No complaints about Doug Wilson’s post at all, nor about the woman’s post either. It actually grieves me that some of us are madly in love with the Lord, and with husbands, and have found freedom in scripture, peace in our souls from submission, and that attempts to share some of this wisdom, some of the truth and beauty to be found there, are so often met with outright hostility, contempt, and complete disrespect.
I however, do not blame the culture, I pin that resistance squarely on those perceived to be Christians, on the Dalrockians and Biblical Gender Roles players in the world. I left this comment over at Wilson’s blog and I meant it, every word,
“I have to say that blogging about submission and marriage is a brutal business and as much as I’d like to pin that on the culture, the non believers, the feminists, that road to hell has actually flat out been paved by Christians themselves. First there is the manosphere, the alt right, shrieking “women submit, women submit,” until one starts to believe Ephesians 5:22 is now the entire bulk of scripture. Then there is the BDSM community, and the red pills and pick up artists and assorted sexual perversonists, and then there are also the Proverbs 31 wives all to ready to hiss and spit their virtuous selves all over you.”
“Submission is a beautiful thing, as is marriage, and the design is rather perfect, however I have to say I can link to half a dozen Christian bloggers right now, Christian mind you, who are actually promoting abuse and the devaluing of women, who are enough to convince any woman with a lick of sense to flee from the very idea. That is where the heart of the battle exists and I do hold them all accountable for what they do, because they are the enemy, they take truth and beauty and make it ugly, and they do it in Christ’s name.”
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.” 1 Corinthians 13:1
The problem with a sounding brass and tinkling cymbal is that they are loud, very loud, and they drown out any voice trying to speak softly, and they stand there as an example of what authority abused really looks like, of what scripture taught without love actually produces.
Women, not being particularly stupid, can usually see through this hypocrisy and rightfully conclude, submission?! Forget the whole concept, that man needs somebody to bake him a batch of brownies, heavily laced with fiber because he is obviously full of coconut candy. That is the real “S word,” lurking behind the problem of trying to teach submission. He who is not under authority, has no authority. And He who speaks without love, teaches falsely.
The enemy is within our confines, not outside the gates, and it stems from false teachings, from mis-appropriated scripture, from abused authority, and from our own unwillingness to speak out against those things, to drag that garbage out into the sunlight, or out into the Son Light if you will.
Women cannot lead from the bottom, not when there are men and women, Christian men and women, stomping on every petal being laid down upon the path.
Rebecca LuElla Miller said:
We know from what John said that many deceivers have gone out into the world, and Jude and Peter both have much to say about false teachers. The point of false teaching is to distort and belie the truth, to keep people from embracing God’s perfect plans and design. After all, our adversary is a liar and the father of lies. We must pray that the truth will out no matter what he does or who he gets to tell his false doctrine.
Becky
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insanitybytes22 said:
True, Becky. His word sure does get it out too, it never returns void. Have to keep the faith 🙂
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newenglandsun said:
“The problem with a sounding brass and tinkling cymbal is that they are loud, very loud, and they drown out any voice trying to speak softly, and they stand there as an example of what authority abused really looks like, of what scripture taught without love actually produces.”
He wasn’t in the fire, he wasn’t in the earthquake. He was in the whisper 🙂
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ahhhh the whisper, the still, quiet voice. How perfect that is, how beautiful.
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you for the reblog, much appreciated. 🙂
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
You’re very welcome!
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Paul said:
Yep, pretty much.
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insanitybytes22 said:
It’s all good, Paul. I’m building a giant catapult so I can toss all the bad people off my planet. 🙂
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christinewjc said:
Hilarious! Made me laugh out loud… Loved it!
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rollingblogger said:
I truly hope I am not one of those Christian bloggers you speak of who devalues women.
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insanitybytes22 said:
How could you possibly be? I think you were just out roasting hot dogs with a woman, weren’t you? 🙂
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rollingblogger said:
Nope. 100% certain she is my wife.
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Eric said:
I went back and read St. Peter’s epistle because he talks about submission in some details. Feminists and Churchian Gamers don’t like to cite Peter, (or mangle his words when they do) because it contradicts their ideologies.
