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cultians, faith, gender roles, listening, love, marriage, men and women, relationships
What sparks this post is a handful of blogs advocating the precise opposite, never listen to your wife, mostly red pill churchian blogs trying to claim this is biblical or something.
This stuff makes me crazy because if it isn’t the outright path to divorce, it will lead to the utter destruction of a wife who tries to cope with such foolishness.
I really like men, how their brains work, how they perceive the world, but this one thing is a weakness that I think is innate to many. He doesn’t get it, he can’t hear me, he just doesn’t listen. I hear that from women all the time. I say it myself sometimes.
Nobody’s perfect, nobody’s going to get it right every time, but still, some effort must be made in the name of all reason and common sense.
To listen, to hear does not mean to necessarily agree, to approve, to completely change course, or to fix things. To not listen however, is a clear indication of disrespect and contempt. It could be unintentional, as in someone has really poor communication skills and doesn’t know how to listen, or it could be deliberate, as in I read on a red pill blog you should never listen to your wife because it’s unbiblical. Regardless, there’s not a woman in this world that won’t read not being heard, not being listened to, as disrespect and outright contempt.
It breaks my heart knowing there are people in the world promoting such tripe….. and people in the world dumb enough to believe it.
Contempt is the leading cause of divorce. Sometimes I read blogs from divorced men, some who are very wise and who now understand, and some who are completely baffled. Many of us on the outside can see the problem clearly, you poured endless contempt and disrespect over your wife, refused to listen to her when she kept telling you something was wrong, and now you blame all of woman kind. Yes, well those of us reading are not puzzled by why she left, we’re puzzled by why she stayed for so long trying to get you to listen to her.
It’s not always men who are to blame when relationships end, but the truth is women are far wiser about how to make relationships work than men are. And even when we aren’t, we are far wiser about what is going on within ourselves. Women can often see things that men can’t. Being a helpmate is not simply about cleaning the toilets. We are an extra pair of eyes with a unique perspective on the world.
The bible says men are to love their wives as Jesus Christ loves the church. Christ hears our prayers, He listens to us, He even takes our needs and desires into account and accommodates many of them. Sometimes He simply comforts us and provides something different, sometimes something better, but what He never does is refuse to hear our prayers and petitions.
Well actually, ironically there is a time He does say He will not listen, 1 Peter 3:7, Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Yes, give honour unto the wife…that your prayers be not hindered.
So Dalrock dismissively writes a post called, “she only acted crazy to get her own way” and Vox Day writes things like, “never be moved by her tears” and my heart just sinks wondering who taught these men these things, this blatant cruelty and disrespect, and who would be so foolish as to believe scripture actually backs this nonsense up?
If someone is crying, breaking wedding china, becoming depressed, those are signs of emotional distress. Your wife is obviously distressed! Not being heard, not being listened to. To imply she is just being crazy to manipulate you is the height of male solipsism and selfishness, it is evidence of a marriage of one. It is flat out emotional and psychological abuse that seeks to completely erase the personhood of another.
It is not giving honour to the wife, it is pure contempt and arrogance. Any woman still in a marriage like this is clinging to a thin thread of commitment and a desire to please Christ. She sure isn’t with you because of your own skills and charm. Perfect love casts out fear. To not be heard is to be rendered powerless, a state that creates fear.
For some reason that Frank Sinatra song comes to mind, I Did it My Way. Yep, you can do it your way, but if you do, you sure aren’t doing it God’s way and you sure aren’t following scripture.
There’s a bit of scripture that is eluding my memory at the moment, but it addresses knowing what the Holy Spirit is speaking, versus what is “you” speaking. In order to learn to discern the difference, you must be come aware of what is “you,” your will, your desire, versus His voice, His will. My sheep know my voice….
If you can learn to recognize this within your own self, you will learn to recognize it in others, in which case you will become like me, tearing my hair out and driven half mad by a world that insists on trying to bend scripture so it says what they want, rather than bending themselves so as to glean the wisdom of scripture……
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Ah ‘My way.’ Love that song. Hate that song. The swagger, the tune, the emotion, the appeal, the lasting memory of the voice. But as you say, apart from God, yikes. There is a way which seems right……….’my way………’ Nuff said.
Also, love that reminder of ‘prayers being not hindered.’ Spot on there. Great context.
And the idea of wives/husbands bringing different dynamics into a marriage is so true and necessary. It is so darn interesting to look at the same thing and see how the insights are so different, but part of the whole. Not male and female as the same, but different. Who could argue with a straight face?
You know this, yeah, where did I put my keys…………but there are many places where we read of our ways vs God’s ways, and the first that came to mind was this:
—For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.–
And another fav: ‘there is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.’
This is where we go sideways, well, folks who take a text and run to danger, as if God is to blamed for our laziness in really wanting to know something. Here a little, there a little, line upon line…………..oh how we can learn from the turtle!
