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atheism, blogging, culture, insanitybytes, life, love, opinion, relationship
Growing up, I spent many years trying to save my mother from the nature of herself, trying to rescue my father, trying to save my sister from the consequences of her own actions, so I am a bit of a rescuer. God has done beautiful work there however, and actually rescued me from the nature of my own self. I now know very well that I can’t save anyone, that only God can, that people are somewhat responsible for their own lives and what they make of them.
There is still sorrow there however, and grief. One of my least favorite things to do is to watch people make a mess of their lives. All our lives are messy, but I mean those who get all tangled up in addiction, depression, hoarding, violence, despair, homelessness, cults ….false teachings. That is just the reality of our earthly lives, I haven’t even got to the people who refuse to avail themselves of salvation and an intimate relationship with their Creator.
Can people in the midst of those tragedies have salvation? You betcha! There are also some who appear to be righteous Christians who do not. It’s not our own righteousness or our own circumstances or outward appearances that save us.
In the course of internet discussions with atheists, a common theme is, “how can you worship a God that would send people to hell?” Sadly, even within some believers there is this bit of false teaching that has just fixed all the uncomfortable feelings by suggesting that there are many paths to the Father and that everything will just come out in the wash, that none shall perish.
I empathize with the discomfort there, with the sense of unfairness, with the survivor’s guilt, with the desire to believe that we shall all hold hands, sing kumbaya, and ascend into the heavens together. Naturally there are no bad people in this utopian vision, only good people who may have done bad things but they are sorry now, so everything is happy again.
I like that vision very much, but is it truth? No. I’ve never seen any evidence of that playing out in the earthly world, so I don’ t see it playing out in the spiritual either. Like it or not, the world can be a harsh place, people suffer greatly for the consequences of their own actions, for the actions of others, and from the brokeness of the world. Than there are still others who have enjoyed every advantage, but given back nothing, and people who can never surrender their own pride and thirst for power.
My own desire is that none shall perish even in the earthly world. My own wish is well stated in 3 John 1:2, Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. It is only a wish however, it speaks to the nature of God’s love, to His intent and desire for us all…..but just the same, some probably shall perish.
That is a harsh truth, that is a tough bit of meat to swallow. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us, The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God’s love for us is so profound, so steadfast, we have such great worth and value to Him, that He gave His own life for us, so that none shall have to perish.
So, how can you worship a God that would send people to hell? I’ve been down that rabbit hole a few times myself, so I empathize with the reason behind such questions, and with the feelings, too. It is a paradox and sometimes a bitter pill to swallow. In a spiritual context, God never intended hell for us, or death or even suffering. We brought that upon ourselves, we continue to bring that upon ourselves. Hell was made for the angels, for those powerful beings that would rebel against God’s authority. However, we are also powerful beings that can rebel against God’s authority, that can choose to follow those dark angels.
It’s one thing to stumble down the wrong path, blind and confused, but there are also people who deliberately make the wrong choice at every opportunity. Sometimes I can actually see God in hot pursuit, knocking on that door, calling to them to wake up, handing them opportunity after opportunity. I cannot see into people’s hearts, I do not know how the story shall end, but sometimes I do see God calling out to them, and I see testing too. He is steadfast and persistent too, as in here are 70 tests….and here are 70 more. People are allowed to fail, a lot, and there is great mercy there.
In the modern Western world, we have pretty much rejected the notion of personal responsibility, of freewill. People are perceived as victims of their childhoods, victims of their addictions, victims of their neighborhoods, victims of mental illnesses, victims of circumstances. There is a powerful rallying cry today that suggests it is not our fault, we are not to blame for anything, that we just don’t know better, that all sin has a logical and reasonable explanation. We can just educate it away, or throw money at it, whitewash all those tombs that hide the dead men’s bones.
There are many reasons why it is important to confront our own feelings around the fact that some shall probably perish. For one, it helps us to discern how we invest our time and resources. It helps us learn how to protect ourselves spiritually and emotionally. Some people are just parasites, what I call emotional vampires. They will drain you and than go seeking sustenance elsewhere.
More importantly however, confronting this truth speaks to our own ability to practice reverence towards God, to surrender fully to the idea that He is worthy of our trust, that God knows the hearts of men better than we do. Trust is the ultimate form of worship, it is a vote of confidence, it is about respecting the fact that the error is never going to be on God’s end. When our personal feelings about things rear up, that can be an opportunity to go exploring, to examine what it is within us that has triggered our fear, our wavering, our lack of trust.
Do we pray for the tares, for the wolves in sheeps clothing, for the dark angels themselves? Well, you can never really go wrong with prayer, but a far more fascinating and worthwhile treasure hunt begins by asking God why one’s own soul cries out against such things. Why does it hurt so much, what is it within us that cannot swallow the truth?
