I don’t know a single person who has been there, seen it up close and personal (on the ground level, not the five star hotels) and would wish that lifestyle on us. No, it isn’t better for men either, it’s an awful environment for everyone.
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Thinking further, you don’t have to go to the Middle East. Just take a look at what the people who live under that ideology are doing to Europe right now.
Good grief, Kate.
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I’d just like to say, Insanity, I think you are far more intelligent than any red piller (male or female) and see no reason why you shouldn’t ‘engage these men in battles.’ There is certainly no Biblical basis for such a position.
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Thank you for your kind words, Emily. These are not battles so much as they are a need to point these men to a better path. I can’t battle with them.
Also, these are the women I am speaking of, red pill girls, and women have a powerful role in pointing these men towards Christ, towards truth and beauty, rather than this crude and pornographic ideology that they are all in.
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Good luck lol. I’ve learnt in the past few months that it’s pretty much impossible to convince anyone of anything on the internet. Particularly red pill women. I’m not really sure what you can do about a girl who celebrates the objectification and oppression of women.
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“Good luck lol. I’ve learnt in the past few months that it’s pretty much impossible to convince anyone of anything on the internet. Particularly red pill women. I’m not really sure what you can do about a girl who celebrates the objectification and oppression of women.”
Well, I’ve changed my opinion many times through the years and much of it is from discussing issues. As I become more knowledgeable my world view changes.
I can tell you that the key to persuasion is not immediatelly stooping to very personal insults from a person who isn’t insulting toward you in an attempt to get a negative reaction out of them. From my interactions with you online, Emily, it isn’t surprising you haven’t effectively persuaded anyone.
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Quote from above:
“Actually, a lot of the Red Pill/Churchian Gamers openly say they welcome Sharia Law in the US and Europe.”
And THIS is precisely why they are dangerous. And this is why it is unbelieveable that any rational, thinking individuals — both men and women — are cutting off their noses to spite their faces by giving them even one shred of credibility. They CANNOT. BE. TRUSTED.
I stand by what I said before — these are very likely men (and women, too, but mostly the men in the ‘sphere to which I refer at this point) who are victims of no-fault divorce (see the book “The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25-Year Landmark Study” by Judith Wallerstein et. al. for a data-based impartial study in this regard, don’t take my word for it), and also victims of the current cultural chaos and probably also pornography. As such, they should not be given one shred of credibility, because they lack the basic rationality to make good judgments. They express hatred towards pretty much all women (and men as well) who don’t fit their precise mold. They quote Scripture right and left, justifying every excess in which they indulge themselves.
I tried to call a red pill woman on a very destructive piece of gossip she decided to spread, and was greeted with unspeakable rudeness. I did notice, however, that after I finished calling her on it, her last response to me resembled rather a spluttering attempt to justify her gossip.
Again…..there is only one weapon you can use against this evil, which is even more insidious that that which is outside the Christian Faith, because this poison is spreading from within. And that weapon is prayer — you can add fasting and almsgiving, too. Souls are at stake, and that’s the only way we can save them. Just DON’T. ENGAGE. THEM. These people are too turned against God to hear you. To assume we can preach away at them and somehow convince them is a form of pride, and we will probably drive them away further. Write the Truth on your own blog, comment at various times when you know something is necessary (less is more), never, EVER stoop to their coarseness and rudeness, and PRAY FOR THEM.
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Here are a few points:
1. The men mentioned here are, to a great extent, quite likely dangerous and violent. It is best to avoid them because they are not only impervious to the admonition of anybody, they will also decimate the person who calls them on their serious sin — as evidenced by the crude topics they choose and the language with which they discuss them. People like this are not safe.
2. Our job is to pray for their conversions, and pray for the perseverance of their wives, if they have wives.
3. Refute them politely and with dignity, never stooping to or adopting their behavior and language. Remember, the behavior, language and choice of topics show clearly that they are simply immature boys who didn’t grow up, so it really shouldn’t bother anybody — consider to whom you are writing. Pity them, for it’s likely that many didn’t have good parents. Others were corrupted by the culture or perhaps by pornography. Consider them for the immature people they are, and pray for them. They sure need the prayers. Only God can drag them out of their muck; you can’t do it.
4. Remember that they are victims of a degenerate culture that has probably done them great harm — and not in the way they have said. They have been harmed by the culture of pornography and license. They have NOT been harmed by women, as they so claim. They are using that as an excuse to justify their language and topics.
5. Sadly, there are even some men who profess a faith that I also profess, and through their written words are sinning gravely by discussing that which should not be discussed. When you put something on the ‘net, it becomes public, and you are responsible for the rise and fall of whoever reads it. It is a sobering thought.
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Pornography? Okay…I guess.
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It is NOT okay, Pedat. Look at the words you select with which to express yourself. I leave it to yourself to determine what a person could conclude from reading it, and the appalling word selections used by other gentlemen who frequent the manospherian blogs. I still recall men who were truly gentlemen, and who, despite the assertions of men in the ‘sphere, were respected for the men of integrity which they were. Their generation is now mostly in eternity, but all we have to do is do our duty as parents and raise sons of integrity — something the ‘spherians are most definitely NOT doing if they are giving such appalling examples in their homes.