Hey, here’s another toast to you and your readers for a great 16 😉
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Ah, thank you for those verses, Colorstorm! Along those same
lines, “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”
Men (and women) sometimes have eyes to see things in ways we cannot which can be very helpful, but ultimately discernment, discernment, discernment. Precept upon precept upon precept….like a turtle. 😉
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Perhaps there is a reason the little fella always appears to be smiling.
Under that hard shell is a ton of wisdom……………. 😉
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Yeah it blows my mind when some of these red pillers make a point to disrespect their wives and claim that’s the way God intended. I wasn’t raised in a very religious environment so I have a certain ignorance, but it’s that mentality that turns a lot of people off from faith and Christianity.
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Yep, you nailed it Ashley. This isn’t just about marriage and healthy relationships, but about so poorly reflecting what scripture says, so badly misinterpreting faith…that people are driven away in droves.
And who can blame them?
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I just read 1 Peter yesterday, and that same verse jumped out at me. Later in the evening, I had dinner with a godly friend whose marriage is on the rocks because her husband of 8 years will not listen. She’s on staff at the church and is seriously considering divorce. Great post, IB. These words need to be heard (ironically, by those who will not hear)!
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Sad, isn’t it? Some people are so misguided they think wives just need to basically suck it up and accept that everything is their fault. Heaven forbid anyone ever tell a man that he may also be imperfect and that perhaps he needs to listen more.
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Husbands need to learn how to manage their wives’ emotions because the emotionally-out-of-control entitled princesses haven’t been properly trained to manage their own emotions. They have daddy issues. This means that husbands need to be able to pick up when their wives are giving signals of emotional instability–this requires listening. Then, depending on the signal, the husband needs to behave a certain way.
Sometimes a husband needs to stop listening to his wife. Mrs. Gamer has a bad habit of telling me “You have to….” This language assumes that she’s the boss. When I brought it up, she tried linking it to something she didn’t like that I did. I tuned out. She picked up on that very quickly and dropped it. Mrs. Gamer doesn’t have daddy issues, but she has some deficiencies in her training.
I hear this same language a lot when a woman wants me to teach her how to dance. “You’ll have to teach me.” I’ve started correcting them. “A better way to ask is ‘Will you please teach me?'”
Dalrock isn’t wrong, but he could use more nuance.
“If someone is crying, breaking wedding china, becoming depressed, those are signs of emotional distress. Your wife is obviously distressed! Not being heard, not being listened to. To imply she is just being crazy to manipulate you is the height of male solipsism and selfishness, it is evidence of a marriage of one. It is flat out emotional and psychological abuse that seeks to completely erase the personhood of another.”
Women used to be trained how better to handle their own emotions. Men used to be trained how to handle their wives. If he isn’t handling her properly, she will hamsterize that she is being abused. Women manipulate men; it’s in their wiring. Men have to learn to manipulate women. The leader manipulates the follower. Parents manipulate kids. Generals manipulate the subordinates. Bosses manipulate employees. There’s nothing inherently wrong with manipulating followers. When followers try to manipulate leaders, then there’s a problem.
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This comment is so disrespectful. It’s hard to read it to the end. What if we changed the subject to how men “need to be handled” by their wives?
Women are people, not a commodity to be “handled.” Genuine, healthy relationships don’t arise from one spouse or the other correctly handling their husband or wife. Listening to each other isn’t about manipulation. And bullying is just as clearly a form of manipulation as the more subtle, less power-oriented ways of funneling others into a specific action or belief. Women aren’t hardwired to it any more than men are. It’s called the sin nature, and the fact that you think this is a women’s issue is sad, as is the idea that men have to learn how to do it.
It’s also sad that apparently you see no difference between leadership and manipulation. Where in Scripture do we learn that Jesus manipulated anyone? And yet He is to be our example (1 Peter 2).
I’m baffled that anyone reading the Bible would come up with these kinds of ideas. But perhaps I’m assuming to much. As I look over your comment, I don’t see anything that indicates these ideas are more than your own, built, apparently, upon your own experiences.
Becky
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Women have penises, so they need to be treated with respect. Silly girl.
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I hear you, Becky. Sometimes it just astounds me.
Gamer-guy at least makes a concession here, “Dalrock isn’t wrong, but he could use more nuance.” I guess that’s one way of putting it.
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What are you trying to say, Gamer? I’m being completely serious here. Are you trying to be funny? Or did you leave out a not?
You’re tying respect with male genitalia? How did you arrive at that?
Becky
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“In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.” I Peter 3:1-2
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Make a concession? Lol, in Revelation, just look at how Christ treats churches that misbehave. He’s very “abusive”. “I will vomit you out of my mouth!” Christ is a great example of how to treat misbehaving wives–thanks for bringing that up, Ms Miller. If anything, I am much too mild.
Feminist churchianity and the Bible are so very compatible, aren’t they? Lol
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Hey gamer-
The idea of Christ ‘vomiting you out of his mouth…………’ should be a cause for contrition, not to wear as a banner of pride.
I must say, as a male believer of many years, yes, many years, your slant of scripture is rather bizarre. Both of us can be wrong, but both of us cannot be right.