To understand Peter’s insight, the context has to be understood. Peter was writing about the duties of Christians as part of society, and was making the case that the social order exists as God’s Will, and that Christ worked within its framework to achieve Divine ends. IOW, Christians are to work within the social order to bring it into conformity with God’s Will for a Just Society—but not to overthrow institutions and impose a new order.
After speaking of a Christian’s duties to governments and to employers, he begins Chapter III: “Likewise wives be in submission to your husbands” and then explains how good women influence men and indirectly influence and improve society. Then: “Likewise, husbands, live with them according to how you have been taught; cherish your wives, as a weaker vessel, as being heirs together in Grace in this life… be all of one mind, have compassion for one another, love as brothers, be merciful and kind…”
The term ‘weaker vessel’ gets pounced on by Feminists and Churchians because it’s badly translated and even more badly interpreted. The term in Greek implies a fragile, delicate, but valuable object—and that interpretation is obvious from what Peter says afterwards.
But actually reading the New Testament doesn’t serve the purposes of Feminists and Churchian Gamers; because it contradicts their ideologies—and exposes their goal to overthrow social institutions (like marriage and gender roles); contrary to what the Apostle Peter taught.
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Fromscratchmom said:
Thanks for the mention of 1 Peter. Perfect for some early morning meditations.
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Fromscratchmom said:
IB, I think God has given me exactly what I need in many moments over the last couple of month’s through your blog efforts. And I again thank you for it. Yesterday and the day before were a pivotal time for me in trying to process everything that has happened. Good brought me to a place of absolute exhaustion, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual while demanding I give a little more to the needs of others. I read what you wrote about being broken versus being virtuous and I finally submitted my whole heart to just being totally broken rather than striving for the virtues within the experiences …and wept some more… There’s so much weeping in this life and in this kind of experience. I don’t know what the future holds now that I have to live post-broken. But I know God is with me and I will be thankful for the salvation at the end of that road.
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Fromscratchmom said:
And I’m weeping again now from expressing such a small part of the tumult.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ahh, thank you for your kind words and for your encouragement. It is hard, to say the least, to submit your entire heart and to allow it to be broken, but God is the Great Potter, He can take all those broken bits and fuse them together, creating something even more beautiful than the original. He really does hand us beauty for ashes and eventually we can come to know that all is well with my soul no matter what our circumstances. He is worthy and wants only the best for us.
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Sanne said:
Insanity, this latest post you linked to is truly horrible. They actually attacked the poor woman abandoned by her husband for not managing her health condition and being a spoilt princess! And the idea that a 38 year old woman is “aged” is frankly, retarded. Do they even know anything about human biology?
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insanitybytes22 said:
It is horrible, it is certainly one of many posts completely devoid of love. Thank you for validating that, because a surprising number of Christians really believe these guys are the cat’s meow, something that completely baffles me.
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Sanne said:
You are welcome! What baffles me is that so many folks who consider themselves traditionalist and even Catholic don’t appear to have any problems with this whole pernicious doctrine which undermines the very basis of the Western civilisation by first, promoting degenerate behaviour, second, discouraging men from marriage, third, attacking traditional European attitudes towards women by calling them gynocentrism and feminine imperative, fourth, presenting men as powerless victims of the said imperative and etc etc.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I am most baffled myself and have invested a great deal of time trying to understand it. Ultimately the answer is to be found in scripture, we humans just have a way of straying off the path and getting all lost, something we are told will happen even more frequently as the end draws near.
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Salvageable said:
I don’t read the blogs you read, but from what you say, a lot of “Christian” writers have decided what they want to believe, then gone fishing through Scripture to select their favorite proof-texts. I never quote Ephesians 5:22 and following without including verse 21–“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” J.
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insanitybytes22 said:
You are far wiser than me, Salvageable, to not read some of those blogs. 🙂 On the other hand, reading them has strengthened my resolve and clarified my faith even more, so I suppose it is not all bad. I honestly don’t know anybody who runs around quoting nothing but Ephesians 5:22, except on the internet.