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Pedat,
Hmmm, very enlightening choices of vocabulary words. If not out and out crudity, at the very least it is full of innuendoes. I absolutely agree with you that IB should simply drop this, but it is because all of you are simply too immature and too degenerate in your choices, as mentioned above. As a man speaketh, so is he…..and all of you gentlemen (a word which I use with reservation) speak in very eyebrow-raising ways. It appears that many of you did not have good parents who raised you properly, or, as mentioned before, you have been so damaged by the culture or pornography. God help you all. The only thing constructive anybody can do for you is pray for you.
Incidentally, in a saner day and age, gentlemen used appropriate vocabulary. Your unacceptable vocabulary shows your maturity level…..this is the type of language I would soap my teenage son’s mouth for, if he used it.
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“Unacceptable” to whom…you?
Words are tools.
I can code-switch all the day long in as many derivations as I choose.
You WASPy hegemony and vague assessment, while well within your privilege in an open forum, is just wrong.
Pray for IB’s “red-pills” all you want; as is your right IF you were going to actually do so in all earnestness, but – like most people who make such declarations – aren’t going to do any such thing but perhaps the opposite, so stop being phony.
As far as I am concerned, I don’t desire your stank prayer. I am in the grip of Yahweh my Elohim, and have no need for any Andre Linoge types to be showing up at my aging mothers doorstep.
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Well, you certainly seem to be in the grip of something, but absent any fruit of the spirit, how can one possibly tell exactly what you are in the grip of?
“Stank” though my prayers may be, I do pray for the red pills, I pray they soften their hearts and turn their eyes to Christ. I’ve been at it for about two years now. Why? Because God told me to.
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Well my response about prayer was to STMA, but since you cut in line, I am telling you that when you say you pray for them, I don’t believe you. So, I believe you are lying.
Lawless Christians and their unholy ways are in no position to tell me anything about the fruits of anything. And while I wish none of you ill, I have no problem telling you that I am not praying for you.
This is all just conversation…you keep shirking your comeuppance and dodging holiness and everyone else will do whatever they do.
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“Lawless Christians and their unholy ways are in no position to tell me anything about the fruits of anything.”
Hmm, I don’t seem lawless nor unholy, but just in case, perhaps you should get extra busy and try showing us some of those fruits of the spirit?
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What you want me to present to you is that cheap grace and mercy and cutting of slack for your fruitless campaign against men…which you which are not the fruits of His Spirit.
Its what I have NOT written here to you or your respondents is where Father Yahweh’s true fruit thrives.
Because stuff you do, I HATE, and you best believe that it is really only the Spirit that gives restraint.
You don’t eschew, encourage, nor walk in Holiness as a married Christian woman; yet this is not in typical. This isn’t red pill praxeology, and the “red pills” and I diverge on that aspect.
It’s not solely about feminism (and you clearly are one) or gynocentrism or any other -ism.
Ya’ll are just unclean, don’t love the Lord, nor hunger and thirst for His right ways, nor keep His charge, yet DEMAND mercy for rejecting His statutes, and say that everyone else isn’t Christ like because they won’t give you a pass for being deliberately obstinate and wretched.
Now for those watching, see which ONE sentence she will cherrypick in response.
Faithless, wayward, and morally repugnant people don’t get to pass go. What’s more is that they swear up and down they are.
You would understand what I’m talking about if you were fully converted…THIS is the elephant in the room that your red pill enemies don’t talk about.
These virtue signalling women you have targeted because it rubs you the wrong way when they talk about the Proverbs 31 woman is a prime example. You can’t stand that people expect others to be Holy and try to bring SOMETHING to the table.
If your people don’t expect you to be sanctified, consecrated, and accountable, then why is that other’s problem.
The scripture reads, “a virtuous wife, who can find?” Sheesh, how about somebody get y’all converted first…
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What I want you to present to me is the same grace you yourself have received. When all I can see in people is hatred, bitterness, and condemnation, it is not Christ they are following and it is not grace they have received.
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You are not ABOVE correction and admonition, woman!
If it weren’t for the ceaseless grace and mercy of Father Yahweh, I would be in jail, raised in an extended family where sexual sin and depravity were the course of the day, married into a family of murderers and criminals, and in a mental institution!
Yet, along the way I grieved His Holy Spirit, of my own volition, failed to keep His charge, and was chastised, talked about, ostracized, and put in time-out…ALL of which was JUST!
So YOU have to take your lumps like everyone else. Shirking ones comeuppance is indeed a SURE path to condemnation and humiliation.
I told you before that you need to keep the names of the “red-pills” outta your mouth, and focus on encouraging WOMEN to be sanctified, holy, and walk worthy of women who are hid in Christ.
Because I do NOT believe the Father told you to do a damn thing as it concerns going on your campaign against “red-pills” on the internet. BULLSHIT!
Yahweh, the one true god of creation, would do NO such thing.
So either He is a liar, or you are, Insanitybytes.
We are all parts of the body, members in particular, and have to work our measure, but it cannot be contrary to His Word!
You were NOT commanded to put Vox or Dalrock on blast by our Master. Period!
