For those who don’t know, John Zande of superstitious naked ape fame is a militant atheist I sometimes chat with. He’s written a book and his latest theory is that God is malevolent, evil, based mostly on teleology. Teleology is “a reason or explanation for something in function of its end, purpose, or goal.” In short Zande theorizes that based on the condition of the world around us, we have a malevolent creator, one unworthy of our belief.
Over at Silence’s place he left me a comment that I simply must elaborate on because it so perfectly encapsulates the kind of psychological abuse and brainwashing that I experienced as a child, at the hands of…. you guessed it, militant atheists.
I don’t want to lament this fact, I simply want to acknowledge that there is a heavy cultural meme going on right now that tries to claim Christian parents brainwash their children and that the very nature of faith is psychological child abuse. Along with this meme comes a few studies trying to suggest that children raised by non believers have higher morals.
I can tell you right now that’s a bunch of bunk. Non belief can become an ideology that often takes on a mind of it’s own and can also do a whole lot of harm to children.
Cultural memes, also known as social engineering, fascinate me, partially because I have a keen eye for deception. Due to my childhood, I don’t like mind games and brainwashing, so those little antenna always pop up when I spot a social engineering trend. Or someone trying to game me.
So first off, the purpose of this post is just to make people aware of a meme that is currently being bantered about, that faith is now being alleged to be psychological child abuse. Second of all, I wish to make it known that atheists and non believing parents sometimes engage in some pretty horrendous psychological abuse themselves. My story is proof of that.
But most importantly I want to celebrate Christ’s victory in my life, His steadfast patience and unwillingness to leave me behind, His amazing healing. I want to remember where I came from, only for the purpose of noting how far He’s now taken me, how whole and complete He’s made me. These things do not trigger me anymore, there are no open wounds, and I am full of forgiveness and reconciliation. Christ doesn’t just hand us beauty for ashes, He can replace what was stolen, ten fold over.
The jist of Zande’s comment is something I heard nearly everyday as child, a rather persistent and insidious attempt to try to convince me that God was evil. The idea being that if someone can just grasp that God is evil they will naturally reject Him as being non existent.
It’s an ugly thing to do to adults, but it’s far worse to do to children who have no defenses. It is also a form of psychological abuse. One’s own needs to destroy God take precedence over the well being of the one you are targeting. Think about it, you are trying to convince someone that the Creator of the universe, the one who made them….is evil. It is not unlike what some parents in custody battles try to do, where they bad mouth the other parent. Hidden behind that is the thought that if the one who made you is evil…than you must be evil too.
Moral ambiguity still distresses me, when too many people start calling evil good and good evil. Welcome to the world of today.
So, on to Zande’s comment which I am compelled to pick apart, with much gratitude and appreciation for the work that Jesus Christ has done within me. Blessed be His name.
“Believe me, I appreciate the tremendous internal conflict that storms inside you. The contradictions are enormous, but know that your torment is a sweet pleasure for the Creator. The prevalence of religious belief pleases Him. He wants you to believe in some alternative scheme, and He celebrates that you’ve invented pantomimes that try to explain the degenerate shape of things. Your self-harming brings delight to Him.” -John Zande
“Believe me, I appreciate the tremendous internal conflict that storms inside you…”
Most of the time I am truly filled with His peace that surpasses all understanding. (Phillipians 4:7) Sometimes there is a bit of angst, misery, and woe, but even these things I have come to love, to celebrate, to rejoice in. There is something worse than feeling a full range of human emotions and that is not feeling anything all. That happens some times when we shut down completely and it really makes one appreciate even the uncomfortable feelings, like grief. Grief hurts, but grief is a sign of life…and an indication of one’s ability to love.
“The contradictions are enormous, but know that your torment is a sweet pleasure for the Creator.“
This made me chuckle. Hey, no pain, no gain! God does not delight in our suffering at all, in fact sometimes he may actually collect our tears in a bottle. (Psalm 56:8) There is another kind of torment however, the productive kind, where things are uncomfortable, but purposeful. I think of the pain of childbirth or perhaps training for a marathon. Certainly uncomfortable at the time, but such productive results, such fruitful results, such “sweet torment.”
“The prevalence of religious belief pleases Him. He wants you to believe in some alternative scheme, and He celebrates that you’ve invented pantomimes that try to explain the degenerate shape of things..”
