Zande dropped off a good article called “Evangelical Christianity’s Brand Is Used Up” and it speaks to many things that have been on my mind for the past few years. Christianity as a brand, as marketing, as politics, as this cult like movement called family values, the moral majority, where it is all about being a member of an exclusive club, religion not relationship.
I grew up outside the church, I don’t know this kind of commercialized Christianity, my faith does not come from culture, upbringing, or churchianity. My faith comes from collapsing in hysterics at the foot of a King and being seen, heard, answered, blessed with His fragrance, His presence, His leadership. Let me tell you, there is no doubt in my mind that God is real and that Jesus Christ transforms lives. I could write volumes about the goodness of God, about what a gentleman He is, about His kindness and mercy, about how He desires to have a personal relationship with each one of us.
This article speaks some harsh truths, something I went digging into a few years back myself, curious about this disconnect I was feeling, this separation from “The Brand.” The article says, “The religious right in America has always been a political philosophy based on bullying, pandering, projecting strength to hide fear and weakness, and proud, aggressive ignorance.” Yes, I’ve bumped into some of that. I’ve suffered some of that! The religious right, not as servants of The King but precisely as this article portrays us, “Evangelical means obsessed with sex, Evangelical means arrogant, Evangelical means fearful and bigoted, Evangelical means indifferent to truth, Evangelical means gullible and greedy….”
A-yep, on the outside looking in, that is precisely what “evangelical” looks like as a brand, which than begs the question, what the heck are people thinking trying to convert Jesus Christ into a marketing/political brand in the first place??
The article goes on to say, “The Evangelical brand is toxic because of the stagnant priorities and behaviors of Evangelicals themselves.” Yes! We can’t blame anyone but ourselves. By their fruits you shall know them. There’s some rotten fruit out there! My excursions into the alt-right of the internet, into the red pills, have frequently lead me to my knees in complete despair. You people have no Christ in your Christianity! What the heck are you doing?? You have “The Brand,” but you sure don’t have The Brander. You have put on the armor of Christ, but not His mercy, and as a result, you are all a bunch of empty suits with no authority. Jesus Christ could show up in person and kick you in the behind and you wouldn’t recognize Him.
Those are harsh words to speak over people, but I’ve earned the right, I have the scars to prove it, and I speak with full authority, His authority. If you don’t get the message of the cross, you are nothing but an empty brand, a box of overpriced sugary cereal with no nutritional value that you just bought because you think there’s a prize in the box. You’re a fool paying for packaging and pretty colors on the box, consoling yourself with a 3 cent toy made in China. Selling Jesus Christ short doesn’t even begin to describe it.
The second thing I do every single day is pray that we don’t get what we deserve as a country, as a church, as the Body of Christ. I pray for mercy, I pray for Divine intervention, I pray that God wakes us from our stupor gently. I pray not as someone on the outside looking in, but I pray on behalf of those Lost Boys and Shaming Women, as if I really were my brother’s keeper, as if I bear full responsibility for letting things get this bad. That is Kingdom Authority.
We are the church. I am the church. The church however, is also full of arrogant bullies, sexual perversion extraodinaire, and we have to gall to then point fingers at feminists, at homosexuals, at leftists, at all those “bad” people not of our exclusive club, as if we can offer forth some kind of plea bargain. “Lord, look over there at those people, we have found the sinners!” Baloney! We’re a bunch of hypocrites and people know it.
Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country. Like anything else, there can be forgiveness there, healing, freedom from bondage, but you don’t get to speak to me about the horrors of homosexuality while eroticizing women being tortured, while covering up child abuse, while engaging in outright racism. You lost the moral upper hand because you aren’t serving the Moral Upper Hand.
A victory built on sand is nothing more than a short lived illusion, a vanity, just chaffs of wheat blowing in the wind.
I am self righteously angry, morally indignant, because an atheist is right, because a fem from Seattle is right, because “evangelical” as a brand is sour milk, salt with no flavor, a kingdom without a King, and without God’s intervention and mercy we will reap the whirlwind of our own confusion and chaos. We are reaping the whirlwind.
Let me share the good news however, Jesus Christ still reigns victorious, seated at the right hand of the Father. The salt of the Earth is alive and well too, a bit torn and tattered, but thriving even. The Body of Christ has a powerful pulse and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, not because of who we are, but because He said so.
I am an evangelical Christian, a fundamentalist even, a label, not a brand, a label I refuse to let go of, choosing not to take the easy way out, not to start calling myself a “Gospel Christian” like the article suggests, as if I can just separate myself from my bothers and sisters who are “doing it all wrong,” so now my hands are clean. Oh no, it doesn’t work that way, God doesn’t hand out extra credit points for such things, He flat our calls us to preserve the unity, and to love them anyway.
I do! I love them anyway. I empathize with the arrogant, the lost, the bullies, the porn addicted, even the bigots, because we are the church and Jesus Christ gave His life for such as these. Many of them make me angry, I’d sure like to bounce a few teacups off their heads, but that really is the nature of love! If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t bother, I’d simply wash my hands and walk away.
“Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there’s nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour’d rage…”
–Henry V, Act III Scene 1, Shakespeare
Susan Irene Fox said:
Brilliant!
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john zande said:
Well said. Well said, indeed.
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ColorStorm said:
Hi jz
A bit puzzled here with your accolades.
Is it all well said or just the part about a troubled image? In other words, are you ‘happy’ that the ‘brand’ is used up, because it confirms your loathing of christianity…………and/or
is it equally ‘well said’ that ‘Jesus Christ still reigns victorious, seated at the right hand of the Father?’.
Others are curious too I suppose.
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exanimo7 said:
I’m curious too, but let’s just let this be. No need to start another debate…
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john zande said:
This post is not about me, so please don’t try and make it so. Indeed, would it not be a far more fruitful use of your time to consider the nature of the post and, perhaps even more importantly, the article it references? Do you agree with the sentiments expressed in both? Can you fault anything Valerie Tarico or Insanity says? How does this make you, an evangelical, feel? Do you fall within the “brand”?
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ColorStorm said:
Nice try john.
My observation about your comment included a reading of
a. Your linked post, which you share disdain with the writer toward christianity.
b. The post here you are commenting on, therefore,
c. A reasonable query was put to you regarding your own words.
Your comment is ambiguous and straddles the fence. Any fair minded person would agree my question to you is quite relevant and on point.
No, not looking for a debate, as there is none.
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john zande said:
When you want to express your views on the content of the article and Insanity’s post I’ll be sure to read those views with interest.
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ColorStorm said:
My views are obvious and hardly need added.
You were cited to simply clarify. A stranger reading may wonder as well. No biggie if you do not want to.
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john zande said:
Again, I look forward to you addressing the content of the article and post.
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ColorStorm said:
You hate it now don’t you jz when you do not have the upper hand, and cannot control a convo. 😉
So, in the spirit of your reputation, and with apologies to the host here ib22, we shall ask again:
What was ‘well said, well said,’ about this post that so struck you to repeat it?
The person, work, and worth of Christ which was clearly delineated, or,
the confirmation of your despising christianity. Simple really to clarify, as a new reader may also wonder 😉
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john zande said:
Well, I found these two sections quite telling.
From the article: “Laid out like this—sex-obsessed, arrogant, bigoted, lying, greedy, ignorant, predatory and mean—one understands why a commentator like Croft might say that Trump is Evangelicalism. But reading closer, it becomes clear that Trump and Cruz and Rubio are not the problem.