I could create a wasteland on your blog, and most of the manosphere (Christian) blogs just ripping their asses apart for their filthy and trifling white nationalism, and could back it up in person, but that wasn’t what He called me to do.
You know why? Because I stay in my lane. I glean what is useful and discard the rest!
If I were to do so, it would be because I personally felt like it, and no other reason. But I don’t have time to teach white Christians about who He loves, and doesn’t. Figure it out yourself! Just don’t approach me with it because I will NOT be turning any other cheeks, ever!
If red pills rub you the wrong way, and instead of encouraging WOMEN to reject the ideals and behavior that bring on the contempt of red pills, you wanna take these men on…fine…but don’t say God told you to do it, because He didn’t. He tells women, in His word, in no uncertain terms, what their roles and responsibilities are.
And you are outta line.
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“I could create a wasteland on your blog…………’
Uh hello pedant…………?’ It appears you already are doing a fine job.
So stop it.
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Very clever… 🙂
Pedantry can be fun, seeing people double down on their waywardness and wickedness.
Its instructive, to say the least.
But I will stop. People bristle when I tell them that at a certain age, nothing will get them to change their wretched ways.
But I’m generally right…
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“Because I do NOT believe the Father told you to do a damn thing as it concerns going on your campaign against “red-pills” on the internet”
You don’t have to believe me, but He sure did, over and over again, and I did not want to because it would be far easier to wash my hands of such brokenness and walk away. I know it is God and not me that leads here because He said to love them and point them back to Christ. If it were me leading , I would happily fling them all off the planet without an ounce of remorse.
Now you can accept the love I am trying to show you all, no matter how imperfect it may be, or you can continue to behave like a complete wanker.
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I am not asking for nor need your love…so leave ME out of your campaign. You aren’t built or made to love everybody, especially folks like me…so keep it…
I was just sayin’…I wash my hands of wayward and lackluster folks all the time, unless its my measure to endure such.
But we are at different places in the journey, and certainly on different planes.
Its been interesting.
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Pedat,
“You WASPy hegemony and vague assessment, while well within your privilege in an open forum, is just wrong.”
“I don’t desire your stank prayer. I am in the grip of Yahweh my Elohim, and have no need for any Andre Linoge types to be showing up at my aging mothers doorstep.”
Your childish wording is indicative of your immaturity, and the hatred you are choosing to spout off is a clear indication of a combination of both immaturity and a lack of a good classical education. I suggest you learn to behave properly. Comment on your part on that last sentence will be totally ignored, at least by me. You are also espousing racism, which I never have done. And if you don’t like the way I express myself, then you obviously don’t like anybody whose education was focused on the classics and an intensive training in classical composition, spelling and the like…..so all ‘spherians out there who think homeschooling is so great, a well-educated wife who knows how to write and think is a huge help in this regard, unless you want your children ignorant so you can marry a wife with next to no education who never learned to write and think — and I know a few men who turned down well-educated women because they feared they would not have sufficient control over her mind.
And you are only using the term “vague assessment” because you don’t know what else to day. It is not at all unlike the red pill lady who was spreading gossip after I called her on it. I will only say it is most enlightening, as well as amusing.
IB,
You can see the fruits here in someone who is frothing at the mouth with hate and rage…..see, you cannot engage them. They are in the grip of something nobody can do anything about, except God and His grace. Don’t engage them. IB, I’m serious, don’t engage these men in their immaturity and hatred.
Pedat has clearly shown where he is — the fact he called me a WASP is very funny. I’m not a Protestant in the first place, and while I admit I’m of British descent, my husband most certainly isn’t. These men are incapable of any rational thought. They are simply little boys in adult bodies, pretending to be adults. They deserve to be pitied and prayed for, but really, a lot of people are right on here — don’t bother engaging them. It’s not worth the cost to your time and health. I have been the victim of ‘spherian hatred in the past, and it is ugly. It can take its toll on you.
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“You are not ABOVE correction and admonition, woman!”
Correct term when addressing a woman whom you do not know — “ma’am” or “madam”
“BULLSHIT!”
This is profanity, which is undignified and unacceptable.
“I could create a wasteland on your blog, and most of the manosphere (Christian) blogs just ripping their asses apart for their filthy and trifling white nationalism, and could back it up in person, but that wasn’t what He called me to do.”
Racism — nobody has acted racist to you, so you have no right to do the same to others.
“And you are outta line.”
On the contrary, you are, sir. That post was filled with incorrect vocabulary, profanity and insults. This will get you nowhere. You are simply an immature little boy who needed good parents to train you correctly. And yes, there IS a correct way to train children.
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“The only way to make America great again is to make America white again.”
Wasn’t America originally Red? I keep thinking about how Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were students of the governments of the Iroquois and Cherokee Indians and often used them as models for our own system. I don’t recall whom; but one of our Founding Fathers claimed that the idea of a body of popular representatives with an elected Chief Executive was a copy of the Iroquois Federation’s government.
It’s interesting too that the Congressman Vox defends is from Ochee, Tennessee. Both the city and state sound like Choctaw names to me…LOL The White Nationalists/Nativists always have a bit conundrum when the Indians come up.