I think the apostle Paul landed in this same place once when he said, “….that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren..”
These hunts, these rabbit holes of faith, can be painful journeys sometimes, but they deliver such valuable treasure. Lurking in my own heart were once feelings of unworthiness, an inability to embrace the fact that those who have been redeemed have been claimed because they have something within them worthy of redeeming. Jesus Christ saw something in each of His disciples that He valued, surrendered pride perhaps, humility, a fighting spirit, a willing heart, or perhaps in Paul’s case, eventually a contrite one.
Redemption is not always just about salvation, but sometimes about being granted the opportunity to right some of the wrongs we may have done. Peter, do you love me? Asked 3 times in perfect measure. Paul, will you now suffer for my sake? God is a God of reconciliation and healing, of redemption and salvation, a God who seals us unto Him, who does not revoke our salvation on a whim or based on our own failures, but rather a God who sees the diamonds in the rough, who hands us beauty for ashes, who molds us like the Great Potter.
Lurking too, within my own heart was pride, the soft and gentle kind, the kind rooted in compassion and love, but pride none the less, the kind that believed I should be able to will it into existence, that I should have power where even God Himself chooses not to. What a treasure it was, what a great blessing, to simply lay that bag of false pride down at the foot of the cross and trade it in for Trust.
Susan Irene Fox said:
“how can you worship a God that would send people to hell?” In my studies, my reading of God’s word and my conversations with Him, I have discovered something that has held me in good stead and has made this question entirely irrelevant.
In the book of Revelation, Chapter 21, heaven is described beautifully as the new Jerusalem coming down to earth. It says in verse 25, “and its gates will never be shut by day – and there will be no night there.” In other words, God doesn’t ever send anyone to hell. Heaven will always and ever be open to anyone who desires to enter. It is simply that in heaven there will be “no more mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore.”
Those who have no desire to live there will choose to live outside.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Yes, that is a good point. In some ways we do chose our own suffering, we actually bring it upon ourselves in the earthly world for sure. I can understand the idea that suggests we send our own selves to hell, by refusing to go near God, by desiring not to live there. I think that really is a part of it, but there is also great value in simply recognizing God’s authority, in perceiving Him as a judge, as a God worthy of determining what is just, what is fair.
I’ve wrestled with that one quite a bit, and while I think it’s partially true, we do chose where we are going to live, I had to ask myself, why am I more comfortable perceiving people as their own judges, why am I willing to hand them that authority, but not God Himself? Do I not trust Him to know what is within people’s hearts? Am I scared He might make the wrong decision? Do I still fear authority? There really aren’t any right or wrong answers there, just more treasure hunts to explore, more rabbit holes to plunge down. 😉
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Susan Irene Fox said:
I do believe when Jesus returns he will judge and separate, but I, too, had to ask myself if I truly believe if God is Love, as John tells us. If I truly believe in the imperative of Jesus’ commands to love each other. If they were not important, why would he tell us over and over again? And why does he supersede the law of an eye for an eye? If God is Love, then I don’t believe he would cast anyone into an eternity of hell. I must believe he leaves the door open for anyone to repent and come into his arms.
Restoration was never about punishment; it was always about bringing us back into God’s embrace.
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insanitybytes22 said:
I so agree, redemption is all about restoring us to God’s love. And God really is love that does indeed open the door to anyone who repents and comes into His arms.
The world we live in today also has huge issues with the very idea of authority, and with the concept of punishment. That is such a tangled and convoluted mess, that it can be hard to sort it all out. I say “authority” and I see protection provision, love, where others can see only tyranny and potential abuse of power. The idea that love and authority can go hand in hand with one another doesn’t sit so well with some people. Sadly though, the power of God is greatly diminished, at least in our own awareness, when we cannot find a way to reconcile love with authority, love with justice, love with potential fear of God, even. Fear in the best way, of course, fear that speaks of His ability to protect and defend us.
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Susan Irene Fox said:
Yes, I see where your thinking is with that, and I agree. His power is there, yet we don’t allow Him in. We want to take control, and don’t realize ultimately we have no control; He is in control of all things. And the fear for me is the healthy respect and awe given to the one who has the power and control.
Wow – great discussion, huh?
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insanitybytes22 said:
Yes, thank you, it really has been a great discussion! I love exploring these ideas with other believers. 😉
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David said:
Are you suggesting that we can go to Heaven after being sent to Hell? That is, can one change one’s residence after death?
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Susan Irene Fox said:
David, I don’t believe in the fundamentalist, evangelical, fire-and-brimstone concept of hell, so I don’t believe we are sent to the hell you refer to.