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christinewjc said:
My husband and I have been married for 32+ years. In that span of time, there were no doubt moments of fear, anger and loathing. However, once we were both born again in Christ, we had times of disagreement, but ultimately knew our love would win out.
This post made so many important points – especially because we often battle with the “syncretism stew” of skewed Christian beliefs. We are told in the book of Jude that this would be more prevalent the closer we get to the end times.
I also really appreciated reading what Eric wrote, “The term in Greek implies a fragile, delicate, but valuable object—and that interpretation is obvious from what Peter says afterwards.”
Knowing that we are valuable to Christ, and also to our believing husbands, makes all the difference! Sometimes I think that I have the more difficult job of dealing with my husband’s idiosyncrasies. But then I face the fact that I have a few of my own! This is how we learn to love – not only “because” of characteristics of a person, but also “although” we aren’t perfect.
I don’t mind being labeled as “a fragile or delicate” object because the Greek description also includes being labeled as a “valuable object!”
Christian husbands have a tall order to fill! It is the people who ignore the following verses who do not understand what submission really means!
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
Col 3:19
Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ah yes, it is actually a lovely thing to be a weaker vessel, weaker meaning precious, like a much valued bit of pottery or china. It’s a shame that some people equate “weaker” with having less value, because that is not the meaning or intent behind those words at all.
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Eric said:
Part of the passage in Peter’s says to husbands that those who don’t their wives in this way that “cherish your wife as the weaker vessel…that your prayers not be hindered.” The Greek word translated ‘hindered’ literally says ‘cut off’. Peter is saying that God takes maltreatment of one’s wife very seriously. No wonder the Churchian Gamers discreetly keep such passages out of sight. So far, what Peter teaches is contrary to everything they teach.
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Citizen Tom said:
Over the years I have observed that sons generally adore their mother and daughters adore their fathers. My brothers and I would have no problem reading Proverbs 31 and thinking: “that’s Mom.” Yet we each no doubt would appraise our father with a bit more realism. Like us, he too was a troubled soul. Yet Dad was our role model, and whatever his faults Dad loved our Mom.
The Old Testament is something only Jesus could perfectly embody. Yet by our low standards some come close. Those who fail and don’t much care ignore the advice of the Apostle Paul.
A man should try to imagine his wife might be better than himself. If he can’t, he probably doesn’t love her, and if he doesn’t love his wife, why should he expect her to submit willingly to him? Obviously, he would never consider doing such a thing.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“A man should try to imagine his wife might be better than himself.”
Yes, lovely! We are the recipients of unmerited favor, blessed by being given a spouse of such high worth and value. Sometimes I think, “I am just not worthy of this man,” and rather then making me feel bad, it actually makes me feel quite blessed and grateful.
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Grace and Truth Ministries International said:
Loved your post IB, especially these two statements. “He who is not under authority, has no authority. And He who speaks without love, teaches falsely.” 🙂
I believe those two virtues of humility and love are the missing virtues that foster these perverse doctrines of submission. Jesus spoke with authority, because He loved the Father, and willingly submitted to the Father’s authority. Men can speak with authority when they love The Lord Jesus, and willingly submit to His authority. Women can speak with authority when they love their husbands, and willingly submit to their “husband’s” authority.
God never called Christ to love and submit to another God, a man to love and submit to another LORD, a woman to love in covenant and submit to another man. We are all sons and daughter of God, and He gave us all our rightful place, rank, and position to function in. Anything outside of that place is rebellion against God, who is the author of all authority.
Of course, if any authority does not submit to the Word of God (The Lord Jesus) they should be rebelled against and not obeyed.
When we love those God put under our authority, it is easy for them to submit, love, trust, obey, and follow our leadership, unless they have rebellion inside of them.
Those that have to demand submission or have a problem with submission have a problem in their own heart with submission to God’s Word. You cannot lead where you haven’t gone yourself. Back seat drivers are hypocrites that need to practice what they preach!
“Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.” (Psalms 119:165)
“And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28)
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you for your kind words and for your comment. That was lovely! I agree with everything you’ve said.
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