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'spherians, blogging, culture, faith, insanitybytes, marriage, opinion, submission
I wish to be as gentle as possible here, for what good it will do since I am already persona non grata in several circles, however I have encountered yet another post on wives and submission from a ‘spherian, a post called “how do wives petition or win their husbands,” which just begs for some clarification, perhaps some edification.
First off, what is at the heart of faith is submission, surrender to Jesus Christ. That’s it. Not submission to husbands, not proper gender roles, not giving up lying, not believing in the correct eschatological interpretation. The first step, the prime directive, is to surrender to Christ and allow grace to take you where you need to go. That simple. Faith is a progressive thing. Like the bible, faith also builds precept upon precept, a little here, a little there. Keep Jesus Christ at the top always, and you just can’t go wrong. Everything else will fall into place.
Second of all, the ‘spherians can be a bit like a broken record, wives submit, wives submit, wives submit. Sometimes when we are hearing the same message over and over again, that message is not really intended for others but rather for ourselves.
There can be a whole lot of hostility, pride, and outrage coming from that quarter. I’m sorry to say, but you could marry a sweet, gentle spirit, with no will of her own, who lays across the door step so you can wipe your feet on her, and she will still lack the power to heal what is broken within you. Far too many of us go looking for a perfect spouse, as if that is the solution to everything. We seldom embrace the idea that there is someone for everyone, and if we find ourselves married to this deeply flawed, defiant, and cantankerous soul, it is always possible that God chose that person because they reflect what is actually within our own souls. Oh, ouch, but there is some real truth there.
Third, there is another part to the equation. Wives submit does not just float out in the cosmos somewhere, unrelated to anything else. It is tightly entwined with, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.”
Context is everything. Without the other half of the equation, we have a two legged stool that just falls over. Long term marriage, deep into the profound wisdom to be found there, works out just as scripture says. Wives submit comes so naturally, so gently, because it lives in the face of a love that would lay its life down for you. Of course it can be a struggle, of course as human beings we try to foul everything up, but marriage reflects Christ’s relationship with the church. What did Christ do for us? He took all our blame, shame, sin, accusation, condemnation, upon Himself and sacrificed His life on our behalf. That is what genuine power and authority is all about.
What will you never see in the ‘sphere? And article that says, “Husbands, take all your wife’s sense of shame, blame, accusation, condemnation, sin, and lay down yourself on her behalf. Intercede for her, plea for her, accept responsibility for her errors.”
I know it sounds insane, but I really think marriage is like that. A man who can say, “forgive her Father, it is entirely my fault, I have overwhelmed and distressed her,” is a man under authority, who has authority. What heart does not melt in the face of such love? Mine certainly does. Are spouses still responsible for their own behavior? Of course, but recognizing the symbiosis at play and having a desire to lift someone up rather than to tear them down, is everything. It is not about them anymore, now it is about you and what you have the power to do.
When you realize the implications of what it means to have someone willing to lay down their life for you, these other little things like, what color should we paint the living room, become, “Whatever color delights the cockles of your heart, my love.”
Let me just state that any man who believes wives must simply submit in order to somehow magically draw the attention of a husband to your needs or desires is operating on this false assumption that men are amazingly intuitive, highly emotive, and have great psychic abilities. As much as I love men, I believe thickheaded would be a more accurate description. Husbands often require direct and clear information. Gentle I would hope, but sometimes persistent. Sure, prayer, fasting, and submission, are great tools at our disposal, but sheesh, if simply explaining how you feel to the poor man is not in the equation somewhere, something is all wrong with that relationship.
As to the infamous wife, (the Kellers) who had to smash her wedding china to get her husband’s attention, y’all should get over your great offense and forgive her. It may not have been a graceful act, but she is a full human being with the right to express herself. She did not bounce the china off his head, which is what some of us more passionate wives would have done. Is that wrong? Yes. Is that human? Yes.
It may not always work out exactly as you like, or it may not work out at all, but often the same amount of grace you are willing to extend and grant to your spouse is the same amount of grace they will reflect back to you.
Wally Fry said:
Yeah the other half of that equation is pretty darn important. The most important really . Good stuff IB
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen, Wally. I think there really is a huge burden on husbands, but on the other hand, recognizing the huge burden they bear, compels one to want to make it easier, lighter.