For me, I believe we create a hell of our own making, and for me, hell is the absence of God.
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David said:
Well, I think you’ve raised another problem, namely, no one can tell me what Hell actually is or what it’s like. So, I’m wondering if Hell actually exists.
But putting that aside, I’m not sure your reply answers my question. Let me put it another way. A millions years from now, if I wish to move from a non-Heaven situation or environment (call it what you wish) to a Heaven situation or environment, will I be able to do this?
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insanitybytes22 said:
I’m going with no, David, you cannot just move about, on account of the fact that God exists outside of our very limited and very linear perception of time. Eternity can be a challenging concept to try to wrap our brains around, but it does not involve change, progress, movement the same way we perceive it in the here and now, the physical world. Also, if you had spent a million years in hell, there would be nothing left of you fit for heaven.
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David said:
I’m going with no, David.”
Yes, this is the answer I would expect. However, Susan appeared to be suggesting otherwise, and that’s what I found interesting.
“Also, if you had spent a million years in hell, there would be nothing left of you fit for heaven.”
So, your concept of Hell is more of the fundamentalist, evangelical, fire-and-brimstone kind?
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you for the reblog, much appreciated 😉
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Vincent S Artale Jr said:
You’re very welcome!
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any1mark66 said:
I think we over complicate the whole life thing. There is far too much worrying about what we can’t control. And deflection about what we can control when we blame society for our own issues.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Ha! Of course we complicate the whole life thing, we’re people. 😉
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Heather Holbrook said:
Years ago I was mad at God, telling Him that I wouldn’t have disobeyed Him in the Garden of Eden, so why did I have to be a candidate for hell? Well, not too long after that I ended up being frustrated with him about something else so decided to go on my own. I turned back to him within 12 hours. But I then saw that He had been right all along – I would’ve done the same as Eve. I am candidate for hell – thank God for Jesus!
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you! That’s it precisely. I too once decided I shouldn’t be a candidate for hell, either. That’s a bit of a funny story, but God promptly pointed out that not only would I have done the same as Eve, I likely would have done much worse. Thank God for Jesus indeed, and for God’s steadfast patience with us in those times of doubt and questioning. 😉
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ColorStorm said:
Peter was asked three times in perfect measure…………..I can’t tell you how much I like this, I like to hear it, to say it, moreso because its not only true, but we also experience the same. Perfect measure.
Bag of false pride………….trade it in for trust………………….. yikes, what is in that water you drink?? 😉
That trust thing being your vote of confidence……….and that if there is a misunderstanding or any shortcoming, it is always, always on our end. (Don’t you feel like smackin someone when your own words are quoted………..you know what you said!!!
Ha, but its worth repeating and emphasizing, cause we may have missed it. Anyway, good stuff ms bytes. A nice handling of a sensitive truth.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you, perfect measure indeed. God really is just, fair, perfect, and although He is the redemption, I love how He also allows people to redeem their own wrong doings, to unwind them so to speak, to make amends. We see that in the bible so many times.
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Wally Fry said:
Hey IB. I’ve read this and reread it. And decided I don’t have anything relevant to say. So, just nicely done. This is a tough subject, and you talked about it nicely and yet didn’t sugarcoat.
Clap clap
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insanitybytes22 said:
Thank you Wally, for reading. You are always relevant, even when you have nothing to say. 😉
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Tricia said:
Yes, I agree with Wally, this is a wonderful post and very tactfully handled.
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Julie Sheppard aka Reiko Chinen said:
Excellent teaching. I too know too many who believe that loved ones who died without Christ will be waiting for them in Heaven. My best response to this is I hope that before they died they did receive Jesus as their Savior. Since I was not there when they passed away only God knows where their heart was and if they were right with Him.
I also know that without Christ you can have no part with the Father. It is not that He rejects anyone, it is each individuals choice to receive or reject Jesus. If a person rejects Him it is their decision not to live with the Father in His home. I watched a movie titled the Encounter, and in one scene the actor playing Jesus says, “How fair would it be to make you live in a place you have rejected all your life? Would that be giving you a choice?” I may have gotten a few of the words wrong but the message really spoke to me. He will never makes us do anything, it is our choices that decide where we will go. His Word states He is not slow as we count slowness, but patient that all will come to know and receive Him. He does not want anyone to go to hell. If He did then why send His Son to die for us? Jesus is the only way to enter into the Fathers home. Unfortunately too many want to do things their own way then want someone else to blame when they don’t get things their way. Many are called but few are chosen.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen! You have said it all so well. Thank you for those words.
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bluebird of bitterness said:
“A man can’t be taken to hell, or sent to hell: you can only get there on your own steam.” —C. S. Lewis
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