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atheists, blogging, culture, evolution, faith, insanitybytes, intelligence, opinion
It is always possible that you have managed to solve the Christian riddle, that you have found the truth, that you have exposed the man behind the curtain. It is always possible that you have now cleverly reasoned your way to a place that billions of people who have walked before you could never find.
It is always possible that you are now much smarter than the nearly 3 billion believers currently on the planet. I suppose such things can happen. It is possible that 3 billion people who have allegedly evolved just as you have, have somehow managed to get it all wrong. Perhaps you are not really a member of the human race, perhaps through some evolutionary quirk you have attained a level of intelligence not often seen among the others.
Perhaps you are an entirely new species, one capable of rising above and beyond the mere mortals, one not affected by the human experience, a new and improved version, so vastly intelligent, you need not even bother to take the human experience into account at all. Perhaps you are correct, perhaps 3 billion of your less evolved brothers and sisters have been deceived in such obvious and transparent ways, even a child should be able to see it.
Anything is possible, never say never. You may well be orbiting around on some plane of existence that has somehow managed to elude the 3 billion others.
Or, perhaps Occam’s razor applies here. Perhaps the simplest, most obvious explanation is that your own thinking is flawed, that your own misunderstanding is deeply ingrained, that the highly evolved plane of existence that now separates you from 3 billion other humans is simply a figment of your own imagination.
Not that it needs to really be said, but God sacrificed Himself to save us from the nature of our own selves. This creature He made, this creature of dirt, after being clearly told and warned of what the consequences of our own actions would be, went ahead and decided to defy the Creator of the universe and give it a go anyway. You shall surely die!
God in His infinite mercy however, did not allow us to die off right than, He gently clothed us in skins and set us forth into the world, already having a plan to redeem us, a seed born of woman who would not only walk the Earth to experience what we experience, but who would also go on to give up His very life for us.
That is the God I know. He sacrificed Himself to save us from our own selves. We have victory too, His victory! We are wonderfully and fearfully made, in His image, called to reach towards our higher selves, to fully embrace Him.
Or to separate yourself from those other 3 billion humans and from God Himself, because you as a little quirk of vastly superior evolution, have somehow managed to go where no man has gone before. 3 billion to one, however? Those are odds only a fool would bet on.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Well said, and Amen! J.
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I concur with Salvageable, very, very well said. You hit the nail on the head with this special knowledge many Atheists believe they hold; that they’ve figured out something new that billions of people before them just missed. I would say that in itself is a belief system, just as surely as any other.
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“It is always possible that you have now cleverly reasoned your way to a place that billions of people who have walked before you could never find.”
Chronological snobbery at its finest. Great post IB, thanks.
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There are 2 billion Christians, leaving 5.73 billion non-believers in your particular flavour of religion. However, there are only 300 million evangelicals, and that number is plummeting at astonishing rates, meaning roughly 7.4 billion people presently on earth disagree with your religion. Apologies, Inanity, but it would appear that your “appeal to popularity” wasn’t terribly well thought-through 😉
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And BTW, I’m being very, very generous with those numbers. I don’t believe for one second that the Catholic figure (1.3 billion) is anywhere even close to being true. Remember, i’m still counted in that number… there is no dis-enrollment option.
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The main rationale offered by atheists (including Jefferson, who rewrote the Bible to cast Jesus as an enlightened philosopher) is that science “disproves” spirituality. I have pointed out that science does no such thing, and that in fact it appears possible that our explanations of the operation of the universe would be greatly simplified if we chose to accommodate spirituality, rather than denying it.
If we broaden the category of “believers” to include any person accepting the existence of the soul, then the numbers are much larger (even including the oxymoron category of atheists such as Sam Harris). This seems fair, because after all the atheist declares a pox on all our houses.
You’ll be interested to know, John, that somehow I have been counted in the number that have read your “parody of fundamentalism.” Which I haven’t. People have all kinds of political purposes in purporting membership, don’t they?