Vox also claims that being White was a requirement for immigration for ‘our first 130 years’ which is false. He apparently doesn’t even know that what we call today Hispanic was legally classified as White/Caucasian up until about 30 years ago. The only time I time I know of when the US had a policy against Chinese immigration in the early 1900s; and even that was in retaliation for China’s anti-American immigration policies.
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Yes. To make matters even crazier, VD is allegedly Native American and Hispanic, living in Italy, while advocating for white nationalism in the US.
People in the modern world are just nothing but one I-dentity crisis after another and half out of their minds in the process.
However, have I mentioned Jesus Christ lately? “Make America Christian again,” just might be the slogan we need. 🙂
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When I was growing up, my pastor sometimes said, “You can prove anything from the Bible. It even says there is no God. You can look it up–it’s in the first verse of Psalm 14.”
Some people who carry the label “Christian” have chosen not to be led by God’s Word but instead to quote fragments of Scripture out of context to support their twisted thinking. I commend you, IB, for taking the time to correct them. It may be useless; for all you and I know, they may be posting stuff that they know is foolish just to get a reaction from people like us.
As long as we remain focused on Christ and his cross, we will be all right. J.
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Salvageable,
I hope your pastor taught a lesson about the importance of context following that statement. If not, it’s little wonder the church has so many problems.
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Well, of course. That was the point he was making–that context is essential to understanding a quotation from the Bible correctly. J.
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I know where you’re coming from, IB. I’ve been in discussions before in which one person points to “all the denominations” as proof that Christianity is false. Their thinking is, if you can’t agree, then how can you tell us there’s an absolute truth?
They miss the point that a) true Christians do agree, though not necessarily on every single point. Just on the points that matter–the points that make a Christian, a Christian; b) agreeing with error doesn’t solidify someone’s position. Error is error, even if the person holding to it says he bases what he believes on Scripture. Look at the pastor—I forget his name now; he passed away some years ago—who claimed to know the day Christ would return. That was error, no matter that he based his ideas on some system of numerology he concocted by reading the Bible. It was error first and foremost because he claimed he knew something Jesus said no man knows.
In other words, people can’t cherry-pick the Bible, ignoring parts they don’t like or disagree with, and then claim they believe the Bible.
But to the issue of these false and harmful beliefs, I had a thought the other day when I was praying for the churchians. They claim a certain relationship with women, then treat us or speak about us as if we are the enemy.
The Bible says Christ has a relationship with His bride, the Church, that is analogous to a husband’s relationship with His wife. So, do these churchians think Christ speaks about them and treats them the way they speak about and treat their wives? Would they want Him to? Do they understand they are as much the “wife” in this relationship with God as any woman is?
It sounds very much as if they are rather trying to take the place as one who stands along side God as opposed to subservient to Him. That’s Satan’s temptation of old. Eat, and you’ll be like God.
Why that’s so sad is that they are robbing themselves of His love and provision and care and comfort, all the while they are administering tyrannical treatment to those they are supposed to prize, as Christ does His Church.
Becky
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“I know where you’re coming from, IB. I’ve been in discussions before in which one person points to “all the denominations” as proof that Christianity is false. Their thinking is, if you can’t agree, then how can you tell us there’s an absolute truth?”
Well, since I’m the subject here I’ve never stated nor implied that Christianity is false. I’m simply stating the obvious, after years of watching (and in some cases moderating) religious debate everyone has his or her own interpretation, everyone is absolutely adamant that their view is the correct one, and (I’ll add this, didn’t mention it before) they seems always very quick to label the alternate opinion (also based, ostensibly, on scripture) as “unChristian”, “hate filled”, “Satanic” and so forth.
One need only read this thread to see that’s the case. It isn’t a matter of difference of opinion, one side has to (literally and figuratively) demonize the other.
Sorry to “pierce your heart” IB. That wasn’t my intent. But I speak the truth.
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“Well, since I’m the subject here I’ve never stated nor implied that Christianity is false.”
Yes, but have you ever implied it was true? And if not, why?
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Liz, apparently you missed the point I made at the beginning: Christians agree! We agree on the basics of our faith. People who only borrow parts of Scripture to make their point, don’t qualify as Christian.
IB quoted Vox Day as saying, “The only way to make America great again is to make America white again.” That kind of racist statement is not consistent with, “For God so loved the world … that whosoever believeth.” Or Paul’s statements about no distinction “between Jews and Greeks, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Sythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all and in all,” recorded in Colossians.
And since we’re stating the obvious here, I think it’s obvious that some are Christians and some aren’t, so I’m not sure why saying someone doesn’t believe the gospel is a hateful thing. It’s simply a fact. Do these people who profess Christ believe that there’s no distinction between male and female in God’s eyes? Do they believe that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church? Do they believe that Christ died for people of all nations and tribes and tongues, and that heaven will be populated with people of color as well as people of Jewish and Arab descent, oh, and some Caucasians, too.These are not complicated Biblical ideas that need to be worked out (like, say, the doctrine of the Trinity or predestination).