But is does appear, Listerine as mouthwash may not be strong enough for you. And for what it’s worth, the women who frequent the oasis on this blog, are some fine women of mettle and scriptural insight, and from what I can tell, are consistently bearing testimony to the Christ of scripture, laced with grace and truth. Key word there: consistently.
Tis a gift for you, open it up, and don’t spit it out. You are not perfect in judgment, neither am I. But at least I can tell the difference between night and day.
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***Gamer-guy, I’m editing this comment because this is not the ‘sphere. I need you to act like a gentleman, especially towards those I happen to have a lot of respect for.
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“…the wife must respect her husband.” Eph. 5:33 I have found nothing in scripture about husbands respecting their wives.
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Gamer, you have shown a great capacity to twist Scripture and ignore its clear meaning. You disparage your wife instead of obeying the clear admonition of Scripture to “show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of live,” then turn around and say Scripture doesn’t tell you anywhere to respect her. Never mind that Peter also said we are to honor all people, to love the brotherhood–which I’m sure you’ll misunderstand as only men who are Christians. I wish I had IB’s sense of humor to see something amusing here, but I just feel sad, so very sad for anyone in relationship to you, and those who think like you, must endure. I feel sad for you, too, because you’re in danger spiritually and you don’t know it.
Becky
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Hey gamer
Look…”handle” your wife? Um..your wife is not a pet. Now correct me if I am wrong. You are not Christian correct? So, other than your own selfish desires, upon what standard do you base the way you think men and women should interact? Most non believers think superior physical strength and a louder voice qualifies them to be in charge. That’s the mark of a bully and a coward to use one’s strength to control a person they should love. The only think you have right is the fact that you should be the leader in your home, beyond that your train and come completely off of the track.
On the other hand, If I have made a mistake and you are a Christan man, then you have so perverted God’s Word as to make it beyond recognition. In that case, you need to pray and study.
But, as with most of the boneheads from over in that alternate universe, I don’t expect to actually hear a response, because from what I have seen you all ignore most men and choose to direct your assaults against women. Not that these particular women need help, but it seems to indicate trend.
The behavior of you and your dog pack from over there frankly makes me want to puke, as the whole bunch cruising around over here hurling insults and hate me want to puke and are an embarrassment to men everywhere who love Jesus.
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Gamer
“…the wife must respect her husband.” Eph. 5:33 I have found nothing in scripture about husbands respecting their wives.”
Um…gee. Did you over look that little part about love her as Jesus loved the church….and sacrificed Himself for her? Are you having ice cream with the cherries you have picked?
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Craziness is bisexual…
…or is that transsexual?
Gosh, I think craziness may even be homosexual…
…oh well…
…I am obviously genderifically confused.
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I am generally just terrifically confused, Silence. I think anybody with an ounce of sanity has to be 🙂
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The more i hear my wife feeling, the more i always think that i’d rather divorce her
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That’s just sad. I’m sorry. Marriage is lovely for me, based on a bit of mutual respect and lots of love. I have a relationship with Christ, I blog, I have friends I talk with, so my husband isn’t the only outlet I have for my feelings, but he still manages to find the time to listen, to act as if I matter. I can’t imagine what it must be like to live with someone who feels noting but contempt for you.
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Hi Ms. insanitybytes, thanks for your reply
I’m a guy who doesn’t demand too much from anyone, including my wife. My wife, on the other hand is a woman who always makes me depressed in many times with many silly expectations and nagging all the time. I had told to people who I really know and most of them told me that probably she had too much work need to be handled at home (she is a SAHM). I didn’t disagree with them, then I tried to reduce her burden at home by doing some chores. I even washed my own clothes and made it separated from hers and my kids’. But it doesn’t even make her satisfied and still nag all the time and even she told me ‘how I did not always listen to her’ and makes me even more depressed. Because of her manner, I don’t want to come home earlier from my work. I have a stressful job and if I returned home just to hear her complains, it makes me even more stressful. There were few times when she usually went out with her friends and left me with my kids, and those days during her absence were the most peaceful days in my life, I didn’t even miss her when she left for long time. I always think that by leaving her, then I will find joy and peace but I choose to stay because I love my kids. But I don’t know until when because I’m also not typical patient guy.
Anyway, just FYI, divorced men I know are depressed not because of their wives leaving him, but mostly because their wives always involve everything when the relationship don’t work, including the kids, such as the kids will be poisonned by their crazy wives to turn against them. Just because a man doesn’t love his wife, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t love his kids. Men don’t fear losing their own wives, but they fear the other things, such as kids and their own properties during divorce. Those were the ones which make men suffered.
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I am sorry Michael, that you are so unhappy. Connecting with your wife is important however, as well as taking time to be together away from the kids.
It sounds like you both need to forgive one another and start talking to each other. It would be wonderful if she knew how much you need to feel admired, appreciated, respected, but she probably doesn’t. And you probably have no idea how much she needs to be heard, to be listened to, to feel as if she matters to you.