The Evangelical brand is toxic because of the stagnant priorities and behaviors of Evangelicals themselves. Desperate to safeguard an archaic set of social priorities and theological agreements, Evangelical leaders bet that if they could secure political power they could force a halt to moral and spiritual evolution. They themselves wouldn’t have to grow and change.
And this from Insanity: “The church however, is also full of arrogant bullies, sexual perversion extraodinaire, and we have to gall to then point fingers at feminists, at homosexuals, at leftists, at all those “bad” people not of our exclusive club, as if we can offer forth some kind of plea bargain. “Lord, look over there at those people, we have found the sinners!” Baloney! We’re a bunch of hypocrites and people know it.”
We’re a bunch of hypocrites and people know it.
What do you think about that, Colourstorm? Do you agree: are you sex-obsessed, arrogant, bigoted, lying, greedy, ignorant, predatory and mean? Are you a flaming hypocrite? Do you parrot Republican speaking points simply because you’re branded and couldn’t be bothered thinking for yourself?
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ColorStorm said:
Much better now john, tkx-
You ended with this:
—What do you think about that, Colourstorm? Do you agree: are you sex-obsessed, arrogant, bigoted, lying, greedy, ignorant, predatory and mean? Are you a flaming hypocrite? Do you parrot Republican speaking points simply because you’re branded and couldn’t be bothered thinking for yourself?—
To be fair, this would be better answered by people that I rub shoulders with daily……..as it is though, I prefer the greater point.
There is a Lord who is friend of sinners, and that is the rub, I own my misfittery, and heck, even Paul himself was known by his own words as ‘chief of sinners.’
And note also, that believers, as suggested in the post also, are sometimes hypocrites, thus elevating the credibility, something it seems foreign to others.
But your catalog of sins presented such as lying, greedy, ignorant, etc…….perfect candidates for the grace of God……..for He justifies the ungodly.
Btw, even the lousiest hypocrite believes in God; just may take a while for this thing called sanctification to kick in.
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exanimo7 said:
Amazing post! You have a way with words and a way of speaking truth that I wish I had.
Also, you quoted Shakespeare, which makes you ten times cooler! 🙂
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KIA said:
Very nice post. Thx
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futuret said:
https://serayah515.wordpress.com/
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KIA said:
Speaking of insanity… Follow the link to find out another wild numerologist interpretation of current events. Wow
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dpmonahan said:
These things are cyclical. All movements start as ideals and end as rackets, then enter a reform period. The history of American religion is no different. Go back and read about the Great Awakening or the early Fundamentalist movement. The problem is that Americans in general and Evangelicals in particular have very short memories and think they are reinventing things every generation.
The “Evangelical Brand” has never been held in high esteem by outsiders, for some good reasons and some bad.
Try reading Rod Dreher’s blog for ideas of what reform might look like. He too has a little bit of a short historical memory, but at least he is trying.
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futuret said:
MORE EVIL AND PENETRATION:
http://endtimesmatrixnews.com/2016/02/26/cern-is-ready-to-tear-the-veil/
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Eavan said:
The writer of the linked post is simply laying out her particular vision of the good, which conflicts with an evangelical vision of the good. Since her vision is in conflict, of course evangelicals are all the things she claims they are. I’m certain that her favorite people have a few disgusting vices of their own and given what she defends I’d guess they’re every bit as politically active as some evangelicals. Politics is about conflicting visions of the good. Evangelicals are as certain they know the good as she is – why is her vision correct and theirs not correct?
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Evangelicals are as certain they know the good as she is – why is her vision correct and theirs not correct?”
Because when weighed against our Lord and Savior and held up against scripture, we can arrive at this place called absolute truth. It is not a simple matter of two sides “having conflicting visions of the good,” because there is also just plain old right and wrong, and also human desires that have nothing to do with visions of good. I am an evangelical, but just because I wear that label it does not suddenly mean that I own absolute truth, that my vision is always going to be aligned with His.
When Christ walked the earth, it was the religious people of the day who persecuted Him, it was the pharisees He call vipers. In the final chapter, Christ does not return with a bone to pick against atheists, Marxists, and homosexuals, He has a bone to pick with churches.
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Eavan said:
I never said that they were equal visions of the good or that there’s no absolute truth, just that quite obviously the writer thinks what she believes is good and what Christians believe is bad. In a democracy those who believe in absolute truth still have to make their case that it exists and is God.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“….what she believes is good and what Christians believe is bad…..”
Eavan, you declare the author of this piece not a Christian?? And Russell Moore, a prominent leader of the Southern Baptist Convention who declared he would no longer refer to himself as an evangelist, also not a Christian??
This is the problem with the world we’re living in today, with the kind of faith we’re practicing. We’re kicking people out of faith, at least metaphorically, as if it were an exclusive club and we get to be the gatekeepers or something.
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Eavan said:
I have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t declare anybody not Christian.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Perhaps you meant something different?
You said, “I never said that they were equal visions of the good or that there’s no absolute truth, just that quite obviously the writer thinks what she believes is good and what Christians believe is bad.”
It seems to me as if you were saying there is what this woman believes versus what Christians believe?
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Eavan said:
I misspoke-I meant what she calls a particular brand of Christianity. However, I don’t accept that it’s only evangelicals who believe these things. Obviously, Catholics believe them, Orthodox believe them, as well as many other non-Christian religions.
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silenceofmind said:
The atheist professes the official ideology of Satan.
The problem is, as shown in the Zande article, that the modern Christian has for the most part, allowed Satan to define Jesus, the Gospel and the Christian disciple.
Christianity is simple:
It is the Way the human being fulfills his human nature.
Ask the atheist how the human being fulfills his nature and you’ll either get a big DUH-zilla or enough BS to clog up the metro sewer system.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“The problem is, as shown in the Zande article, that the modern Christian has for the most part, allowed Satan to define Jesus, the Gospel and the Christian disciple.”
Yes Silence, I think you’ve nailed it. That is what I often observe. Everyone has their quirks, but when a “Christian” does not believe in the cross, does not believe in the need for forgiveness, and does not believe in scripture, who is defining your faith for you?
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brianbalke said:
Amen, sister! Amen and Amen again! I have heard this under everything that you have written here, and am so heartened to see it here in the context of affirmation between two fundamentally good people that I think have been talking past each other for so long! Hallelujah!
Now where is the “Love” button when you need it?
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Hilary said:
Evangical never made any sense to me!
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Eric said:
“A political philosophy based on bullying, pandering, projecting strength to hide fear and weakness; and proud, aggressive ignorance.”
Sounds like a definition of Liberalism to me.
“Evangelical means obsessed with sex; Evangelical means arrogant; Evangelical means fearful and bigoted; Evangelical means indifferent to truth; Evangelical means gullible and greedy…”
Substitute the term ‘Progressive’ for ‘Evangelical’ and this would be an accurate statement. The Cultural Marxists running the media, though, define the so-called ‘Religious Right’ in this way—which is also a projection of the vices of the Left. It’s the Left who’s obsessed with shoving their sexual perversions in other people’s faces; the Left which looks down on everyone else as inferiors; the Left which imposes its Political Correctness at home and abroad through force and fear; the Left which preaches Relativism as opposed to Truth; the Left which preaches Social Justice to its gullible followers while profiting greedily off its own policies, &c.