I guess the question is, can racists be Christians? Can people even focus on “making America great again” when Jesus said to seek first God’s kingdom and righteousness? Are those in the church of the Laodiceans, who Jesus said in Revelation He will spit out because they are lukewarm—are those people believers? God knows, because He knows their hearts. To us, Jesus said, By their fruit you will know them. Nothing in me recognizes the “fruit” of men who say horrible things about women, including their wives; who say racist things against people groups which include brothers and sisters in Christ.
Becky
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You’ve hit the nail on the head, Becky. I’m thanking God for you being here.
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It would do some of these people good to realize the the cradle of Christianity is the Middle East, where so many of our brothers and sisters are suffering the most unspeakable cruelties. We have a huge contingency of Iraqi refugees here who are Chaldean Rite (an Eastern Catholic Rite). One of the Byzantine Rite priests in our diocese learned the Chaldean Rite so they could have the Divine Liturgy to which they were accustomed. We went to see it one time; it’s just beautiful.
Most of the people came here with nothing but the clothes they had on…..they have lost everything.
I think part of the reason the ‘sphere is so violent is that the majority of these men have no idea what suffering truly is — try losing your parents and a son, and fleeing on foot as fast as you can, no home, no job, no idea whether or not your family will survive…..come to a place where you know no one…..see a relative crucified right in front of your eyes.
I’m glad I haven’t had to endure any of that.
Sobering.
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“Yes, but have you ever implied it was true? And if not, why?”
I’ve stated that I am a Christian before. I don’t mention it a lot because talk is cheap, actions matter more and the folks I’ve known in life who talk the most about Christ are typically the least Christian in practice.
I care more about truth than show, it doesn’t matter to me how people on the internet interpret my relationship with Christ to be.
“And since we’re stating the obvious here, I think it’s obvious that some are Christians and some aren’t, so I’m not sure why saying someone doesn’t believe the gospel is a hateful thing”
Many of the responses to Lee lee were quite hateful and personal. By contrast, she was neither hateful nor personal.
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“Many of the responses to Lee lee were quite hateful and personal.”
Well, I think calling women objects, especially in reference to a rape victim, farther speaking of the alleged, “fat, slutty and slovenly,” are not very loving ways to speak about other women.
I’ve tried very hard not to be hateful and personal in this discussion, but that can be challenging when you have people criticizing your marriage, implying you’re hanging out with strange men, lying, you’re obese, immoral, slovenly, and a feminist who wants to have an abortion. Sheesh, I’m laughing here, but what the heck? Who is being hateful and personal?
You still haven’t addressed the other red pill comments from VD or Dalrock either. Do you think I’m being unfair in speaking out against “make America white again” or “just throw acid in their faces?”
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I’ve never read VD and seldom read Dalrock, IB. What I’ve read of Dalrock I’m probably in 80 percent agreement (but not the racist elements, if there are racist elements). The problems I’ve found with Dalrock aren’t scriptural (but again, even the posters there vary greatly in their interpretations). But again, I’m not a regular reader.
VD and Dalrock were just arbitrary examples, which seemed pertinent to the point in this (anti) Lee lee discussion.
You don’t like them, they don’t like you, everyone maintains their interpretation of the scripture is the “right one” and the other is (insert pejorative of choice).
To the question of whether someone can be a racist and Christian, yes I think so. Those aren’t mutually exclusive things. But it’s odd when we’re discussing why innumerable types of bad behaviors are irrelevancies while drawing the line at that one (which is, in my mind more of an ignorant belief system, not a crime against Christ).
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You don’t read them, you do read them, you seldom read them, but you’re in 80% agreement with Dalrock whom you rarely read? Except for the racism, if there is any?
What am I supposed to do with a comment like that, Liz?
You confuse me even more with,
“The problems I’ve found with Dalrock aren’t scriptural…You don’t like them, they don’t like you, everyone maintains their interpretation of the scripture”
Scriptural or not scriptural?
Hmm, and racism as simply an ignorant belief system but not a crime against Christ? I imagine we could classify all sin as an ignorant belief system, but it’s not like some sins are okay and don’t offend God.
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“You don’t read them, you do read them, you seldom read them…”
What I actually stated was:
“I’ve never read VD and seldom read Dalrock, IB.”
There’s not a lot to be confused about in that statement.
I added:
“What I’ve read of Dalrock I’m probably in 80 percent agreement (but not the racist elements, if there are racist elements). The problems I’ve found with Dalrock aren’t scriptural (but again, even the posters there vary greatly in their interpretations). But again, I’m not a regular reader.”
So, to clarify, as I am not a regular reader I cannot offer an opinion on his writing with much accuracy.
What I’ve read I’m usually in general agreement.
If you’d like (but I don’t think you are reading for understanding now) I could clarify further.
I think Dalrock jumps to conclusions too quickly. We’re all designed to be that way…it was beneficial to act on partial information when we were cave people, because action in response to partial information was the way we survived. We survived because it’s generally correct to form conclusions based on partial information. But in the modern world with all sorts of information available (and often purposeful disinformation) it’s not a good strategy. So, for instance, with Nagmeh he was correct. But he was incorrect to jump so quickly.
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“Hmm, and racism as simply an ignorant belief system but not a crime against Christ? I imagine we could classify all sin as an ignorant belief system, but it’s not like some sins are okay and don’t offend God.”
Just thought I’d add further.