However, I agree that much of the fundamentalist reading of the Bible confounds the purposes declared by Jesus. Fundamentalism (into which I lump the “red pill” phenomenon) isn’t worth defending as part of the Christian message – it needs to be exposed and its wounds healed. I think that for the most part IB takes that work seriously, and it would be nice if you would show her courtesy. Yes, she may bite back at times, but look at that preacher who endorsed Ted Cruz last year: he announced at his Christian values conference that he was on a Biblical mission to kill all homosexuals. Now that’s a target worth subjecting to satire.
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Hi Brain
The main rationale offered by atheists (including Jefferson, who rewrote the Bible to cast Jesus as an enlightened philosopher) is that science “disproves” spirituality.
Um, no. Science has nothing to say (positive or negative) about “spirituality.” Period.
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That’s not the rationale offered by Jefferson.
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Or, I should add, the rationale offered by a vast majority of the atheists that I’ve encountered.
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With all due respect, no it’s not.
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Oh, John. Really. You are contradicting my testimony of my own experience? You can say: “Well, that’s not my experience,” and even reference recent conference proceedings from atheist gatherings to back up your statement. But to tell me that my experience is not my experience is just – well, I hesitate to supply a word.
I would be interested in any evidence on this point because if we admit to the existence of the soul then we have to explain how it arises through a process of material evolution. If that is not possible (and I don’t know any proposed mechanism) then we have to ask where souls come from, and we are led pretty rapidly down the slippery slope to deity – either an external deity, or deities that arise in this reality through some organizing process that predates Darwinian evolution, and therefore quite probably allows access to energies more powerful than those accessible to our material bodies.
It seems that atheism as a philosophy is then relegated to a political position. In essence, the proposition is “We don’t like what people do in the name of God, so we’re going to deny God completely.”
My choice has been to gird up my loins and try to reclaim our connection with God from those that have poured poison into it.
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I’m not contradicting your personal experience. I’m not even talking about your experiences. What I am saying is it can’t be measured, and as science, as method, is nothing really but measurement of observed phenomena, science has nothing to say (positive or negative) about “spirituality.” That was your claim. It’s a false claim, as nothing you are referring to can be studied. It is not an observed phenomenon, so science is silent on the matter. Sure, studies can be made on the periphery, like the effectiveness of intercessory prayer, which the Templeton Foundation has conducted, but as for “spirituality,” no less someone’s personal experiences, it can say nothing because there is nothing to directly measure.
And atheism has no philosophy. It is content free.
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Well, John, I am saddened to read that you believe that spirituality doesn’t exist. I hope that you find it some day. Among a community steeped in trust, it is an incredibly beautiful and rewarding part of life.
And I am dismayed that the substitute that you hold forth (atheism) appears to you to be “content free.” I hope that you find something to believe in some day.
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Atheism is content free, although this does not stop apologists fashioning elaborate strawmen to satisfy their emotional needs. Anti-theism has content. Humanism has content. Secularism has content. Atheism? Nope. Meditate on that and I assure you, you will see I am right.
Where did I write “spirituality doesn’t exist,” Brian? I believe I said science has nothing to say about spirituality (which you wrongly claimed it did). You’d be mindful not to put words in other people’s mouth, Brian. To do so demonstrates an enormous disrespect for honest dialogue.
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Lol. “Science has nothing to say about spirituality.” Says who? Who made you the ultimate authority on all things? Well, I say that I can reconcile science and spirituality – that the evidence of science is that spirituality is an obvious outcome of the structure of this reality!
Sorry,John, I’m not going to invest energy in thinking about your parody any longer. I’ve got meaningful things to do with my life. You’ve stolen enough of my energy over the last year. I will, however, continue to demonstrate that I know how to protect the people I love, and enlarge the domain in which they are free to offer their unique gifts to the world. I entered into this dialog with you for that purpose, and that purpose only.
As I Christian, I understand that is not our responsibility to save people from themselves. Nor is it ours to punish them, because they punish themselves by isolating themselves from love. But it is essential to raise our voices against the nihilism that they spread – to celebrate love and hope for the purpose of giving strength to others.
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Can you show me a published paper in a scientific journal dealing with “spirituality” as a quantifiable thing? Can you show me a single university science subject or discipline that deals in “spiritual matters”?
If so, show me.
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There are out there, John. I have better things to do.
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You know of a university science faculty that teaches spirituality?