What you have just described is outright contempt, the result of frustration, but that is actually what destroys marriages.
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Well, usually I always listen everything she said, however there was a difference between listenning a feeling and listen to someone who nag and tear you down. Like I said, I’m not a demanding person and I’m fine if she can’t admire me for what I do either by words or actions. I even don’t demand her to do anything for me if she doesn’t want because usually I can do many things on my own. However, I really can’t tolerate when someone tear me down. If she can’t say a good way, then it’s better not to say at all. I have already told her about this multiple times but she keeps doing the same thing.
Until now, I don’t care whatever she does. She is a grown woman and she can do everything she wants. I even don’t care if she wants a divorce. There are more important things need to be done than waste too much time which frustrate me all the time.
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“I don’t care whatever she does. She is a grown woman and she can do everything she wants. I even don’t care if she wants a divorce.”
It sounds as if you are at the end of the road. The thing is, if you want your marriage to work, you have to start caring.
“I even don’t demand her to do anything for me if she doesn’t want because usually I can do many things on my own”
You married her. I suspect she gave you children. She stays at home and mothers them. Those are all things she has done for you, to try to build a family with you. Does she clean the house? For you! You say she tears you down, but you sure don’t seem to lift her up either.
You can go right on not caring or you can try to set your pride aside and view her with some forgiveness and understanding, and a desire to make it work. It’s better for the kids if their parents can work it out. Sometimes you have to be the one to take the first step. Something must have brought you two together, at some point you must have cared.
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“You married her. I suspect she gave you children. She stays at home and mothers them. Those are all things she has done for you, to try to build a family with you. Does she clean the house? For you! You say she tears you down, but you sure don’t seem to lift her up either.”
Well, but I provided her, I paid all the bills, and worked. We have a small house and usually I clean our house after I wake up in the morning because those what I had always done since I still lived with my parents. I think I said in my previous comment that I tried to reduce her burden at home by doing some chores. I even washed the dishes in order to make her more relax. Yes, she mothers my kids and that’s the reason why I choose to stay, because I love my kids. She usually compared me with another man, how other wife’s husband does this thing to his wife. I mean if your husband compare you with another man’s wife, will you be happy? instead being grateful for what you had already got.
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It sounds like your pride has been wounded, Michael. I’m sorry she’s hurt you.
It’s not about who is right and who is wrong, it’s about who is going to take the first step to try to change your marriage for the better.
If you just go on not caring and putting all the blame on her, you’re basically just handing all your own power away. It could be entirely her fault, but you are really the only one who can change things.
The best thing you can do for your kids, is to figure out how to love their mother in spite of her flaws and to bring some joy and peace into your home. You deserve that and so do your kids.
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yes, you are probably right, but I don’t think I will love her as my wife. I just love her because she is the mother of my children. If only no kids involved, maybe I will leave long time ago. Right now, I’d rather do another important thing instead always stuck in which makes me so depressed.
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Michael is a man trying to act like a woman and treat his wife like another man. He doesn’t want his wife to make demands on him, so he doesn’t make demands on her. She doesn’t like this. He isn’t leading. A leader makes demands of his followers. A leader pays attention to his followers. A leader learns how to calibrate his followers and determine what they need. A leader of women must understand their nonverbal communication, body language, facial expressions, vocal tone, etc. What women don’t say but imply needs to be understood.
Michael should read all the Red Pill stuff to understand what women need, how women communicate, etc. He probably won’t.
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Can you afford a maid? I call it “outsourcing your arguments.” I’m not joking when I say many a marriage could be saved by having someone else do the cleaning.
I imagine your wife is not feeling enough quality time/appreciation from you. Nagging and complaining at you is wrong, but it is rooted in feeling disconnected from you. She’s trying to give you a message, but she’s not going about it in the right way.
I urge you to look at the underlying message from her. I also urge you to nip these complaining sessions in the bud. Do not allow her to continue to show you this disrespect. That is why she still does it. What she needs most from you is strength and leadership. So, the next time it happens, you will have to say “Stop talking to me like that. If you have a problem you want me to address, explain it to me. But you will NOT continue to talk to me like this.”
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Kate, you aren’t communicating in a way that Michael will understand. Michael fundamentally doesn’t understand women,, so when you say, “I urge you to look at the underlying message from her,” you might as well be speaking Etruscan. He needs a whole lot of background about how women communicate, shit test, etc. Michael needs a whole lot of background which can be found at PUA locations and not at any Christian locations…well some at mine.
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Well, I had a feeling suggesting he tell her to shut up and have sex with her would be misunderstood here. But, an out of control nagging wife, is probably sexually deprived and is provoking him on purpose in the hopes he’d accidentally figure out she wants him to have sex with her.
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You’re a dear, Kate, but Michael still has so much to learn. Where is he gonna learn it? By continuing to do the same old things that have failed so often in the past?
Michael has to pass shit tests in order for sex to be on the table even when the wife wants sex. The shit test is an indication that a wife wants sex. Most men fundamentally don’t get this because they wouldn’t shit test their wives if they wanted sex. Men assume that women think like men. It just ain’t so.