That is heartbreaking in it’s sadness because I think I am surrounded by people who perceive the world as degenerate, who do not see their own worth and value, who dare not hope. That kind of learned helplessness, that fear of ever focusing one’s eyes on whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, is gut wrenching and painful to watch. It need not be like that.
The truth of the matter is that the good things in life are no more of a pantomime than the alleged “degenerate” things are. The world is full of good and evil and we all have to chose where we are going to place our eyes. How we “see” the world is not just a matter of the data our eyes take in, but in how we process and perceive it, and what our attitude is when we receive it.
Teleology from a scientific perspective is pretty much nonsense, because genuine scientists recognize the limits of human perception and judgment. We don’t conduct experiments to decide if something is “good” or “bad,” because those are subjective moral values based on the experiences of individuals. Gravity is “good” because it keeps us from floating off to space, but gravity is “bad,” because it dashes us upon the rocks when we jump off cliffs? You can see the problem with teleology, science, and human morality.
It strikes me as amusing however, teleology, that “reason or explanation for something in function of its end, purpose, or goal,” does speak loudly to the existence of God, to a kind and loving Creator, to the existence of Christ Himself and our need for redemption and mercy.
The only way we can logically label God evil, is by attempting to create Him in our own image, proceeding to find Him guilty, and condemning Him to our eternal rejection.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
“one unworthy of our belief”
Are you sure you meant to write, “unworthy of belief”? What is ‘unworthy’?
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Yes, I’m sure. Unworthy, “not deserving effort, attention, or respect.” We chose what to believe in based on the worth and value we assign it. What is unworthy we cast aside, what is worthy we draw in. However, there are some beliefs that are not worthy, but we cling to them anyway because there is a psychological pay off there, some benefit within us we often aren’t aware of.
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“not deserving effort, attention, or respect.”
This has nothing at all to do with the Truth, so your sentence is thoroughly irrelevant to the thesis. As much as you’d like to think otherwise, I’m afraid your emotional opinion about something does not affect that thing’s veracity in the real world.
Before, however, we continue, will you free up my commenting and guarantee no moderation? You know I am never rude, never call people names, and am eternally polite.
If you won’t permit the free exchange of ideas in real-time, then I see no point in entertaining this thread. To write a post about me, then moderate, censor, delete, edit and alter my comments is a certain sign you cannot actually engage me (and the thesis) on an adult level.
If that is your choice, then so be it. Enjoy your echo-chamber.
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Enjoy your echo-chamber. Hmmmm, I thought you said you were never rude, never called people names, and were eternally polite. So implying that whoever might comment to this post is nothing more than a sycophant is your idea of not rude and polite?
I can see why IB labeled your comments psychological abuse. With all your “politeness,” John, you know how to turn a word so that it cuts a negative swath.
Becky
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You are a better person than I for engaging this topic, but the thought occurred to me:
Some spend their life trafficking in philosophy and isms galore, but never wanting to get to the heart of truth, for the answers are free for the pickin. But with your topic here referring to atheism in general, and a post in particular, the desire from THAT viewpoint is shrewd. It is not about a search for truth, as it is to present endless questions which gender strife.
The sole idea is to e- x- t- e- n- d a narrative in which all has already been answered and settled. The idea is to prolong dialog to SUGGEST an air or credibility with an argument that has none. But the kicking and screaming only accentuates the tantrum of the two year old who does not get the candy bar. The kid hates absolutes, he will not accept the word ‘no.’
There is zero credibility with atheism of all flavors, and the militant kind is akin to a pile of pine wood burning; all flame, no heat, and a brief display of light that is quickly gone, so unlike the lasting quality of oak or locust, which burns slowly and provides lasting heat.
Your remark about the double blade of gravity says it all ms bytes. who made the tree gives wisdom in His creation, again, free for the taking………..but there is that pride thing that cannot abide His presence.
Good stuff here by the way. 😉
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Thanks, Colorstorm. Ah yes, the tantrums of two year olds. I have certainly been there and done that a few times. We want what we want and we want it now. “No,” is a most unfortunate word, but if we can stop being a little ball of shrieking outrage for a moment, and trust in His wisdom and authority, these things begin to make a lot more sense. There is a method to His madness, a purpose behind all that He says to us. And contrary to what some believe, as it says, “I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.” Or we can just go with “mean,” He’s being mean, but that what kids do when we don’t understand and lack the ability to reason it out properly. 😉
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As an aside, (but not too far from shore) you must be a scuba diver ms bytes……….always bringing new pearls………but smart enough to NOT blame God when you didn’t bring enough air in the tank.when you almost drowned……
But God being mean? Uh, nnnnnnnno. Upon further review, He is blameless, always and in every place.