Christianity is not invalidated because some of its followers don’t practice what they preach; any more than the Constitutional Ideals are invalid because politicians don’t follow them. The failings of the Evangelicals are because they are part of a corrupted and degenerated general culture too. The Left wants this corruption and degeneracy established as the social norm—therein lies the problem.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Christianity is not invalidated because some of its followers don’t practice what they preach….
Amen, Eric!
“The failings of the Evangelicals are because they are part of a corrupted and degenerated general culture too. ”
Yes, but if we’re going to chose to serve that culture, we do invalidate our own Christianity. How can I tell those red pills who quote scripture over and over are wrong? By their fruits, by my inability to distinguish them from who some call the Left. Are those red pills arrogant, bullies, sexually perverse, dreaming of totalitarianism? Yes! So what makes them Christians and not say, Marxists? Nothing as far as I can tell.
By their fruits you shall know them. John 13:34-35 tell us, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
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joyindestructible said:
I know I’m not very useful to the cause of false religion. I’m not a very good Jesus salesman. I’m way far from perfect, I don’t have a perfect family, I try not to sin but sometimes, I do, I am guilty of condemning in others what I sometimes, also do, I don’t have great wealth, success, fame, prestige, or perfect health…in reality, I’m a sick older woman living in an average home down by the river…I am nothing special but I have Jesus in my life. He loves me despite all that I am and all thatti I am not and because I belong to Him, He asks me to do the same. The church is a mess, it always has been, because it is made up of human beings. When it gets sick is when we deny that truth and put the church in the place of God. Jesus validates the church, when we invite Him in. Maybe when everything we put in place of Jesus crumbles, we’ll begin to understand.
You and I have similar testimonies and my relationship with Jesus is always, in stark contrast with the institutionalized church. However, my relationship with Jesus is what unifies me with the organic, living church. In fact, I hunger for that special fellowship. Sometimes, the institution chokes the life out of the church and I have to move on but most of the time, I ignore the institution and focus on the people. Right now, I’m drifting…it’s weird.
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waltsamp said:
I think what joyindestructible (what a great handle) is looking for is the kingdom of heaven/God. The church is mentioned about four times in the Gospels. The phrase the “kingdom of heaven/God” appears about 200 times in the New Testament. The church is earthly and thus, while having its purpose (as all things do on earth) it is not going to heaven. If we believe we are going to live in heaven with Christ forever we should see ourselves as part of the entity that is going to be in heaven and focus our attention on the eternal aspect of it that we can experience now.
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joyindestructible said:
I believe Christ is transforming the church and we will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in a more mature state, a wife rather than a young bride. My focus and hope is also, in that future kingdom but while I’m here in this lesser kingdom, I am appointed to direct others to all that Christ is and all that I’m not. Jesus lives in me but Pam still lives here too and that condition is also, the condition of the living organism known as the church. The institution is another thing entirely.
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madblog said:
Imma have to differ with you here IB.
I’m an evangelical, a fundamentalist I guess(?), and I also came from the outside…I’ve been in a non-denominational church for 25 years, traveled about in the culture of Christianity, and I have yet to meet a single person that this hysterical screed describes. I simply don’t know anyone like this ridiculous and hateful caricature.
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ColorStorm said:
Glad you mentioned this madblog-
In light of ms byes own neighborhood, I can’t think of a regular patron who comes close to any of this::
—“…sex-obsessed, arrogant, bigoted, lying, greedy, ignorant, predatory and mean—”
Sure, there may be a slip up, but this is painted as the ‘professional believer………..’ Indeed sounds like brute beasts.
The normal christian? Uh, doubt it. The costumed sheep? Maybe a bit closer. Of course believers sin and we rue the day, but to revel? Highly unlikely.
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Eric said:
It really does sound more like the Mainstream Media stereotype than real life—there are some wingnuts out there like the Churchian Gamers, the Fred Phelps kooks, and some of the televangelists and fringe churches. But most of these are more like cults than churches. I’m actually Catholic, but most Protestants I know of despise these fringe groups and think they give all Christians a bad name.
The Whacko Left, though, gives these people attention and tries to make them representative of all Christians. For example, look at all the instances of terrorism and mass-shootings and riots/violence over the last 20 or so years. The media portrays Conservatives and Christians, as guilty of them in movies and TV dramas; whereas in reality, there are very few ever tied to the Right. Nearly all of the attackers turn out to be minorities, Moslems, drug-fiends, street trash, homosexuals; or some other type egged on and protected by the Left.
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ColorStorm said:
Yeah eric, forgot about the ‘Identity’ people, a true pimple on the face of the Way.
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madblog said:
Funny… today alone, on WordPress alone, I’ve been told I fear sex, I don’t want women to have pleasure, I want to control women and deny them the right to their own bodies, I’m not worth talking to, holier-than-thou, a shill, I want to make women suffer…and now, an ignorant bully, ETC.
And none of that came from the Christian brand.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I hear you, Madblog. I have actually had to search high and low to find believers who are anything but kind, but you know, cultural Christianity is still a real thing in the world, as are people doing some appalling stuff in His name. While I too have encountered the evangelizing atheists on the internet who call me names, I have also encountered the wolves disguised as Christians who have called me a few choice names too. I once wondered how people could possibly have such a negative view of Christians, but I don’t anymore, not since subjecting myself to their abuse. I get it. I’ve said before that if I thought some of His followers were representative of Christ, I’d would have refused to follow Him too.
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madblog said:
But it’s too fine a distinction for Mr. Z; he thinks you’re backing up his assessment of us all. Our brothers and sisters in the real body of Christ shouldn’t have us promoting this king of stuff.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“But it’s too fine a distinction for Mr. Z; he thinks you’re backing up his assessment of us all.”
I’m actually backing up Christ’s assessment of us all, the whole message of the cross, the idea that “none are worthy, not one.”
When people are abused at the hands of Christians, when they are made to feel unworthy, when they have been taught by his followers that God is a God of hatred, unforgiveness, and abuse, I simply cannot in good conscience fail to validate that truth, that experience. Telling people that we are not, that we’re all good and kind and would never harm another, isn’t the truth.
You and I and many others would never hurt a fly or bully anyone, but take it from an alleged “Jezebel, demon possessed, servant of the Father of all lies,” there really are people out there doing some ugly things in Christ’s name.
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john zande said:
And what, swim in your ignorance and bigotry and hatred? Make a redoubt where you can hide from reality, be anti-science, and scream from behind those walls, “You’re all going to burn!”?
Please. Listen, I was not going to engage this thread at all. I thought Insanity was bold in opening this page, brave, and this was a conversation for you evangelicals, not me.
That said, FYI, it wasn’t me who wrote the article, and all your anger and filth demonstrated here is, however, a perfect example of what that article is about. You’re toxic. It’s why 280,000 young people flee from evangelical Christianity every year in your country.
Now seriously, if believing in Jesus helps you be a better person, then GREAT! Believe all you like. Embrace it. Do it well, and mirror the message.
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madblog said:
Mr. Zande, you haven’t seen me do any of the things in your comment, let alone do you have any idea whether I match the hysterical fear-mongering description in this article cited.
IB, when Paul saw sin in the church, he didn’t go to the persecutors and tell them they were justified. He spoke to the offenders (and we have a clear Scriptural process for that!) about their sin, and commended others for their faithfulness to Christ’s command to love because it showed the world who God is. The list of “one anothers” we are exhorted to live out for one another is something other than what you’ve done here.
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Wally Fry said:
” but you don’t get to speak to me about the horrors of homosexuality while eroticizing women being tortured, while covering up child abuse, while engaging in outright racism. You lost the moral upper hand because you aren’t serving the Moral Upper Hand.”