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Wally Fry said:
I almost don’t agree with you IB. About the burden part that is. Check this out. We get the opportunity and honor right here on this earth to behave just like Jesus. How cool is that?
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insanitybytes22 said:
That is simply awesome, Wally! Of course He did say, “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” When we have Him, it changes everything and even those burdens can become a great deal of fun. 😉
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silenceofmind said:
The opposite of “petition” is to “nag mercilessly.”
So for any of us who have experienced or performed merciless nagging we can use our vast human intellects to imagine the opposite, which is to petition.
It’s not mentioned in any of the Gospels but the Lord of the universe is also the Lord of common sense.
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insanitybytes22 said:
“It’s not mentioned in any of the Gospels but the Lord of the universe is also the Lord of common sense.”
Ha! Now that’s funny. I should post that on my fridge. We seem to forget that far too often.
Nagging can really do a lot of harm and it tends to just make people even more resistant, but I do believe there is something in that book about perseverance being a virtue.;)
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Wally Fry said:
Silence may I use that quote? That was awesome
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silenceofmind said:
Yes, Wally.
You can use the quote.
God tattooed it on my forehead to make sure I see it every day.
I’m not kidding.
I call it the “mark of the fool.”
It’s an actual, natural feature on my forehead.
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Elizabethan said:
Men do need direct guidance, and woman haters love to call it nagging, but hey, if they were more thoughtful and more efficient and more capable maybe the nagging wouldn’t happen? Right? Don;t want to be nagged, don’t be forgetful, don’t be thoughtless, don’t be self centered. Men can practice emotional labour and thinking about other people and doing what’s right for them. It’s not that hard to just think ahead, think of the other person, help out a little.
I find my life 100% better when I just do what i need to do and am not being “nagged”.
How badly do rad trads and MRA’s hate men and seem to think they can’t look after their business, and be thoughtful.
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Elizabethan said:
You have to be a real loser to suck to hard at thinking of people you care about and what they might need at any given moment, especially if you have known them and do know them, and see them every day. Just, not hard, at all, it’s a skill you can learn. Want your wife to love you, think about her once in a whjle.
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Dave said:
Typical of wife who needs to be divorced
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insanitybytes22 said:
Your unkindness is duly noted, David. It is also evidence of the precise problem I continue to address.
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Dave said:
Living with a nagging wife is more terrible than living in prison. Better kick your nagging wife out of your home or leave her
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insanitybytes22 said:
Well David, do explain how it works when men are never to listen to their wives and wives are never to communicate their needs? Do women really have so little value that we must seek to completely erase ourselves and become non existent to please you?
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Dave said:
Listenning to a nagging wife is different and I advice to leave a nagging wife as soon as possible
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Wally Fry said:
Hi Dave
Watching this exchange has aroused my interest in where you are coming from. IB asked you this, but you keep just tossing out the word “nagging.” Define that a little tighter if you don’t mind. What, exactly, constitutes nagging? Would that be any woman who simply opens her mouth? Or disagrees with you? Or has an opinion? Just idly curious, because frankly I find phrases like “kick her out of the house” to be quite lacking in anything resembling compassion. Actually trying to figure out where you got the authority to “kick” another adult out of home you appear to be sharing. Clear me up if you don’t mind.
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dawnlizjones said:
Also, so love the part about simple (gentle) communication.When I finally grew up enough to realize that it was OK that my husband couldn’t read my mind, that it was OK to tell him I liked getting flowers once in awhile, that a large part of our experience was up to MY communication–hey! Whadd’ya know! Plus, may I add that submission to benevolent authority, whatever the relationship, is meant also to be protective. Thanks for the post!
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insanitybytes22 said:
Amen! Communication makes all the difference. And submission to benevolent authority does indeed involve protection, provision, and love. 😉
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Elizabethan said:
Yeah, if you are with people who are worth it they will listen when you say things. As I said before, its not hard, and its a learnable skill, both to say what you need and to think for a little bit from the others perspective.
I go nuclear when people who say they love me won’t stop for five seconds to consider my perspective. Not hot, no comforting and no intimacy right there. You know what’s a turn on, someone helping me out!
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Anonymous said:
I find this to be interesting. I have a perspective on this, as I myself am in a bit of a difficult situation. (IB knows me, by the way, but I write anonymously when discussing this subject. It is not well received in manospherian or other such circles because everybody automatically assumes (a) I am making it up, or (b) any person in my position would divorce.