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And Insanity, if you’re going to write a post about me, don’t you think it the height of rudeness to moderate my comments? How about we let a free exchange of ideas in real-time, huh?
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IB rude sometimes, Zande. Also sleeping. Sleeping is good, but it does not always allow for a conversation in real time.
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The “height of rudeness?” Hyperbole much, lol? Of course, we all tend to hyperbole when we are miffed.
I am a Christian. I believe that God is, and I believe God is love. However, I can easily understand Mr. Zande’s way of thinking. For much of my life, I was staunchly agnostic. My primary reason for not believing in God was because of all the horrors in the world, including the severe traumas I have endured. I concluded that either there never was a God, or God had died, or God had very little power, or… God was evil.
One terrible night, when it seemed like the universe was gunning for me yet again, I slammed out of the house and walked out into a snowstorm. I was living in Maine at the time, in a small coastal village where, as the locals said: “This isn’t the end of the world, but you can see it from here.”
I walked down an isolated snow packed highway, so remote there was no traffic, no houses, and no power lines. As I walked into the moonlit darkness, through the wind and blowing snow, I yelled at the God I did not believe in. I yelled at the top of my lungs about everything that was wrong in the world and everything that was wrong in my life. I yelled about babies being born horribly deformed, I yelled about children with cancer, I yelled about wars and murder and rape and child abuse, I yelled about earthquakes and hurricanes and tsunamis and tornadoes. I walked and I yelled for hours, for a total of seventeen miles.
When I finally ran out of things to yell about, I walked on in silence. I was aching, I was cold, I was empty, and I was exhausted. I knew that I would probably freeze to death that night, and I didn’t even care.
Then….. God was there. No, I did not see any visions nor hear any voices. But somehow it seemed that a veil was pulled back in my mind, which allowed me to sense, to experience and know, what is there, everywhere, all around us, all the time. This presence was as real to me — no, more real to me — than anything I have ever experienced, before or since. A Holy presence, a Being who knew everything about me, all of my faults, all of my failings, and who loved me absolutely with an absolute, pure love. A Being who is LOVE.
Moments later, an acquaintance I barely knew, someone who had no idea where I was and who had no reason to go looking for me, drove his 4-wheel drive truck through the snowstorm down that unplowed road all those seventeen miles following my footprints. When I heard the truck coming and saw the headlights far off around a bend in the distance, I slipped off the road and hid in a thick stand of trees, not wanting to be seen. But the truck stopped where my footprints angled off the highway and the driver rolled down his window and called out my name: “Linda?” As he drove me home he told me that God had told him I was in trouble and had sent him down that road to look for me!
But even then, in my wounded stubbornness, it took me another thirteen years before I would call myself a Christian. So yes, I do understand Mr. Zande.
And I also know how much God loves each and every one of us, even when we yell at Him and curse His name.
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That is the loveliest testimony, Linda. I can so relate to those sentiments, how He comes to you when you are truly lost, how He fills you with His peace, and sometimes sends a rescue party. Sometimes I think those of us He pursues so faithfully, so persistently, must have a special place in His heart. That runs contrary to western thinking, but perhaps those who understand the nature of suffering are truly blessed and those who appear to have it all are more lost than we know.
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Awesome story, Linda. He is there, more constant than we are comfortable acknowledging. He is always there but we are rarely in a state to allow ourselves to be aware. It takes most of us 17 miles through the cold snow to be ready to sense Him. Such is the normal human condition.
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So many good thoughts are contained in this post that I cannot comment upon them all. Here are two thoughts. I had a friend in college whose parents held competing religious beliefs. They decided to let her grow up outside of either religion so that, as an adult, she could make up her own mind. She resented their decision and would have preferred that both had shared their beliefs and traditions. Then, at least, she would have had the ability to make a choice. As it was, she was Biblically illiterate and knew nothing about Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the like. My second thought: most Greek philosophers (Stoics, for example) believed that the physical world is evil and that only spirit is good. When the Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached, an attempt to combine Christianity and Greek philosophy was made. Today it is called Gnosticism. Gnostics believed that an inferior god made the world and that a better god sent Christ as a messenger into the world to rescue spiritual beings from the physical world. More recent opponents of religion, particularly Christianity, sometimes echo this teaching. (Douglas Adams in the Hitchhiker’s Guide books, for example.) When God’s people affirm the goodness of creation (though now corrupted by sin and evil), the victorious resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the promise of “the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting,” we are engaged in more than wishful thinking or brainwashing. We are proclaiming a better way, a way that restores meaning and beauty to our existence, and has the added virtue of being true. J.