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Oh! An appeal to convention? See – you are still a member of the Catholic Church! That’s just what they said about Galileo!
And, of course, before Einstein, did anyone teach Special or General Relativity?
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An appeal to convention? Um, no. You made the claim ”The main rationale offered by atheists (including Jefferson, who rewrote the Bible to cast Jesus as an enlightened philosopher) is that science “disproves” spirituality.” This is a false claim. Science is silent on the matter, as I have already explained.
You’re free to undertake a scientific investigation. No one is stopping you. If you believe you have some novel approach then I’d support you 100% to open that field to scientific enquiry. In case you’ve forgotten, in the past I’ve even shown you where you can get funding for your work: The Templeton Foundation. They are set up precisely for such investigations. They have over $2 billion dollars in their research fund. They finance “research” into “spiritual realities.” I’ve told you all this before.
Have you contacted them? I would strongly encourage you to do so. Make it real. Do it.
If and when you present your hypothesis, and detail the experimental method you’ll be using, I’d be thrilled to review it.
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I don’t recall your prior reference to the Templeton Foundation. The Generative Orders proposal was originally written as a draft for submission to the Foundation, roughly seven years ago. I couldn’t get my friends in the National Laboratory system to help me flesh it out. It requires a serious computation physics study, and I was hoping that they would try to stir up some support that I could take before the Templeton Foundation. I was rebuffed – most of them wouldn’t even give me the time of day. It might be worth trying again, particularly given some of the details I’ve put together in posts in my blog.
What I’ve learned, however, is that face-to-face meetings are still incredibly important, particularly for someone who is not active in the field. The immediate reaction is to treat me as a crank, and breaking through that requires meetings and more meetings. So much is tied to my getting out of the sleepy bedroom community I’m living in and into an environment with people that are actually interested in ideas. I’m looking for new employment opportunities now.
But really, John, there are a large number of experimental studies. They are pooh-poohed because there is no theoretical framework. In fact, the two sets of experimentalists tend to talk past each other largely because spirit doesn’t exist as a phenomenon in quantum mechanics and relativity. I’m offering the theoretical framework- a complete unified theory of physics that includes spirituality. When that stumbling block is removed, people on both sides will have to eat a lot of crow and then get on with trying to save the world together.
And it’s not like I don’t have other things to pay attention to. I tried to write two fiction books to explain the nature of my experience of reality. Nobody has read them, but they illustrate just how complex and vague and fuzzy the process is. In fact, convincing the scientists that I’m right just isn’t a priority right now. My priority is to heal Christianity of the mess that its institutions have bred in it. An important aspect of that is for people of faith to believe that there’s a bridge between them and science – that in fact the Bible recounts aspects of Darwinian Evolution that were only known in the last 150 years. (There’s evidence for you!) With that confidence restored, we can stop arguing about facts and get down to talking about how we fulfill our responsibilities as stewards of this planet.
So the reason that I engage you here is to build hope and confidence in the community of faith. They may not understand the science, but it’s obvious that I have no reason to lie to them – I’m not asking them for anything, I’m just trying to build hope.
That’s my job. To give people confidence that love works.
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You have a friend in me regarding the stewardship of this planet. You have a supporter in me regarding any effort to push the envelope of human knowledge. Do approach the Templeton Foundation again. My advice would be to first contact existing and past grant recipients and talk to them about how best to proceed. Of course, Templeton are trying (and rightly trying, I believe) to keep their projects “scientific,” so you will have to think about method and experimentation. You have to think data and replication. Can the phenomena be measured, and if so, how? And don’t forget, misses are just as important (and educational) as hits.
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Thanks, John. I’ll look into it. I’ve also got a friend in Shamballic circles who may be able to connect me into the Dalai Lama’s research network. I should reach out to him.
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Or how about this – this is fun: Can you find a scientific paper with the words “bouncing baby buggy bumper” in it? Does this mean that science has nothing to say about the matter?
Science is supposed to explain our experience of reality. My experience of reality includes irrefutable evidence of phenomena typically lumped under the category of “spirituality.” As I scientist, the onus is on me to seek an explanation for those phenomena. I am aware of other scientists that struggle with the same set of issues. They have their own peer reviewed journals, which are generally pooh-poohed by the publications subscribed to by the academics.