Nice. Tough, but nice. Might we add that perhaps we should scream less about the destruction of traditional marriage while our divorce rate rivals that of the rest of the world. And don’t misunderstand my thoughts. Same sex marriage is an assault on the family, but we have done plenty of assaulting ourselves. I have done my share, in fact.
Good post IB
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insanitybytes22 said:
“I have done my share, in fact.”
Me too Wally, me too, but is that not really where our Kingdom authority actually comes from? Taking responsibility and surrendering to Christ? Isn’t that the whole point? Didn’t Christ come for the sinners? When evangelicals, or the church, or Christians in general forget that “while we were yet sinners, He died for us,” we’ve forgotten everything. We are not above reproach ourselves. When Christ returns in that final chapter, he doesn’t have a bone to pick with non believers, assorted sinners,and homosexuals, He has a bone to pick with the churches. We are the church, so, as “the church” we are being held to His standard, not the culture’s standard, not the political standard, but His.
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Wally Fry said:
Yep, you hit it IB. Take resposibility and surrender. Surrender. To Him. Not everything else in the world. I get it, we have to live in this world, but as it is said, this world is not our home, and our citizenship is already in Heaven.
All these things we rail against..well we should rail against them, as some are clearly wrong. Marriage between a man and a woman, the life unborn humans…all these things matter and we should hate them just as God does. However, however, however, we cannot be hating those who practice these things, because once that was each of us.
We scream at them because they don’t change, and never tell them how change comes. Sigh.
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futuret said:
ONE MAJOR BUT I MEAN MAJOR ILLUSTRATION OF THIS, PEOPLE CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN THE CREATOR, THAT MEANS THE CREATOR THAT HAS CREATED OUR BODIES AND SOULS. THEN AGAIN, THEY ARE STUPID AND REBELLIOUS TO SUPPORT TRUMP, WHO SAYS HE DOES NOT HAVE TO ASK THE CREATOR FOR, FORGIVENESS AND HE DOES NOT HAVE TO REPENT. WHY IN THE HELL, WOULD ANYONE GRAVITATE TOWARD TRUMP??? AS FOR ME, I REALLY DO NOT CARE FOR ANY OF THEM REGARDLESS OF WHAT PARTY, I DO NOT WANT TO BELONG TO ANY POLITICAL PARTY. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN EVERY COUNTRY CAPITALISM FOR THE RICH AND SOCIALISM FOR THE POOR. IF YOU LOOK AT THE COMMUNISTIC COUNTRIES ALL THE LEADERS LIVE WELL, WHILE THE CITIZENS ARE SLAVES. SO WHAT IF I AM A SLAVE, I AM A SLAVE THE KNOWS JESUS CHRIST, AND THAT IS MORE THAN ANYONE OF THEM DO. IF THEY KNEW JESUS CHRIST, THE WORLD WOULD NOT BE THIS A WAY. I LIVE AND BREATHE FOR THE DAY AND THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST. I AM PROUD OF THE GOSPEL AND SHALL DIE THIS WAY!!!
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insanitybytes22 said:
Good point Futuret. While people are free to support Trump as a political strategy, or because they like him or whatever, when 1/3 of so called evangelicals claim they are supporting him because he is a Christian, we got a serious problem. For goodness sakes, he doesn’t believe in the need for repentance or the Divinity of Christ and he states it plainly. So support him as a political candidate if you think that is wise, but don’t be out preaching to me about what a fine Christian he is.
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exanimo7 said:
Exactly.
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Rebecca LuElla Miller said:
Excellent post, IB. I agree with you and at the same time agree with madblog. I don’t know any people who fit the negatives you listed from John’s article. . . . And yet Westboro Baptist. That’s just one example. There are others, from what I can tell by spending some time on Facebook.
But here’s the thing. Scripture talks about false teachers who came from within the ranks of Christians, and of wolves in sheep’s clothing. Nothing has changed. Christians and the Christian culture has pretenders in our midst. From time to time we try to separate ourselves from those who are “cultural Christians,” who are “churchians” rather than people with a living relationship with Jesus Christ. We’ve adopted names like “Jesus people,” and “Jesus followers” or “born again Christians” or “Bible-believing Christians” (my personal favorite because the Bible does seem to be a separator). I think “Evangelicals” was just another effort to distinguish the pretend Christians from the real ones. But it never works because the Pretenders follow us into the sheepfolds we’re trying to erect.
The thing is, the people who are not in the sheepfold can’t tell churchians apart from Christians who are sinners saved by grace. We all sin, so we must look a lot alike.
But Scripture says there’s fruit that reveal who we really are. We just aren’t supposed to worry about other people’s fruit so much as we are about our own, I don’t think. In that vein, John’s caution early in the comments is right one. We’d all benefit from holding up the mirror of Scripture and asking God to search us and know us and see if there is any wicked way in us.
Becky
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
“Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country.” The largest? shattering.
Futuret – “TRUMP, WHO SAYS HE DOES NOT HAVE TO ASK THE CREATOR FOR, FORGIVENESS AND HE DOES NOT HAVE TO REPENT.”
He actually -blatantly – said that?
I doubt that even Cruz, (who is constitutionally ineligible to run for the Presidency) could tip the scales and bring back the America we lost. If Trump is an unrepentant sinner, not a Christian, then the dominoes are about to cascade again. Without Godly leadership, America will be toast.
This will bring another quantum leap in end times prophecy; we indeed need to take on the whole armor of God.
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john zande said:
People, the world isn’t about to end. We have problems, yes, but with a little thought and some good hardheartedness we can handle those problems. Don’t ever forget, we can be, at times, outrageously creative.
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
It won’t end the way secular humanists think; Atheists have been a colorful, if distressing element during my life’s path. “Good hardheartedness”?
All I can do is hope He reveals himself to you, efforts on my part when talking to “critical thinkers” have been unsuccessful; sadly skin to King Agrippa’s response to Paul’s testimony at his trial, in the 26th chapter of Acts: Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. [Acts 26:28]
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john zande said:
OK, thanks for that.
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OKRickety said:
What is the source for this claim? And, who gets to define who is an evangelical?
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
Ask Rebecca; I was responding to her comment.
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OKRickety said:
Partnering,
1. The comment thread shows you replying to the original post, not Rebecca.
2. Rebecca didn’t make the statement about evangelicals and porn.
3. I assumed you were agreeing with that statement, but maybe I misread it.
4. I’ll ask IB, who did make the statement.
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futuret said:
THE EVANGELICAL HAVE MADE A HUGH ERROR, WE SHOULD NOT AND NEVER ATTEMPT TO ACCOMPLISH IS TO COMBINE THE DEATH AND BLOOD OF OUR LORD AND MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST, WITH THAT OF BUSINESS AND POLITICS OF THE EVIL DOERS OF OUR TIME OR ANY TIME. WE MUST KEEP IN MIND THAT CHRIST HAS INSTRUCTED TO DO, AND THAT IS TO NOTE HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. WE MUST KEEP IN MIND THAT MANY OF THESE POLITICIANS NO MATTER HOW SMOOTH THEY MAY SEEM TO BE, ARE REALLY worshiping satan SECRETLY AND ARE DOING THEIR LEVEL BEST TO TRY US TO EVENTUALLY WEAR THE MARK OF THE BEAST. THIS MEANS ALL POLITICIANS OF THIS END TIME AND BE WARE. A LOT OF THEM HAVE HAD CONTACT WITH ETS ON HOW TO DESTROY THE HUMAN RACE AND ALL PEOPLES THAT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CREATED, BUT IF YOU TELL THIS TO ANYONE, THEY WOULD ASSUME YOU ARE CRAZY, AND DELUSIONAL, WHEN IN THE HOLY BIBLE DOES STATES SUCH EVENTS HAVE BEEN DONE. YES, THE FALLEN ANGLES ARE THE ETS (SPACE ALIENS) AND AFTER THE FLOOD OF NOAH SATAN DID HAVE HIS OWN KIND REPRODUCING AND ENTERING THE HUMAN RACE OF MANKIND. WHEN JESUS CHRIST RETURNS, ALL OF THIS WILL AND SHALL BE DESTROYED. WHEN JESUS CHRIST RETURNS, ALL INFINITE UNIVERSES SHALL BE CLEANED, AND THERE SHALL BE NO MORE WORRY FROM DEMONIC BEINGS. AT CHRIST THIRD COMING, THESE DEMONIC BEINGS SHALL HAVE A SURPRISE, WE WILL HAVE OBEYED IN OUR IMMORTALITY JESUS CHRIST, AND FROM THIS ALONE THEY SHALL KNOW THEY HAVE ACHIEVED NOTHING, AND BECAUSE WE ARE OBEYING JESUS CHRIST, AS HE SHALL “LEAVE US” FOR A SHORT SEASON AND OBEY HIM AND HAVE GIVEN US IMMORTALITY, THEM SEEING THIS SHALL PUT THEM TO AN ETERNAL DEATH AND THEY SHALL NOT EXIST IN ANY UNIVERSE CREATED BY OUR HEAVENLY FATHER YAHVEH. WHEN THEY SEE US GIVEN IMMORTALITY FROM JESUS CHRIST ALL DEMONS SHALL BE PUT TO AN ETERNAL DEATH. WE SHALL BE NOT gods, BUT BE GIVEN THANKS FOR EXPANDING AND SERVICING OUR SOULS FOR THE CREATOR OUR ONE AND ONLY THAT IS WITHIN THE ELOHIM OF CHRIST.
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john zande said:
Poe’s Law?
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futuret said:
JUST WANT TO SAY I LOVE YOU, AND YES WILL WILL HAVE TO PUT ON THE WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD. TOGETHER WE SHALL PUT THE ARMOUR ON TOGETHER. NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT TO FOCUS ON, ONLY THE RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST.
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futuret said:
PEOPLE ARE FOCUSING ON IMMEDIATE NEEDS, AND THEY DO NOT CARE OF ANY LIES, THEY THINK LIES ARE GOING TO SOLVE IMMEDIATE NEEDS, AND IN REALITY THEY ARE ONLY LIES. LIES HAVE NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING, AND HE IS MORE THAN A FRAUD, HE IS GOING TOTALLY AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE ALL MIGHTY. THEY ARE ALL LIES WHO ARE RUNNING, BUT HE IS ONE OF THE WORSE. NO I AM NOT VOTING AND DO NOT CARE TOO, I KNOW TOO MUCH TO VOTE AND THEN SOME!!!
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Remember an old Peanuts cartoon where Lucy is saying “Vote for the blockhead of your choice”?
We can’t just sit on the sidelines. Voting is our responsibility. Would you rather Hillary, despite all the evidence [Re Benghazi and other treasonous actions] be the next President? Sanders is the only other Dem candidate, and she is beating him at every turn. Stand up and be counted!
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thanks for that Dietrich Bonhoeffer quote. I’ve always loved that.
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
John – I found you do have a WP page; In your post Why? A Challenge to All Believers, the question you posed, “Why did your God create this Universe” is explained, though likely you won’t be satisfied with it. We were created for His good pleasure:
God rejoices in his works because his works are an expression of his glory.
This is what Psalm 19 makes very clear:
The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
So the most basic reason that God delights in his creation is that in creation he sees the reflection of his own glory, and therefore he is not an idolater when he delights in his work.
AND –
The Testimony of Genesis 1
Genesis 1 describes for us not only the fact of an ordered creation by God, but also God’s response to his creation. Five times, you recall, God stands back, as it were, and takes stock of his creation. Each time the text says, “And God saw that it was good” (vv. 4, 12, 18, 21, 25). And when all was finished and man and woman were created in his own image, it says, “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.”
I take this to mean that God was delighted with his work. When he looked at it, it gave him pleasure. He was pleased and happy with his creative effort.
[You can use the Bible to prove the Bible. Not having the passages memorized, I obtained this from http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-pleasure-of-god-in-his-creation%5D
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john zande said:
Cheers PARTNERING, that’s a fair and good answer (there never was a right or wrong), but I don’t think this is the place for that.
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
It IS the place for it – the only real answer; one can’t use secular knowledge to explain or prove/disprove the supernatural.
You “Missouri Mules” are intellectuals beyond compare. 🙂
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/the-pleasure-of-god-in-his-creation
Am uncertain why the “%5D” when it was supposed to be the end bracket. It will void the URL.
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PARTNERING WITH EAGLES said:
IB – Current subject being relevant; In preparing my “Upon This Rock” post, I’d been able to get feedback from a fellow member of the church I had found (after all these years) which stands on the Bible as their sole reference point, not fallible creeds and men’s teachings.
A former Catholic, he confirmed my investigations; including Catechism’s twisting the intent of that particular scripture, that was used to establish their lineage of Popes.
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lang3063 said:
Sorry I’m late. I’ll admit up front that I skimmed the comments so I also apologize if I’m redundant or raise questions that were already answered.
Zande’s article is enemy propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda must contain elements of truth to have credibility but context is everything. The rantings of Christ’s self-declared enemies should be dismissed for the foolishness they are, not referenced as guides to “help” His holy church.
As for your “red pills,” I’ll just repeat what you already pointed out: by their fruits you shall know them. NOT by what they choose to call themselves. Paul was clear on this: “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly…But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Dalrock’s fruit disqualifies him as a representative of Christ. End of story. I’m sorry if spiritual suckers fall for it but they are without excuse. The blame for his self-aggrandizing baloney and the foolishness of those who embrace it or use it as an excuse not to believe cannot be laid at the foot of the “Christian Brand.”
I won’t pretend that the Evangelical movement is perfect and trouble free. Neither will I throw genuine brothers and sisters under buses. If there were bullies attacking members of my family the last thing I’d do is tell those family members, “You know, that guy beating up on you has a point.”
Last but not least I would never presume to talk about someone else’s experience. I believe you when you talk about your own history with various shades of hypocrisy, arrogance and judgement. But here are your own words: “I have actually had to search high and low to find believers who are anything but kind…” Too often the things we post about are things we “know” from the media, the internet or someone’s blog. Consider everybody’s favorite whipping boy Westboro Baptist, often cited as “what’s wrong with Jesus Christ.” They are a tiny, TINY group of attention whores whose stated “beliefs” fall well outside scriptural Christianity. But the media and enemies of Christ give them a megaphone and we Evangelicals trip over each other to distance ourselves as we fall for the “do you still beat your wife ploy” again. How about we tear ourselves away from the telescreens and tend the gardens God has placed us in? What if we build up our flesh and blood brothers and sisters in our ACTUAL communities instead of reacting to lines of text about people we’ll never even meet, much less get to know?
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Zande’s article is enemy propaganda, pure and simple”
And we are called to love our enemies sometimes, especially when “our enemies” are our very own.