So men need to understand how women think and PUA blogs are the place to go.
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I get your point. I learned a lot from pick up myself. I’ve actually changed the whole focus of my blog for a while to be a boy’s guide to a lot of these issues. I do have a middle of the road approach though. I think it’s important to balance relationship skills with Christian values.
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There’s lots of that background about relationships in scripture, but you have to read between the lines to get it. (Funny that I am autistic, but get it, and non-autistic men don’t get it.)
Take, for example, the submission/love coupling. Men are to love their wives and women are to submit to/obey their husbands, per Paul’s admonition. There’s a whole lot of relationship background behind this that gets teased out on PUA blogs and even over at Dalrock’s site, usually in the comments.
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Kate, when I read that a woman washed Jesus’ feet with her hair, I surmise that there must have been flirting going on in these dinner parties that Jesus frequented with his disciples. Have you checked out my post about Jesus flirting with the Samaritan woman in order to reveal Himself to the Samaritans? (“Jesus flirted”) And when Paul says to abhor “coarse jesting”, he is merely setting a bound that allows lots of sexualization via double-entendres that are anathema to most churchians. I used to think like this, too, once upon a time.
Middle-of-the-road isn’t what men need to hear. More like, “stay on the road” (sexualize appropriately) but don’t stray off the road into bawdiness and adultery.
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Hi Kate, I had done that before, but it was like I was talking to a wall. I don’t care about her anymore, it’s enough. I tell her today to do everything you want for your happiness and I will deal with mine. If she wants to get out of marriage, then that’s fine.
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Best marriage advice I’ve ever recieved is “listen more and talk less.”
As the Bible says, “…everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry.”
This is no more important in anywhere than it is in a marriage.
Happy New Year IB. May God richly bless you and yours in 2016.
James
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Amen! There’s that bible again, teaching us how to be married 😉
I was actually the one that had to learn to listen more and to be slow to speak, slow to anger. Hubby is still working on that, but he’s always been miles ahead of me there. For such an inpatient man, he’s still always managed to be patient with me.
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As you say listening is totally different than agreeing or blinding going with whatever the wife says. A strong man indeed listens, but isn’t easily swayed or manipulated. If a marriage improves after listening, as in the case of Pastor Wilson, who are Christians to jump on that. Do Christians want couples to stay together or like you said do it their way (“my way”). Do it the red pill biblical way or it doesn’t count. Its almost like they would have rather the Wilsons divorce than have him listen to her. If they were saying “you should never be manipulated by your wife” I would agree with that, but to say “not to listen” is the wrong choice of words.
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He doesn’t get it, he can’t hear me, he just doesn’t listen.
This is not said about me by Mrs. Gamer. I listen to her, I get it, I hear what she is saying. I understand what she is saying and what she is not saying.
How did I get to this point? By reading some blogs by pickup artists about how women communicate. How many “Christian” Blue Pill men are going to go learn from PUA blogs? Not very many. They will assume that if the source is PUA, it must all be evil instead of taking the “keep the baby and throw out the bathwater” approach. Wisdom may be found in some unexpected locations.
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“Wisdom may be found in some unexpected locations.”
You don’t say, gamer-guy? Like, perhaps in your wife? 😉
Do you know why I put up with you, why I read you sometimes? Because I am trying to hear you, to listen, because I am not judging you on surface value, because I can see some wisdom lurking beneath your facade.
That same kind of respect must be granted to wives in a marriage or else the relationships will not work. The bible does not speak of respecting wives, but it does speak of giving honour unto her. You honour your wife by listening to her and learning how to hear.
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Mrs. Gamer is a very smart woman, but she is unaware of her own sexuality. She is not the place to go for sexual stuff or relationship wisdom.
When you say “respect a woman”, most men will read this as “respect a woman like you men would respect another man.” Total fail.
Honor wives when they behave honorably. Always be listening and understanding. Gamer maxim: “Flirt early and often.”
The crap that you hear from Ms. Miller and ColorStorm will mislead men. You know that this is true.
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When you say stuff like this, you are telling other women to pay attention to what I say and read it carefully. You can’t say this openly, of course, but women will get your message. Churchian men won’t get the message unless you explicitly tell them.
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Insanity, I have pointed out a major flaw in PUA understanding of mating–that they see mating as primarily seduction, instead of a back and forth where both man and woman take turns chasing the other. Man chases less because he’s faster, more intelligent, stronger, bigger, and the woman chases more because she’s weaker, slower, less intelligent, etc.
Gamer Maxim: “Chasing wife, happy life.” If the wife is spending lots of time chasing the husband, the marriage will be happy. She makes sammiches for him, keeps herself looking good for him, flirts with him a lot, etc. Which leads to Dread as the way to keep a wife chasing…which leads to the Song of Solomon where the woman chases the man, asking him where he pastures his goats, her chasing him in her dreams, etc.