The reason for this preference is that spirituality is a universal part of human experience that doesn’t require capital equipment funding to produce benefits. Academic physics is driven by the construction of large-scale engineering projects such as satellites, telescopes and particle colliders. Those seeking to defend the capital equipment budgets denounce studies of spirituality because it confounds their theories, and therefore undermines the perceived value of the work that they do.
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As I scientist, the onus is on me to seek an explanation for those phenomena.
Yes, it is. If I recall, I encouraged you some time ago to seek funding from the Templeton Foundation to conduct such work.
Did you ever reach out to them?
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Mr. Zande is really enamored by your “brain” Dr. Brian 🙂
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Oh dear, I’ve done it again. I assure you, it’s not intentional.
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I know… sorry I didn’t let it go un-noticed; but I know Brian would have noticed 🙂
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John,
re: science and spirituality; have you ever heard of or read John G. Lakes “The Science of Divine Healing” or do a (re)search of the more than 100,000 documented (YES, documented) healings that took place at his healing rooms in Spokane, Washington alone.
You can also do a search to find out all the scientific testing that he underwent. How they were conducted, by whom, the results etc.
Check it out!
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I might. Could you tell me first why, though, this method is not taught in universities?
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You would have to ask the universities why they don’t teach this method.
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Charis Bible College does a live stream of their healing school every Thursday.
Here’s a link. It’s @ 1 PM MST. so begins in the next 30 mins. Again check it out. I’m providing you all these for a reason.
http://www.charisbiblecollege.org/watch-charis-live
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10 minutes of songs. I think that’s enough. Thanks for the opportunity to see it, though. It’s appreciated.
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Don’t chicken out so early John…
I appreciate you watching though.. thank you
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I take issue with your conclusions on evangelicals John, as I don’t believe a drop in their numbers is akin to a drop in belief in God and/or Christianity. The studies I’ve read show an enormous boost in the numbers of those who claim belief in God but remain non denominational when it comes to categorizing themselves as part of a religion.
It’s also important to disclose which sect of evangelicals you are referring to. Pew has done a number of studies on this which I had thought concluded evangelical Protestants to be on the rise.
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In Africa, perhaps. Evangelicals have been very active there with their Kill the Gays campaigns. In the US, absolutely not. John S. Dickerson (an evangelical himself), in The Great Evangelical Recession (p. 26), writes: “In the next decades we will see a massive decrease in evangelical influence politically, economically, culturally, and financially. 260,000 evangelical young people walk away from Christianity each year.”
260,000 jettison evangelical religion every year in the US. Quite a number.
Regardless, Insanity’s “appeal to popularity” was poorly placed.
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Again John, jettisoning religion and jettisoning faith are two very different things. Nice try too slipping in a reference to African evangelicals killing gays. Yes it’s horrible, no it doesn’t represent anything about Jesus and yes it has zero relevance to the topic at hand. That’s par for your course though, I understand.
What I took from IB22’s post was that Atheists frequently make claims to special knowledge that up until now billions of people around the world and since the beginning of time had never thought of and present it as somehow new and enlightening. I don’t see anything here to convince me that isn’t true.
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Inanity’s post was an appeal to popularity. Nothing more. Nothing less. To tell you the truth, I’m surprised she even went down such a pathetic path. It’s a tremendously weak argument. For most of human history people believed the earth was flat and the sun and the planets revolved around it, but this “popular position” didn’t make that particular claim true. The “popular position” in Jesus’ day was that epilepsy was demonic possession. This didn’t make that particular claim true.
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Just out of curiosity john, when you appeal to ‘popularity’ to support your loose claims that 90% of todays rabbis and ‘scholars’ believe there was no Exodus, or worse yet, that Moses never lived………..are you not then guilty of the very thing you are accusing someone else of?
Yet there is a huge difference. Your group of friends do not believe the scriptures, which makes your argument have no merit regarding they who do believe..Apples and oranges, false equivalence, and I must say, your basket has fruit that is not edible in this case.