So here goes. Over fourteen years of marriage, I learned that conversations end when the husband decides they are over. We have a number of issues that have been swept under the rug until the metaphoric rug is a metaphoric mountain that we just don’t discuss. Whether they are issues as far as he’s concerned, I don’t know; I do know they are issues as far as I’m concerned. Following him out of a room to continue a discussion is most unwise, as is insisting on trying to finish the conversation when he turns on the TV, opens a book or other similar action. For some men, ANYTHING you say is considered nagging….that’s just the way it is. And this gets more and more difficult as you have children, and their needs change and grow over the years, what with school and other issues with raising them, but I won’t go into that. Suffice it to say that it can keep a Mom awake worrying nights. Oh, and toss homeschooling into the mix and the realization that you, the Mom, are the sole provider of the academics, the extras, you name it, and keeping up with that plus the meals, the housework and the fact that you make your daughters’ clothing because it is so difficult to find appropriate clothing….and a thrift store run is hit-or-miss……um…..you can go a little bit nuts. But you can’t go nuts in front of your husband or anybody you mutually know together….especially if his men friends are of the same mindset and their wives are just as burned out. Oh, and I forgot, run part-time business on the side, because you need it to make ends meet and pay the school fees for the accredited program you need to use for your high schooler because Hubby wants the kid to have an accredited diploma. Which is fine, and I am in total agreement with that, but it does cost.
Anyway…..I was about to go nuts. I had read all the suggested marriage books out there and took a couple of courses — one online course and one Love and Respect course at a nearby location. My husband did not do these with me or attend any counselors I went to (I went to two counselors due to some pretty bad depression). Finally a friend who attended Al-Anon convinced me to go with her, even though I didn’t have her problems. She kept telling me I would still glean something useful. Plus, it was free. Another good reason to go; the other stuff I’d done wasn’t free. I started going to Al-Anon with her and finally found a CoDA meeting, as that was more suited to my needs. My friend in Al-Anon became my sponsor and we were attending a meeting that was in accordance with our beliefs that marriage is permanent, no matter what. We found we could help each other and we started our own meeting, which now includes a number of women, mostly from our parish church. Our husbands are on all points of the spectrum of the traditional manosphere, so some have easier marriages than others. A few of us are related, so we have that extra bond to help us out.
We finally tossed every marriage book we had, beginning with Debi Pearl’s “Created to Be His Help Meet”, which is, as far as I can tell, the worst possible book for a codependent wife to read. It is probably a good read for someone who feels like the world owes her a living and is an entitled shrew, but for us it was disaster…..a codependent wife who keeps her mouth shut and silently does what she’s told can end up spiraling into depression, which happened to my cousin and she needed medication for a few months along with some intense therapy (neither of which was very affordable, but once we got our CoDA group started and met every week, she began to get better). We focus on raising our children, keeping workable schedules for ourselves, taking care of our health and fitness, and detaching. We focus on these four aspects every day and toss out the rest. We no longer ask our husbands for things, we simply assess what we can do for ourselves and what we need the help of others for. If we need the help of others, we ask one another or we hire it out after accumulating sufficient cash to pay for it. If our husbands start to lecture us, we simply listen politely but do not engage in the conversation. Afterward, we may think it through by ourselves, or call one of our members for a rational analysis of the conversation; we determine what we can reasonably do and what we need to ignore.
Life, while it is very different than what we imagined it would be, is far better than it was, and I trust we will all be able to say that it was good when we reach our golden years.
Like you, IB, I have also been banned from commenting on most blogs. It is what it is. Don’t worry about it.
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insanitybytes22 said:
Great comment, thank you! I too have wound up so overwhelmed, I’ve been in danger of falling completely apart. I think it’s rather common to many wives, we take on far too much and than there are all the unhealthy expectations others put on us.
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pamelaparizo said:
Whoa! Can I give you a medal for this paragraph?
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pamelaparizo said:
What will you never see in the ‘sphere? And article that says, “Husbands, take all your wife’s sense of shame, blame, accusation, condemnation, sin, and lay down yourself on her behalf. Intercede for her, plea for her, accept responsibility for her errors.” They have no clue what sacrificial love means. I can’t imagine what their image of Christ is except by their image of love they present.
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