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There is a definite push pull going on in romance, gamer guy, that is the whole “game.” Power shifts and ebbs and flows and it is exchanged back and forth. The problem comes when men are so dog gone fearful and arrogant that they cannot even perceive women as fully human. Dominion as destruction, masculinity as perpetual domination.
You should go teach those guys that there is a huge difference and that many of the attitudes they hold are harmful to them as men.
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“It’s not always men who are to blame when relationships end, but the truth is women are far wiser about how to make relationships work than men are. And even when we aren’t, we are far wiser about what is going on within ourselves. Women can often see things that men can’t.”
This is where we differ.
I agree that both partners should attempt to empathize and empathy is generally lacking in marriages. The wife should take a moment and reflect on the fact that her husband has had a long long day at work and all he wants right now is some sanctuary and respite, not to listen to a stream of complaints/tasks and so forth. The husband, in turn, should pause and reflect on what the wife is experiencing that really listen. This is true of all human communication, not just marriage. People tend to have a personal agenda when they communicate and it’s difficult to push their own agenda to the side and consider what the other person is going through and actually trying to say.
However, in my personal experience men do this far far better than woman. And in my personal experience the more therapy and “talking about feelings” couples do, the more one-sided things became (not in the man’s favor).
Men generally want to solve problems, women generally want to talk about them.
So, at the end of the day, I must admit I know of marriages that are toxic because the husband treats the wife with contempt. But (and we’ve been here before) I know of MORE marriages that are toxic and/or have ended because the wife is obsessed with the negative and the husband could never listen enough or do enough, and the bottom line is she simply doesn’t respect him. So I do not believe that women are “wiser” in this way. Not at all.
For rough example, in this particular case the woman smashing dishes who wanted to “be heard” was not very concerned with her husband’s feelings. It sounds far more like he was concerned with hers.
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Here’s one problem with that case you mention, Liz. The man is working himself to death, the woman is having an emotional breakdown, and they are both in Christ, so what does love demand they do? Continue working himself to death and she continue her emotional collapse, in order to glorify the husband’s dominance? Or are we to glorify our heavenly Father who wants us to be in good health and prosper?
That woman, like many women, had no way to get her husband’s attention because he wasn’t listening to her. Would she truly be loving him properly if she remained silent, letting him work himself to an early heart attack and herself into a nervous breakdown?
Love is a complicated thing and it is far more involved than simply people’s feelings. Listening to your wife, hearing your wife, is far more complex than simply accommodating her feelings. Her “feelings” are far more than just randomly firing hormones, they are the canary in the coal mine, the mechanism that has alerted her to the fact that something is wrong here. This is cause and effect going on, she is responding to circumstances. Men do not always understand that, they do not always understand women’s feelings, but that doesn’t mean that men should just dismiss everything women say and do as if it doesn’t matter. That is the height of blindness and arrogance.
So Dalrock saying she’s crazy and never listen to your wife is being short sighted at best and instructing men to do something that is unwise. Like it or not, men are imperfect and if the goal is to perpetually glorify men rather than to glorify Jesus Christ, you’re going to run into problems.
“Lord, I did what you said, unconditional submission to my husband who had a heart attack at age forty while I myself wound up in the hospital,” does nothing to honor Jesus Christ, nor does it reflect using the brain He gave us.
Also, this couple is happily married, as am I. You might want to ask why Dalrock and the others seem so hellbent on mocking and ridiculing those of us who are actually walking the walk, living the dream.
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Her “feelings” are far more than just randomly firing hormones, they are the canary in the coal mine, the mechanism that has alerted her to the fact that something is wrong here.
More often, like the boy who cried, “Wolf.” Always to be listened to and often to not be acted upon. Just because a woman has bad feelings does not necessarily mean that a man is responsible or can do anything about them. Lots of false positives from women. Men have to do a lot of filtering to find anything actionable.
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“Men have to do a lot of filtering to find anything actionable.”
Ha! Actionable? Men are such verbs, all of the time! The thing is, “listening and filtering” is an action all by itself, gamer-guy. Often hearing and listening are enough all by themselves. There’s no need to “fix everything” or even anything at all.
Dalrock was all ruffled because he believes this wife was smashing plates to try and manipulate her husband into “doing something.” She was! She wanted him to hear her, to listen to what she was saying. He wasn’t listening because he probably feared if he listened he’d have to try and fix the whole situation.
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Yeah, women mostly just want to know that a man is listening. Attention-seeking behavior. Women want to be liked and admired by everybody (hence the attention-whoring behavior of so many women), the attention of men (including both beta orbiters and alphas), and to be desired by alphas.
Women still need to train themselves to manage their own emotions. Sometimes things just aren’t fixable. Like when a tradesman has a crippling injury and can’t work anymore at his trade. So household income suffers and the wife is unhappy and goes hunting for a new beta provider when she ought to have managed her emotions better.
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Ai yi yi. Now that is pure red pill nonsense speaking, gamer-guy.