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I’ve never said 90%. Ever. Why did you just make this up? What I have said, repeatedly, is the overwhelming majority. And no, Colourstorm, that is an appeal to “authority,” not popularity. You know, experts in the field. Professionals.
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Yeah, I may be wrong. Maybe you said 92%. Cough cough, ‘majority.’
Who cares about your majority? Your so called appeal to ‘authority’ is forfeited by men who reject the ultimate authority.
I’ll say it again, if 7,000 rabbis out of 7,001 say the scriptures are loopy regarding Moses for example, I’ll show you 7,000 unimformed, misinformed, unlearned, or just plain liars.
(and for the sake of the host, please do not drive this into a discussion about Moses. I could have said Joshua and the wall instead)
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Your meme amazes me John. Let’s do a quick blog geography check shall we?
This is a Christian blog. You are here. Did someone twist you arm and force you to come here? I think probably not.
This blog being in existence is not views being forced on anyone. You came here.
Um…um..well..darn, That doesn’t compute, because a reasonable person could conclude that you are actually telling others what to believe.
SMH for sure.
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Aren’t you aware, Wally, that’s is my meme (Christianity in ten Words) Inanity posted above. I think that’s an invitation to comment, don’t you?
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Comment away John. Just understand the irony of getting bent out of shape about people telling other people how they must feel about things, when your entire life is about telling other people…how they must feel about things. You are an evangelist, just like me. But, the truth is, you are far pushier than I will ever be, or most other Christian bloggers. You don’t want to read what I write? No prob, don’t come by. You, on the other hand, spend great amounts of time chasing believers down to insult, harass, and harangue them wherever they might be found. And often times it’s people who have done nothing, or directed nothing in your direction. As you just did with your meme.
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Who’s getting bent out of shape? I assure you, not me. You, however….
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LOL John, put a cork in it. Your so convinced of your bazingly superior intellect that, to you, disagreeing with you is a sign of mental insatiability. Nobody is bent out of shape here.
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Perhaps you should read your little misplaced tirade above, then reassess just how clearly put-out-of-shape you have shown yourself to be.
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What’s even more interesting is that the atheist,- such as the one above – expects his randomly evolved thought processes to be accepted as both rational and valid. Hmm.. what gives…
I suspect he sees himself as a different specie than the one he evolved from. A re-consultation with Darwin should set them straight but won’t, as it’s not coherent with the lifestyle the atheist actually lives.
From my brilliant friend Lyle Duell on: The cruel joke of atheism. http://lyleduell.me/2015/09/02/the-cruel-joke-of-atheism/
“In reality they want us just to accept their opinion because it is their opinion and their opinion is based on an assumed world view of naturalism,[4] which they assume is reality. In this assumed reality, their arguments win by default and become the absolute.[5] Yet, if they are consistent with their world view, their beliefs are nothing more than a chemical reaction in the brain and are not real, especially if one of those beliefs is faith in a God. Of course, faith in reason is not a belief according to them, but reality and this reality proves their position that all beliefs in a God are an illusion. Of course, reason is real even though you cannot see it, taste it, smell it, or feel it. It seems to me, reason is a concept or belief like the idea of God. However, for the atheist God is an illusion and reason is real. [6] What a joke.”
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LOL, I think I like your Lyle Duell. That’s a fabulous quote.
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Swish!
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Another great post. Keep them coming!
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Why is it so important for a group to disparage another’s beliefs? I can’t see where either benefits – other than arrogance. I choose to believe. And, to those who don’t, that’s fine. As for your rants and intimidation tactics for either side – to quote Rhett, “Frankly I don’t give a damn.”
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I’ll never tell how to you wear your shoes, or hold your mouth. Please be intelligent enough to reciprocate.
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Certainly, if what you say is true.
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You must at least give a little damn sandy……….else you would be mute on this one. 😉
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Only to the degree I believe all of us should be free to make up our minds as to what we believe. Either way.
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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Thank you for the reblog. 😉
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Bingo. I’ve always marveled at the ego who is quite willing to believe his intellect and clear vision rivals that of Isaac Newton, Pascal, Descartes, Augustine, Lewis, Faraday, ETC. That no one in human history has been smart enough to see what the newest in their club find so elementary.