“The rantings of Christ’s self-declared enemies should be dismissed for the foolishness they are”
Except the Dalrocks and Vox Days of the world are the evangelicals, they are the alt right, and their fruits are foul, so foul they drive people away from faith. Your words would have me embrace those lunkeads as followers of Christ, while rejecting this woman as an enemy of Christ.
“I have actually had to search high and low to find believers who are anything but kind…”
It’s true! However, I am also inundated with people who have experienced a great deal of abuse at the hands of Christians. We throw genuine brothers and sisters under the bus every time we refuse to acknowledge it.
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madblog said:
God says in His word that He will preserve a remnant, that there will be sheep on one side (and goats on the other), that there will be wheat harvested (and tares burned), that there will be a Bride. There is a True Church. There is the Body of Christ.
God will do this, not us. He will see it done for Himself.
You speak as though there really is no difference, as though there are none faithful. I’ve never understood the impulse to self-flagellate, and I see it all the time. It’s a unthinking habit, to blame the world’s unbelief on our failure.
We can always, always do better. But the power of Christ to draw hearts is not overcome by hateful crackpots like the pills. And people have the power to choose.
On what basis do we believe the Dalrocks and others who behave in direct opposition to God’s law of love are evangelicals? I’m a teapot, want some tea? If we shall know them by their fruits, then we’d best admit what is obvious. And maybe we should stop giving the cranks a megaphone.
Matthew 10:
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake…
The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
That master they called Beelzebub was perfect, holy Love. If we are hated and maligned, it may not be because we’ve been “sex-obsessed, arrogant, bigoted, lying, greedy, ignorant, predatory and mean.” It may be they hate us because they do not want to love our Master.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“It may be they hate us because they do not want to love our Master.”
It may be, or it could be that they have experienced a great deal of abuse at the hands of those professing to be Christians and they now project that wounding onto all of us.
I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, but there are pedophiles within our churches, people who abuse their wives, their children, people who gossip, lie, cheat. Churches are made up of people and people have issues. None are worthy, not one.
It’s not self flagellation, it’s an awareness that there have been people deeply wounded by those professing Christ and rather than being honest about that, so many of us would just say, “oh well, the world’s unbelief is not my failure.”
Well, to some degree it is my failure. It’s mine every time I ignore somebody’s pain, every time I chose the favor of people over the Lord’s favor, and every time I refuse to speak the truth because I perceive faith as a a marketing brand in need of protection and defense rather than a proper dose of sunlight.
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madblog said:
IB, both what I’m trying to say (poorly) and what you are saying are true, and not really in conflict. Certainly there are people in the church, either as impostors or true believers, who go off the rails and do real damage, of course. We fight our natural man every minute and sometimes let him have his (our) way, of course.
The “Christian” media subculture just about makes me ill. And those who use the label “Christian” for media image, esp. candidates make me angry.
But the picture presented by that piece that Zande cited does not, does not, characterize the true church that God is keeping for Himself. My only point was that, in my opinion, you have given Z permission in this post to say that: here’s a Christian that agrees totally with MY accusations of the religionuts.
And that’s a shame, because the true church does not brag about the good it does. Missionaries don’t have awards ceremonies and public relations firms. The people who do good things motivated by love for our Savior do not let their left hands know what their right hands are doing.
We’re supposed to love one another to the extent that we’ll lay down our lives for one another. The world is supposed to know us by our love for one another.
We also need to realize that no matter what we do or how perfect our love is, there will be those who hate us, as they hated Jesus.
I just didn’t think that this post was helpful in our love for one another way because the true followers were being lumped together with the most outrageous hypocrites and the distinctions were lost IN THE EYES OF OUR ACCUSERS. (Sorry for caps—I’m not yelling —I don’t know how to do “bold” in comments!)
I’ll shut up now. I am truly sorry if I sounded accusatory or offensive, it wasn’t my intention to “call you out” but it probably looked like it. I know your heart’s in totally the right place and I have respected your views and your unique way of expressing them all along! I hope there are no hard feelings at all!
I think we ought to go back to that place of personal interaction called the local church and the Scriptural processes for correcting one another, exhorting one another, bearing one another’s burdens, as well as cultivating the beautiful relationships God gives us there. That’s where all the righting of all the error really happens!
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insanitybytes22 said:
There are no hard feelings, Madblog, and certainly this post was not speaking of all of those Christians that really do lay down their very lives loving one another.
“you have given Z permission in this post to say that: here’s a Christian that agrees totally with MY accusations of the religionuts.”
I have. I do agree with Zande’s accusation about “religionuts.” Those of us in faith need to speak out against those kinds of people, too. Non believers may well continue to try to paint us all with the same brush, but that doesn’t make it true. In Christ’s day he had pharisees and money lenders and all kinds of ugly going on in the name of religion. He spoke against it, vehemently. “Not in my Father’s house..”
I hear you, I am often lumped together with the child abusers, with those who allegedly oppress women, with the ignorant, the delusional, etc, etc, and while I should like to just take offense and to declare those accusers to be the enemy, love really compels me to scratch beneath the surface and ask what is driving all those false allegations.
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futuret said:
I AGREE NOT EVERYONE IN OUR CHURCHES AND SYNAGOGUE, ARE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE. I REMEMBER DECADES AGO LISTENING TO THE ART BELL SHOW, AS I AM A NEWS JUNKY ON MANY TOPICS. ON HIS RADIO SHOW HE HAD A LOYAL, DEVOTE SATANIST, AND SHE EXPLAINED HOW THEY INFILTRATE THE CHURCH TO TRY TO OBTAIN MEMBERS FOR satan. THE CHURCHES AND SYNAGOGUES HAVE BECOME A TOO MANY MELTING POT OF A DIVERSITY. THERE ARE SYNAGOGUES WHO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH JEWISH SO CALL MEMBERS, JUST LIKE WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH SO CALLED GENTILE MEMBERS, TO PAINT A BROAD STROKE. COMMUNISTS AND SATANISTS HAVE INFILTRATED EVERYWHERE. WE DO NEED TO BE OBSERVANT. ONE PLACE WE CAN START IS TO WATCH THE POLITICIANS WHOEVER IN THE CHURCH, THOSE WITH GREAT DEALS OF MONEY, AND THOSE CHURCHES WHO ARE TAKING IN GRANTS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THIS IS ONLY A PIECE OF THE FOUNDATION.
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oneta hayes said:
My, my, my! I guess I am a churchian, does that mean a person who goes to a church regularly. I went twice today. I’m sitting here wondering just what we did that enrages anyone so! I taught a small class of sweet ladies who I guess are also churchians. We discussed things from the book of Acts. How groups of people began to fellowship together, how the church brought together the Jews and the Gentiles, how the gospel was carried into all parts of the known world. One lady asked how extensive the global world was in that day. I promised to bring a map next Sunday. We prayed for a few of our sick folks and relatives. We prayed for a successful “Feed the Poor” day which is coming up this month. Our church bulletin instructed us to bring food. Vans will bring the street people from downtown; there will also be people brought from churches there. A member gave me some tickets to sell for a Taco dinner that the women’s ministry will be conducting. The money will be used for clean water well in some country, I don’t remember where. The preacher urged us to “humble ourselves, pray, seek God’s face and turn from our wicked ways.” We sang songs that reminded us of the gift of God’s love and the precious price Jesus paid by the sacrifice he made on the cross to redeem us from our sins. I saw one of the young men helping our “clothes closet” lady unload the donation storage unit so the stuff could be taken back and sorted for distribution through our pantry and closet buildings. We practiced some special music to sing for Easter. We shook hands and hugged shoulders. Was it possible there was a “luster” among those huggers? Well, I guess it was possible, but I suggest it was highly unlikely. But I will say if there was one he/she was welcome and prayed for. Let God be responsible to use our love and welcome to break the heart of that person. We all admit to the need for being accountable to each other and to God. The church as a wonderful vehicle for that. Perhaps more people should study the book of Acts and find out whether or not it (church) is a Godly institution. This is rather long but for the life of me, I cannot see how what we did should be so hated by anyone.