Women are not seeking attention, our lives are actually impacted by the behavior of men. We have to be heard, because we have to be able to communicate with you.
Male solipsism, it’s a real thing in the world.
Do you know how many wives care for disabled husbands, nurse them through cancer? It’s a lot.
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Women are not seeking attention…
Yeah, it’s always the men posting selfies on facebook. Women don’t spend hours getting ready to go to a club so that they can be seen as attractive. Or making themselves “presentable”.
Female solipsism.
Sometimes direct communication by women occurs, but only INTJ women prefer it. Even INTJ women will use nonverbal communication almost exclusively for sexual and relationship topics.
Nurse through cancer? Maybe some of the older generation does this. If a man quits working because of injury or disease and can no longer provide health care coverage, mama is gonna vamoose.
Even if mama stays with the diseased/disabled weak man, she is gonna withhold sex at the least.
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“Female solipsism”
What some of you call female solipsism is actually a desire to look good FOR men. It is not necessarily a self absorbed thing, attention seeking, it is a desire to be pleasant and pleasing.
While there are some women with assorted emotional issues that drop men at the first sign of weakness, there are far more who stay with the men who really bring nothing good to the relationship. That is often love that drives us, not hypergamy. It is not just older women either, I know many women still with men through addiction,alcoholism, disability, poverty, and outright abuse.
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It is not necessarily a self absorbed thing, attention seeking, it is a desire to be pleasant and pleasing
Attention-whoring on facebook is totally about narcissism. These same whitewashed dregs of humanity are just sooo pleasing with their snark towards betas. I don’t see much of that directed towards me–sometimes I see other men getting abused by their women verbally and otherwise.
I see older wives who have “blossomed” into whales. The majority of those I see in church are like that. Being forced to sex them up is sexual abuse.
I note that you don’t contest my point that women married to weak men generally withhold sex. Surely, the statistics are clear that the longer men are married, the less often they have sex and the more frustrated they become. Maybe this explain the tendency of initiators of divorce to be men for couples over 50?
“To have and to hold” — I guess if women lack agency, then they can’t be held accountable for breaking their vows.
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True story: On the night we got married, Jon and I got together with some friends and relatives, most of which were men (apparently ladies don’t like pub crawls, so I must not be a lady), just for a few drinks to congratulate us. One of the things that was brought up was how, over the years, the older men had basically trained themselves to zone out when women speak “too much”. Some of the younger men agreed this was wise. Jon was the only one who didn’t agree, and he later commented that it’s worth listening even if you’re not that interested, just to be sure, or at least explaining you aren’t interested. Guess who’s the only one in a close-contact, zero-drama marriage?
Some lessons can be learned, but not taught, I suppose. :p
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Words of wisdom there 😉
My husband always hears me and responds, but he is also aware of how women’s words can pour over you, buckets and buckets of endless words. Once while we were driving and I was chatting away to keep him awake, he said, “stop talking, your words always make me so sleepy…”
Ha! So today I try not to overwhelm him with too many words or he really will zone out.
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It’s definitely a two-way effort. I wonder how much it is men who stubbornly zone out, and how much it is women who can’t tell when to be quiet?
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Probably a little of both. There is often this communication gap between men and women, we don’t always speak the same language or perceive the world in quite the same way.
That’s why I often try to speak of symbiosis, of the complimentary nature of our relationships. Swinging from one extreme to the other just isn’t helpful.
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Indeed. We’re designed to meet each other half way, not stubbornly sit in our corner and demand that the other sex makes a full trip to talk to us.
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Thanks, IB. I love the heart you have written this post in. Too bad that so many men don’t learn to listen to the heart of the person speaking. I grew up in a male dominated, left brained house (it was not a home) and for years my father was my role model. But my parents finally divorced and my own marriage went through lots of frustrations and shakings until a pastor who was good at counseling marriages pointed out to me that my wife actually had some of the strengths for our marriage that I did not have as the “all complete male” and I would do well to listen to her an yield to those areas in her that were strong to cover those same areas in me that were weak or nonexistent.
Finally, after many years of chauvinistic thinking and wanting to see our marriage succeed, I was reading about God creating man in His image, “male and female made He them.” Duh (forehead slap)! Women are as much created in the image of God as men are and I was missing out on half of the revelation of who God is by not being open to who and what they are! Do women sin and miss the mark of walking in that image? Of coarse, just a men do, but with much prayer and a deep longing to see our marriage work, I started laying down my life (soul controlled life) for my wife as Christ has done for the church physically, like Paul said. It is like Jesus said, “He who finds his life (soul life) will loose it, but he who looses his life for my sake will find it.” Men, for Christ’s sake! Learn to lay down your lives and love our wives more than you love yourselves. Those of you who do not have Christ, for get it, you will remain clueless as to what real love is anyway until you do surrender you lives over to the One who is Love. God put in the heart of every woman a longing to be loved as only Jesus loves and because of the fall of Adam, there has been a total inability to provide them that kind of love. It is a divine set-up! We either come to Christ for the sake of our marriages to get His love for our wives that they need or our marriages will continue to end in failure and we go on down the road alone singing with old Frank, “I Did it MY WAY!”