I disagree that all sin could be classified as an ignorant belief system, though it is true that people often commit sin out of ignorance.
Second believing in equality of the races is a very very modern phenomenon. If it is your assertion that racists cannot be Christians then in the broad timeline from 0 to 1960 or so there were virtually no Christians known to earth.
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I never said racists could not be Christians. I said racism and assorted other hatreds are sin. Hatred has existed since the dawn of time, but so too has love. To claim everyone was racist prior to 1960 is ridiculous. Go back to the bible, “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
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“I never said racists could not be Christians.”
I was responding to Rebecca above. Specifically this quote: “I guess the question is, can racists be Christians?”
When I answered “yes”.
Then you responded and I responded to your post in THAT context.
See when you try to read for understanding context is necessarily. But most folks (to include you) don’t seem to do that when they disagree online. They read for attack.
See what you and others did to Lee lee.
“To claim everyone was racist prior to 1960 is ridiculous.”
But I didn’t claim that, I said “virtually”. There was some extreme outliers I’m sure.
Much like you’d like to believe Medieval love poetry typifies the Medieval romance experience in reality (it didn’t, but I know saying so willl get me thrown in that moat), it seems you would like to believe that racism did not typify the historical Christian experience. But, sorry IB, it very much did. You don’t have to have much knowledge of history to know that’s the case.
“Go back to the bible, “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.””
Well, yes indeed. The reason we had all those concepts like “white man’s burden” was to spread the word of Christ to other races around the world (ostensibly) to ensure their salvation. The fact that Christians acknowledged other races had souls would not indicate they thought of them as equal in every other way.
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You know Liz, that’s all pretty much irrelevant. Is it okay to hate people in Christ’s name? The answer is no. Those who do are wrong. Those who stand behind those who do are also wrong.
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” Is it okay to hate people in Christ’s name? The answer is no. Those who do are wrong. Those who stand behind those who do are also wrong.”
How true, how true!
But since I don’t read either VD nor Dalrock (enough) to form any conclusions about whether they hate anyone in Christ’s name, I cannot weigh in there. I DO read Lee lee though, and I don’t find her to be hateful. On the contrary, she is one of the cooler heads I’ve seen in the sphere-centric (or is that word redundant?) blog world. If you disagree with her, she won’t stoop immediately to insult, but will explain her position.
If, at the end of things, you can form no agreement she is always respectful.
YOU have targeted her, she never targeted you.
So who is demonstrating contempt here? And you claim to be doing so out of love for Christ.
I think your readership finds you interesting for much the same reasons I do. Elspeth said it well a while back.
“When you’re right, you’re spot on” and you say it really well.
You also have a style of humor I appreciate.
You aren’t at your best when you are outright attempting to make enemies from people who shouldn’t (and don’t want to be) your enemy.
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For Kate, above (and anyone else interested)
Written by a former diplomatic liason officer (he’s lived just about everywhere and was in the biz for about three decades)
http://www.thediplomad.com/2016/06/yet-again-yet-again-islam-shows-its.html
“Please forgive my citing previous posts, but it proves hard to say anything new about dealing with the Islamic threat,
How to deal with Islam? Take it at its word. When Islam says it wants to conquer, enslave, and kill us, believe it. Islam claims to be a warrior creed, accept that. Peace marches, candlelight vigils, piles of teddy bears, bathing buildings in colorful lights, and word salad speeches about “not letting the terrorists win by changing our ways” just won’t cut it. I would bet that many of those killed in New York, Boston, London, Paris, and Brussels were progressive liberal sorts who “welcomed” the arrival of Muslims, and would have proven horrified at the thought of our portraying Islam as a murderous dogma. Delusions can and will get you killed.
The case of Turkey and Islam is a complex one. Suffice to say, that by putting Islam back into national politics, Turkey’s current rulers deviated from Ataturk’s post-Ottoman policy of suppressing Islam, and removing it from the nation’s political and military spheres. Ataturk saw Islam as the major reason Turkey was backward, “the sick man of Europe.” The leaders of Turkey have played games with ISIS and other terrorists, thinking they could outsmart them and use them against the pro-Russian Syrian regime and the persistent Kurdish demands for a homeland. How did that work out? You cannot ally with or befriend ISIS or, for that matter, Islam. It will backfire. Why? Because Islam’s objective is your submission, or failing that, your death. Look at our relations with the Saudis. If anybody owes the United States, the Saudi royals do. Yet, we see them funding terror and even turning a blind eye to direct attacks on the United States homeland and our people around the world.
Nothing I haven’t said before, but I said it less eloquently. I will never understand why folks disregard what they say and look for different motives.
Culprit: “I am killing indiscriminately to spread the Caliphate! Praise Allah!”
Response, folks wringing their hands: “Oh, if only we could understand their motivations! Whatever do they want?”
Scott Adams recently did a video with his dog Snickers that all dog owners should be able to appreciate.
He placed a bowl of dogfood in front of Snickers and the dog wasn’t interested in his boring old food. But when Scott took a piece in his hand and said, “Do you want a treat?” Snickers ate is excitedly. He did this a couple of times.
The response above that represents the ACTUAL no kidding, real response from some folks to Muslim terrorism, is actually dumber than Snicker’s response.