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OKRickety said:
@IB,
You say “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country.”
What is the source for this claim? And, who gets to define who is an evangelical?
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well, I could dig up the links for you, post the polls and surveys that have been done, show you the evangelicals who do ministry for all the people recovering from porn addictions, but I don’t really want to get into a debate about whether or not evangelicals are sinners or not, because of course they are. That debate always leads to well, they weren’t really evangelicals or those aren’t really Christians. Nonsense, of course they are.
Christians sin just like everyone else, which was really my point and for us to deny this or to defend it is to defend the indefensible. Good and Godly men often struggle with porn and some don’t struggle at all, some actually advocate it. Still others are healing from it. That’s a fact and we do more to promote healing when we are truthful about it rather than defensive.
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OKRickety said:
“Christians sin just like everyone else, which was really my point.”
I agree with that point, but do not understand why you emphasized the failure of “evangelicals”. You did say the church has hypocrites, but you give several derogatory references to “Evangelicals” without doing the same with any other Christian grouping. (I consider the “religious right” to be a political grouping, not a Christian grouping.)
One example was your statement that “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country.” I find this highly unlikely, because the Pew Research Group says evangelicals are about 25% of the US population. So, whether considering the rate of porn usage or the amount of porn usage, evangelicals would need to exceed it by 3 times that of the non-evangelical population to be “the largest consumers of porn in the country”. And, even if evangelicals were as much as 33% of the US population, the rate would need to exceed 2 times the rate of the rest. (Note: I agree that porn usage is sin, and it is troubling that Christians are sinning in this fashion. In no way am I defending evangelicals who are sinning in this way or any other.)
I challenge you to substantiate the claim.
If you cannot do so, or decline to do so, please remove it. There are already more than enough negative, false beliefs about Christians and evangelicals. There is no need for another one to be perpetuated, allowing Satan to continue his war against the church.
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john zande said:
There’s been quite a few studies, all returning very similar results, but here is an article on just one: Religious conservatives lead the nation in search for porn
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/10/religious-conservatives-lead-the-nation-in-search-for-porn/
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OKRickety said:
It’s interesting that the link you provide is from the “Progressive Secular Humanist”. You don’t suppose they might have a biased perspective against religion or conservatism, do you? The title is “Religious conservatives lead the nation in search for porn”, although the study itself (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0361-8#page-1) states “At minimum, these internet-search data clearly demonstrate that those living in states with greater proportions of very religious or conservative citizenry nonetheless seek out and experience the forbidden fruit of sexuality in private settings.”
It is interesting that the abstract for this study mentions non-traditional sexual behavior, sexual content, and sex, but it never uses the word pornography. Perhaps it is in the study itself. Nonetheless, the article you link puts the word porn in the title.
A careful reading would note that, although the study says “religious or conservative”, the web link title implies the two groups are tied together. The study also recognizes that the data could be a reflection of the less religious and the less conservative residents of those states.
Overall, the study does not strongly support the statement that “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country.”. I suppose that you do, and there is insufficient motivation for me to request better evidence.
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john zande said:
As I said, there have been numerous studies, including one by the porn industry itself, if I recall. All point ot the same conclusions. If you doubt the information, then Google is your friend.
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OKRickety said:
I use Google, of course, and I reach my conclusions by reading with comprehension, thinking critically, and logically analyzing and synthesizing the information I find.
Not only do I doubt the statement “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country”, after researching the topic on the internet, my conclusion is that the statement is almost certainly false. I will explain my reasoning below in my reply to IB.
I expect you believe the statement is true, as it likely fits nicely into your view of Christianity.
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john zande said:
Evangelicals, and more specifically, US evangelicals: Smut in Jesusland: Why Bible Belt States are the Biggest Consumers of Online Porn
Here’s another article with numerous linked studies.
http://valerietarico.com/2014/10/16/smut-in-jesusland-why-bible-belt-states-are-the-biggest-consumers-of-online-porn/
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insanitybytes22 said:
“There is no need for another one to be perpetuated, allowing Satan to continue his war against the church.”
How do we as individuals win a spiritual war against Satan? Do we sweep our sin under the rug declare ourselves righteous? Or do we admit our faults and avail ourselves of Christ’s mercy and protection?
The church should follow suit when it comes to redemption and salvation. The moment we start to believe that we can just launch a good public relations campaign and win the battle against Satan, we’ve lost the whole war.
“There are already more than enough negative, false beliefs about Christians and evangelicals.”
While I empathize here, so what? I mean, people in some places are being executed and tortured for their faith, and our biggest concern is that some people might think poorly of us? That is a major symptom of what is wrong in the Western church. We’re always trying to lobby a public relations campaign rather than simply saying, yes, we’re sinners too, now come join us, we know a better way, The Way.
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OKRickety said:
I have clearly stated that “porn usage is sin, and it is troubling that Christians are sinning in this fashion”. I agree that we should admit our faults and avail ourselves of Christ’s mercy.
I think it has been said that Christian hypocrisy is the most-cited reason given by non-Christians for avoiding Christians. Your statement “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country” provides more fuel to that claim of hypocrisy. If it’s not true, then why would you want to do that? It’s not a public relations campaign, but speaking the truth.
It would have been true if you had instead said “Christians sin with porn at an alarming rate”. Your point would be clear. Instead, you directly point at evangelicals as if they are the only Christians who are sinning so grievously. There is no doubt that you are angry, and you primarily target evangelicals as if they are the only Christians that sin.
Our biggest concern is to follow God completely, followed by loving our neighbors as ourselves.
[Matt. 22:37-39 NASB] 37 And He said to him, ” ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 “This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
And here is how we will best love our neighbors:
[Matt. 28:19-20 NASB] 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Christ commands us to teach disciples to observe all that He commands, but He first commands to make disciples. Perhaps these would be the 3rd-most and 4th-most important commandments.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Your statement “Evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country” provides more fuel to that claim of hypocrisy.”
Actually, it’s the denial of that truth that leads to the claims of hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy is “the contrivance of a false appearance of virtue or goodness, while concealing real character or inclinations.”
When we as evangelicals spend all our time concealing the truth and trying to create a contrived appearance of virtue, we not only open ourselves up to accusations of hypocrisy, we make others feel as if they are not worthy to be Christians.
Sometimes I am angry yes, because we spend too much time trying to declare ourselves virtuous and everyone else to be sinners, and when we do that the gospel we are offering is one of contrived grace and false piety, one people rightfully reject.
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OKRickety said:
I do (and did) understand the definition of hypocrisy. I agree that some Christians are hypocritical. Christ specifically addressed this issue here:
[Luke 12:1 NASB] 1 Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
I understand that the hypocrisy of some Christians was your primary point in the original post! Would you accept that and address the question of the accuracy of your statement that “evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country”? This statement is not essential to your argument. Let me explain why.