Michael (married to Dorothy for 50 years this year)
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Thanks for reading Michael, and for your kind words. Congratulations on your marriage and happy anniversary to come!
It’s no accident that scripture speaks so much of marriage and likens it to Christ’s relationship with the church. The spiritual challenges and growth to be found in a good marriage are just incredible. It can be very healing and frustrating and exciting, not unlike our relationships with Jesus Christ Himself. It’s sad that we’ve made it so hard for both men and women, with so many false ideas and teachings.
One of my elderly friends gave me a bit of wisdom when she said, “marriage isn’t hard, you just receive it.” She was quite right, it really is that simple and yet a bit like all the things that get in the way of simply receiving the love Christ has for us, obviously not so simple.
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**Edited. Gamer-guy, I have a lot of respect for Michael, so be a gentleman.
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I’d like Christ to formally introduce us when He take us home. P.S. Yes listen to your wife; odds are she’ll survive you. ( Re Alan King chuckle)
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Amen! No amount of Scripture-bending changes a lie into truth or truth into a lie.
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Amen, always listen to your wife, but always make the best decision for the family whether your wife agrees with it or not as the leader of the family, because God holds the man responsible for the family and not the wife. God made the man the head of the family, and gave him a wife to help her husband not dictate his leadership decisions.
“And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul; And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand. But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.” (Numbers 30:6-8)
On the other hand, a man should never listen to his wife when her communication is disrespectful or contrary to his leadership, unless God confirms her word. Adam should have never had listened to his wife Eve when she doubted God’s Word, but he did and everybody is still paying for it. Abraham should have never listened to his wife Sarah when she doubted God’s Word of promise, but he did and the Middle East is still paying for it. However, when God confirmed Sarah’s counsel then he should have and he did.
“And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in your sight because of the lad, and because of your bondwoman; in all that Sarah has said unto you, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall your seed be called.” (Genesis 21:9-12)
God set up the roles and responsibilities in the marriage institution the way they are for a reason, regardless of our western cultural attitudes and interpretations. Our perverted attitude towards roles and communication in marriage does not change what is right and acceptable in God’s mind. Jesus would never disrespect the Father in his attitude or even in His requests no matter how much suffering He was going through, let alone in His actions, and He is our model of honor towards Authority.
Yet as a Spiritual Husband He ignored His disciple’s fears, worries, statements, demands not to go back to Jerusalem or to the cross. He never answered their questions in the way they wanted Him to. When they didn’t understand His statements, He grilled them with questions to the point of interrogation, so that they would search their own hearts, and never explained the answer to them. When they were panicking because of their fears during trying circumstances He rebuked them, and demanded them to trust in God. When they didn’t believe His words He upbraided them and rebuked them for their unbelief. Very few modern women would stay married to a man like that and put up with that kind of “abuse,” and He is our model of “honoring the weaker vessel.”
However, when their hearts were respectful and sincere, He taught them and shared incomparable wisdom with them. He was not a westernized modern man, and He was not easy to follow, most of the 10,000s that followed Him turned away from Him, because His attitudes, expectations, and words were absolute and uncompromising. He was the most confrontational, direct, and straight forward Man that ever lived, and He crucified on a cross for it, yet He loved His Spiritual Wife, provided for her, protected her, comforted, encouraged, challenged, taught, corrected, empowered, and led her as the ultimate example of a masculine leader in authority and under Authority.
God is more patriarchal and authoritative in His attitudes, decisions, and precepts than most westerners are accustomed to and willing to agree to. God’s view of marital rights and responsibilities are not congruent with our modern belief system of equal rights in the 21st Century. The man is the authority in his family, and responsible to teach, set in order, provide, protect, and lead his household. The wife does not have the right, nor the responsibility to teach her husband and correct him like Hollywood’s perverted emasculated men and manipulating, controlling, and demanding women, any more than a man has the right and responsibility to teach The Lord Jesus, or God the Son has the right and responsibility to teach The Father or correct Him.
This is where the husband’s love for his wife motivates him to consider her needs, understand her heart, and makes the best decision for the family, and this is where the wife respects her husband, trusts in his leadership, whether they are contrary to her understanding and preferences or not, submits, and follows his decisions. Neither one of them has the right to abandon their marital duty to the other because their “needs” are not being met. If they deal treacherously and don’t keep their vows before God, the Owner of His creation can, does, and will bring correction to that individual in due time, regardless of whether man’s law says their marriage was dissolved or not.
“And I will judge you, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give you blood in fury and jealousy.” (Ezekiel 16:38)
“Yet you say, Why? Because the LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously: yet is she your companion, and the wife of your covenant. And did not He make one? Yet had He the residue of the spirit. And why one? That He might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the LORD, the God of Israel, says that He hates putting away: for one covers violence with his garment, says the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that you deal not treacherously.” (Malachi 2:16)
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Sounds good to me. 🙂
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