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“Oh, if only we could understand their motivations! Whatever do they want?”
Some people may be interested in solutions, not bigotry.
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Learning that you believe taking someone at their word is bigotry has got to be the very least surprising thing to happen to me all week, Emily.
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“Learning that you believe taking someone at their word is bigotry has got to be the very least surprising thing to happen to me all week, Emily.”
Yeah… the thing is, that pov requires believing that every other muslim believes the exact same thing – which is pretty much bigotry.
How many Muslims do you know personally, Liz?
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If an individual or group of people tell me they are killing en masse in the interest of establishing a caliphate (or insert any other motivation whether religious, racial, political) I believe them.
I do not dismiss what they say and look for motivations that make them fit into my moral compass so that I can understand or relate, empathize, excuse or rationalize.
I’m sure I know many more Muslims than you. I’m sure I know far more people who have living in the ME. I almost lived there myself. I could go on for a great while about Middle Eastern politics. If you’re looking for really blatant bigotry and chaste systems, there are few places on earth where on earth it is more replete.
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“If an individual or group of people tell me they are killing en masse in the interest of establishing a caliphate (or insert any other motivation whether religious, racial, political) I believe them”
Well, you believe the individual, and perhaps the group he or she represents. But how many people are a part of that group? Does he or she really speak for a group of over a billion people? Don’t you think that there may be a subgroup within Islam that’s more of a problem than Islam itself? I mean, wouldn’t that explain why these terrorists attack other muslims even more than they attack us? I’m not saying it’s a perfect religion, but by saying these things you alienate and demonize far too many perfectly good muslims who should be our allies.
I’m not saying that the Middle East is a good place. But there are a lot of muslims in Houston, and I’ve met a lot of them, all devout but perfectly good people. And the only thing that may radicalize them is hatred and bigotry.
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You believe they’re “good people” but the “may be radicalized by hatred and bigotry”.
In other words, you believe that people you’ve just described as fundamentally good might become terrorists if people aren’t nice enough to them? How very unbigoted of you.
28,640 terrorist attacks since 9/11, all in the name of Allah, would indicate Islam is a problem. That doesn’t mean every Muslim is a terrorist (even if people are mean to them…sometimes people are mean to me and I don’t go around bombing airplanes).
If there were even a tenth as many Christian folks killing civilians in the name of Christ, I can’t imagine the reaction. One thing for sure, if Christians were murdering thousands in cold blood in the name of Christ, we’d call it (accurately) a religious problem. Imagine if thousands of Christians went on a murderous rampage from an internet rumor that a Bible had been flushed down the toilet by an infidel.
Of course, Christianity DID have an intolerant phase. Centuries ago, during the “enlightenment”.
“Christian” countries today are the most tolerant and free on the planet. And Israel is a functioning democracy with well over one million Arab citizens who vote and pray freely–the freest Arabs in the Middle East. By contrast, the only government that has survived for any length of time as a Democracy in a predominantly Islamic country has had to resort to several military coups to keep it that way (that’s Turkey, and Istanbul is a lovely city…or it was ten years or so ago, now I think there might be travel restrictions, they’re moving the military dependents out now).
So if they’re going for an enlightenment and don’t want to give their own religion a bad name, they’d better get crack-a-lackin’ because right now it’s going in exactly the opposite direction.
And, yes. The greatest victims of Islam are Muslims. The greatest burners and desecrators of the Quran are Muslims–a lot of Qurans, for example, get desecrated every time some Sunni blows up a Shia mosque.
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Well, they probably wouldn’t become terrorists. But constant bullying and bigotry at the hands of some could conceivably lead them to hate America and Christians, kind of like terrorist attacks done by some muslims have lead some of us to hate all muslims.
I’m not trying to compare Christianity with Islam. I think you know where I stand on that matter.
But a lot of the social problems, corruption, and misogyny present in Islamic countries exist in most other third world countries too. The difference is that the Islamic world is also extremely unstable, and we haven’t helped matters by invading their countries and supporting terrorist organizations. I mean, in the 80s we supported extremists in Afghanistan. We STILL support Saudi Arabia.
Statements like ‘They want to kill us all! Omg’ doesn’t really help us, nor is it true. Better to understand the nuances of these issues. As you said, they need an enlightenment, they need to reform. We aren’t going to help matters by treating ALL of them as enemies, and banning them from our countries. That will just block the flow of knowledge and modern and Christian values into those countries.
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You make a good point about “constant bullying and bigotry” as a motivator for people to rebel, revolt. There is always cause and effect going on. It’s not a good explanation for terrorism which generally involves people being radicalized, but it does apply to other forms of domestic racism, the rise of feminism, marginalized groups of people that begin to hate and resent the dominant culture.
Another example would be red pill women who exhibit a great deal of hatred towards women, hatred towards themselves, and seek constant male approval to validate their own self loathing that no doubt stems from being marginalized and bullied by other women.
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“The difference is that the Islamic world is also extremely unstable…..
Instability isn’t the difference. Somalia was even less stable (internally) when it was run by packs of warlords. But it wasn’t outsourcing terrorism to the world in the name of Allah then.