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I prefer it when you call out red pillers and radical traditionalists!
Atheists aren’t a issue, red pillers and people who used God to abuse others are!
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Sometimes I need a break from the red pills. Too much time among them will rot your soul.
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It always amazes me how intellectually torpid the Atheists and Progressives are; though they all fancy themselves great geniuses and have the I’m-oh-so-much-smarter-than-you attitude towards everything. As atheists—they raise these questions as though nobody in 2 millennia ever bothered to think about them, or write about them. Did it ever occur to any of these people to look up what various Church authorities have said about these perplexing issues?
Of course not, because the Church was filled with dead white men and only what the modern Government-Media-Academia Complex says is true can actually be true.
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There aren’t only Christians who believe in God. There are various other religions which when included, most do believe in God. But the some atheists are the ones who believe God is in themselves, that we don’t have to go to a temple or shrine at a certain time and pray. God doesn’t have to have a shape. We are what we are. God is within us and not some seperate matter of energy.
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That’s a limiting idea of God. God’s not restricted to time or space—He is both within a being, place, or time and without it at the same moment. It’s only by consecration that God occupies a being or a sacred place.
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Which god are you talking about , Eric?
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Arkenaten:
What other One is there?
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Ark:
What other one is there?
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Well, here are a few
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Above in the comments Zande says:
“And BTW, I’m being very, very generous with those numbers. I don’t believe for one second that the Catholic figure (1.3 billion) is anywhere even close to being true. Remember, i’m still counted in that number… there is no dis-enrollment option.”
I am also counted in those numbers, but not being Catholic and having been born of militant atheists, I suspect I am not on the rolls anywhere. It is likely there are quite a few just like me in the world. We’ll call us, the “un-enrolled believers.”
But what I really wanted to do was to take note of your profound words, Zande, “there is no dis-enrollment option.” All in good humor here, but you have no idea how true those words are! We can run, hide, attempt to reason ourselves away, but nope, there is no dis-enrollment option when it comes to God. You can no more remove yourself from Him than you can unbirth yourself from your own parents.
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Dearest Insanity, what a charming post! Sorry I’m late, I’ve clicked to comment countless times, and got distracted before I could leave my thoughts. I’m just left wondering if 1.6 billion Muslims could be wrong either, or if its status as the fastest growing religion is an indication that when it overtakes Christianity you might think you’re wrong.
Did Jesus or the god God not say something about the path being narrow and few would find it? If that’s the case then maybe you should worry that you’ve taken up such a seemingly popular route. Maybe he was paving the way for Mormonism.
I’m not sure I understand John’s meme anyway. It’s absurd to suggest that a god would let itself be killed to satisfy itself that its sentient creation shouldn’t be tortured for eternity. There’s no way 3 billion humans would sign up to that!
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“I’m not sure I understand John’s meme anyway.”
There may be hope for you yet, Violet.
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Rather elaborate, but this is still an ad populem, nothing more.
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Ahhh, you struck a nerve there IB. Well said.
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I cannot presume to know the hearts of all atheists, even if for many years I was one. I would, however, hazard a guess that pride is not the primary reason most people lose their faith. Pride may provide a rationale for atheism — a fig leaf. And it makes for vigorous arguments.
But people lose their faith because of grief and pain. They lose their faith because of perceived injustice/rejection by what they thought was a loving God. Some endure abuse, rape, racism, or grinding poverty. Others lose a beloved child to drugs or senseless violence; a wife to a painful death from breast cancer.
Ultimately, the faith of many is strengthened by such trials. Others though are broken, and never the same again. That fact should bring Christians to tears, for it has consequences not only in this world, but the next.
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Well said, Anna. You make a good point.
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Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant and pure truth. I love the part: It is always possible that you are now much smarter than the nearly 3 billion believers currently on the planet…Or to separate yourself from those other 3 billion humans and from God Himself, because you as a little quirk of vastly superior evolution, have somehow managed to go where no man has gone before. 3 billion to one, however? Those are odds only a fool would bet on. Brilliant! I’m sharing this on FB if the blog allows. If not, I’ll post the link. God bless.
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Thanks! You can share it.;)
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