According to the article Pornography Use and Addiction, a study done by Proven Men Ministries states “Approximately two-thirds (64%) of U.S. men view pornography at least monthly. The number of Christian men viewing pornography virtually mirrors the national average.”
Also, Table 1.8 in the article shows 30% of non-Christian women view porn at least monthly, while only 15% of Christian women (some of whom are probably evangelical) do. (I am surprised at these percentages, as I would have expected women’s porn usage to be only about 10% of men’s usage, not in the 25-45% range.)
According to the Pew Research Group, evangelicals are about 25% of the US population (and, for what it’s worth, 71% of US is Christian).
It would take an astonishingly high rate of porn usage by evangelicals (25% of the US population) to make them “the largest consumers of porn in the country” by any measure. I think that unlikely for various reasons, for example, the General Social Survey date for the year 2000 states that those who are politically more liberal are 19% more likely to look at porn, and, I suspect, evangelicals are likely to be more politically more conservative.
Based on this information, I think the statement “evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country” is almost certainly false.
However, the statement “Christians are the largest consumers of porn in the country” is almost certainly true. That is a scathing indictment of Christianity!
Note: I would not have believed this statement before researching the question.
I wish you would accept that it is extremely unlikely that “evangelicals are the largest consumers of porn in the country”, and change your post to say “Christians are the largest consumers of porn in the country”. Changing this would not be concealing the truth, but, instead, it would be removing a likely falsehood and replacing it with truth. However, I doubt that you will. It is my suspicion that, for whatever reason, you have a vested interest in continuing to claim the statement is true. Your insistence smacks of self-righteousness, a close relative to hypocrisy.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“Your insistence smacks of self-righteousness, a close relative to hypocrisy.”
Well, I consider myself an evangelical Christian, so it seems if I were interested in being self righteous and hypocritical, I would be more likely to want to bury the truth than to speak it.
Also, I am not sure how or why you would want to break down the definitions so “evangelicals” are not represented as part of Christians as a whole? I mean, you would be fine if I said, “Christians are the largest consumers of porn in the country,” but the fact that I said “evangelicals,” bothers you?
Politically speaking, I don’t have the link handy at the moment, but there was an interesting study a while back that demonstrated that liberals probably do not in fact, consume more porn than conservatives. There is the forbidden fruit nature of porn, the lack of sexual awareness within the body of Christ, the commitment to abstinence and monogamy, all things that influence people of a more conservative bent. That is not an argument against those values by any means, but simply an attempt to understand what drives so many Christians to porn in the first place.
“That is a scathing indictment of Christianity!”
It’s unfortunate and sad, but are we not all “indicted” already? Is that not the whole point? Aren’t we all sinners in need of redemption?
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OKRickety said:
As you are no doubt aware, words have meanings. That’s why we use them to communicate. For example, evangelical is not synonymous with Christian, nor is self-righteous the same as hypocritical.
“Well, I consider myself an evangelical Christian, so it seems if I were interested in being self righteous and hypocritical, I would be more likely to want to bury the truth than to speak it.”
If you were interested in being hypocritical, that would make sense. But if you desire (whether consciously or not) to be self-righteous, you instead want others to hear what you know is the truth.
Self-righteous is “having or characterized by a certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is totally correct or morally superior.”
The problem is that you are being self-righteous, but you don’t recognize it.
I daresay you consider yourself to be a non-hypocritical evangelical, not one of those hypocritical evangelicals. Oh, you don’t say that, but it’s clear from your words. For example, “I’ve earned the right” to speak “harsh words”, “I am self righteously angry, morally indignant”, and “you” [evangelical hypocrites] “aren’t serving the Moral Upper Hand”. In other words, you consider yourself to be morally superior to them. That is being self-righteous.
[Note: It’s interesting that you said you are “self righteously angry”, when I think you meant you are “righteously angry”.]
“Also, I am not sure how or why you would want to break down the definitions so “evangelicals” are not represented as part of Christians as a whole? I mean, you would be fine if I said, “Christians are the largest consumers of porn in the country,” but the fact that I said “evangelicals,” bothers you?”
You are misunderstanding. (Did you really think I was considering evangelicals and Christians to be two non-overlapping groups? If so, that would mean evangelicals and Christians would comprise 95% of the US population.) Evangelicals are a subset of Christians. I thought it was clear that evangelicals are about 25% of the US population, Christians are 70% of the US population, and evangelicals are Christians (about 35% of Christians are evangelical).
In other words, “Christians are the largest consumers of porn in the country” includes evangelicals. They’re not getting off the hook. They are part of the problem.
“That is a scathing indictment of Christianity!”
It’s unfortunate and sad, but are we not all “indicted” already? Is that not the whole point? Aren’t we all sinners in need of redemption? ”
You said “Christians sin just like everyone else, which was really my point and for us to deny this or to defend it is to defend the indefensible.”, so, no, that is not the whole point. In your original post, you especially emphasize the hypocrisy of denying or defending our sin. It’s my opinion that this was actually your primary point. The fact that we are all sinners is a necessary foundation for that point.
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futuret said:
ONE SIGN THAT JESUS CHRIST IS ABOUT TO RETURN, AND MOST PEOPLE DO NOT NOTICE, IS THAT WE ARE LIVING IN AN AGE OF DECEPTION. SOME OF THE MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE ARE WITHIN THE CHURCH, HILLARY FOR EXAMPLE PRETENDS TO BE METHODIST, BUT SECRETLY worships satan, AND SO DOES TRUMP TOGETHER MEETING WITH THIS worship WITH OPHRA WINFREY. WE HAVE MEMBERS OF CHURCHES THAT ARE MEMBERS OF CRIME FAMILIES, AND MINISTERS, PASTORS, ETC…SEEM TO ACCEPT THEM, WITHOUT REQUESTING THEM TO MAKE A DOMINANT CHANGE IN THE WAY THEY LIVE. I READ ANOTHER ARTICLE ON PASTORS AND PORN SOMETIME AGO, AND THEN AGAIN THERE WERE SEVERAL THANKS FOR THE LINK.
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Steve Morris said:
I think that you perhaps have more in common with my (atheist) outlook, than with the so-called Evangelical Christian one. Outside appearances may be very different, but it’s what’s inside that matters.
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insanitybytes22 said:
You are so right, it is what is inside that matters. Appearances mean very little.
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Jack Curtis said:
Human nature appears unchanged over the past 2,000 years nor has Christ’s prescription for its most favorable management. Christian behavior, in the custody of Christian churches, has however ranged from the old “See how they love each other!” of ancient Roman observation, through Inquisition, Reformation genocides and mass conversions via conquest up to today’s casual abandonment of institutional Christianity. The ‘Christian Era’ seems to have ended as do all things constructed by human means.
No matter. The unchanged prescription remains; the resulting maximization of human lives will reappear in due course. It is the only guide that works. Our human organizational additions are failing of their own imperfections; the center has held. The rest will as the Greeks saw, arise again as a new Phoenix. Meantime, each of us has the personal choice that is all that matters in the end … or so it seems to me. And you are holding up a light that will encourage any in need of it as we struggle through the growing darkness. As usual, lights will be too few and hard to hold up. But they will appear as needed …
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen! Thanks for those words and for your comment, they are much appreciated.
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Anna Waldherr said:
An absolutely TERRIFIC post!!
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Grace and Truth Ministries International said:
You are in your element. Excellent word!
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you 😉
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