….and we haven’t helped matters by invading their countries and supporting terrorist organizations. I mean, in the 80s we supported extremists in Afghanistan. We STILL support Saudi Arabia.”
The above is true.
But let’s consider the 80s situation for a moment and remember the context. We supported Afghanistan rebels (not all were extremists) over a Communist invasion force. So if it is your contention that “bullying and bigotry” produces terrorist cells they wouldn’t have turned around and proceded to target us next. The same thing happened in the Balkans, but far quicker. As soon as we saved the Muslims from the Serbs and they got a little breathing room they started cultivating terrorist networks and those folks on the ground who had just finished defending them started collecting computers in discovered underground networks with plans to blow up Disney world on them. As you mention, we support Saudi too and very directly. Yet they still fund terrorism. Doesn’t sound like ignorance and bigotry are causing terrorism.
“Statements like ‘They want to kill us all! Omg’ doesn’t really help us, nor is it true. Better to understand the nuances of these issues.”
True, but you seem pretty blind to the nuances.
Ignorance and myopia don’t help either. Solving a problem begins with identifying the problem.
“We aren’t going to help matters by treating ALL of them as enemies, and banning them from our countries. That will just block the flow of knowledge and modern and Christian values into those countries.”
It could be argued that the flow of knowledge (our knowledge to them) is exactly what has empowered their asymetrical warfare tactics. We’re filling them with knowledge, currently, and arming them as well. There are Arab nations with better F16s then we have, currently, and we’ve been teaching them tactics for years.
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I’d say this, if being exposed to western values and democracy were going to help, they’d be in much better shape now. It seems to be having the opposite effect and everywhere Democracy goes the countries fall like dominoes. Way back when Iran first obtained democracy the people immediately voted themselves into a theocratic dictatorship (to a murderous psychopath, far worse than the dictator they ousted). And I think Iranians (Persians) are a lot more like us culturally than most Arabs. They were quite westernized (with lots of good people) when they did this.
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Insanity and Liz, I wasn’t trying to say that ‘bullying and bigotry’ cause Islamic terrorist attacks. But there definitely is a cause and effect there too, and it would help to read and understand why that may be rather than make blanket statements like ‘they want to kill us all.’
“Another example would be red pill women who exhibit a great deal of hatred towards women, hatred towards themselves, and seek constant male approval to validate their own self loathing that no doubt stems from being marginalized and bullied by other women.”
Exactly, Insanity. Hatred breeds hatred.
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“Hatred breeds hatred.”
You got that right. Sad, isn’t it? I really do believe that people claiming Christ’s name have no business trafficking in hatred. Nobody’s perfect, but when ALL we have is hatred, we don’t have Christ.
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“Way back when Iran first obtained democracy the people immediately voted themselves into a theocratic dictatorship”
I’m not a scholar of Persian history, but I’m pretttttty sure that they actually voted in a secular democratic ruler. I think this was in the 40s or something, but I’m not sure what his name was. Anyway, I think the UK launched a coup to replace him with the Shah, because they didn’t like that democratically elected leader. AFTER that event, Iran later became a theocratic dictatorship.
That’s just one example. I wish I knew more about history and politics, but I’m pretty sure there is a cause and effect for all of this and it would do one much better to actually study these things than make hysterical statements about all muslims.
Knowledge is fine. Arming them is not. We sell soooo many arms to Saudi Arabia it’s insane. And I’m sure a huge percentage of those arms end up in the hands of terrorist organizations.
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“I’m not a scholar of Persian history, but I’m pretttttty sure that they actually voted in a secular democratic ruler.”
You’re right, I’d forgotten. A pretty good and concise (and you would think it evenhanded I think) book I’ve read is
War and Peace in the Middle East: A Concise History by Avi Shlaim
https://www.amazon.com/War-Peace-Middle-East-Concise/dp/0140245642
But heads up, an Israeli I know who worked in Intel for decades and is very knowledgeable about the subject considers this author and his work to be anti-Semitic, and it does seem to have some bias that way.
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Thank you, Liz! I’ll order it.
Anti-semitic? Shlaim sounds like a Jewish name.
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Just to add, it’s kind of hard to find a non-biased book about history and policy in the Middle East.
That one’s a fast read and gives a pretty good overview.
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“Thank you, Liz! I’ll order it.
Anti-semitic? Shlaim sounds like a Jewish name.”
You’re welcome. 🙂
Heh, yeah he’s Jewish and was raised in Iraq.
But I’ve noticed that sometimes Jews accuse other Jews of antiSemitism too.
(when it comes to some of the more contentious issues)
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Bah, I think ‘antisemitism’ gets thrown around wayyy too much. I’ve been accused of it just for supporting the Vatican’s decision to recognize Palestine last year.
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Keep speaking up. Ultimately, we only have One audience to please and He is coming back for us not the detractors.
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We all who claim the name of Jesus Christ have a true obligation to love one another. But that doesn’t mean we allow our freedom in Christ to indulge the sinful nature. Where does this leave us? In that unusual territory called “grace.” None of us would be alive without the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. Live it and share it! Thanks for your boldness and straightforwardness! We also strive for bringing the truth about marriage in our blog.
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