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Ah, beautiful words, Salvageable. I don’t fully understand Gnosticism, but you’ve given a good explanation that makes a lot more sense. As to your friend who grew up biblically illiterate, just from a secular perspective I think that’s really wrong. The bible is the most read book ever and it influences everything, literature, culture, laws, so when we deprive kids of this knowledge, we’re sending them out into a world unarmed, unequipped, to even understand some of the cultural references, history, social issues, of our time. It’s a bit like sending someone out into the world not knowing how to read. that creates obstacles, stumbling blocks in their life that are unnecessary. We wouldn’t refuse to teach someone to read just because we believe there are somethings they shouldn’t read. That is what promoting biblical illiteracy reminds me of.
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I can so understand what your friend said salvageable. My own mother professed belief but never need shared it and as I result spent most of my life as a non believer. How I wish she had shared. Now I know that she never did because she likely is not a believer in the first place. Needless to say I am not making the same mistake with her and tell her about Jesus every chance I get
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Great post, IB. It’s crazy to me that teaching children that there is a Creator and that their life has purpose is considered child abuse.
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This was great IB just great. I have seen lots of darkness myself but the utter blackness of the hearts I see railing against God on here shocks me every day. Blessings and strength to you for taking this on.
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Reblogged this on Citizen Tom and commented:
@insanitybytes22
I would say you understand this Atheist a bit better than I.
His conniving is bit much. I wonder if he understands the evil he does. To teach children God is evil? To teach children that God is malevolent. Does he? Perhaps not, but he fabricates the doctrine, and teaching children to adore vile gods has been the what of some of the civilizations of men have done. What abominations they were, and they are!
Excellent post!
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Hi Tom
As much as I’d like to, I can’t move the conversation we’re having to here because Insanity is censoring my comments. Of course, I can’t respond to you on your blog because you don’t appreciate free speech and won’t let me respond, either.
So, SOM’s thread is open, and as you seem to want to continue our conversation, which I’m genuinely hoping you will, I’m waiting for your reply on SOM’s post… which Insanity has linked to above.
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@jz
To have a useful conversation, the participants in that conversation have to be responsive to what each other is saying. I am afraid, however, you are too much into your agenda. Once you start spewing out your malarkey, I may as well be debating the vent off a clothes dryer.
Anyway, I got this comment on my blog from BJ. I expect your hostess will enjoy it.
insanitybytes was the commenter above.
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Ha! That really is a great quote from BJ, Tom. Yes, many of us do that, “we love to blame God for the mess we have made of our godless lives.” 😉
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Great post IB, as are the comments which followed. What’s amazes me most about this entire journey of humanity and faith as a Christian, (God of Divine mercy & a justice whose definitions far exceed mine!), is how God’s mercy is brought into perfect summation God’s love. Christ’s “It is finished.” Very humbling to finally see & receive a mercy and love that always was and is and is to come whether it is believed or accepted.
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Oh amen! I love this, “Very humbling to finally see & receive a mercy and love that always was and is and is to come whether it is believed or accepted.”
The woman who wrote a Wrinkle in Time said something I just love, “Truth is eternal. Knowledge is changeable. It is disastrous to confuse them.” Madeleine L’Engle
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I put up a forum for John on my blog (http://everdeepening.com/2015/11/04/dialog-with-john-zande-the-tooain-thesis/). I won’t rehash the argument here, because actions tell the story. Anyone who feels compelled to respond to a 100-word analysis with several thousand words must be engaged in self-parody when making statements like:
John’s demand throughout was for “worked-out proofs.” I don’t know how sincere that is – there’s certainly a lot of evidence that humanity has greatly improved its standard of living since leaving the African veldt, so demanding such proof seems perverse. I kept on telling John that the only real proof would be found in the healing heart. My celebration was not taken seriously, so I’ll keep on reaching out to him. After all, Saul became Paul…
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“I kept on telling John that the only real proof would be found in the healing heart.”
Very sweet, Brian. You are right. There is a kind of proof of Christ’s love in action, in the fact that some of us actually chose to entertain Zande, even in his outrage and hostility, even in the harsh things he says about the God we love, because he can be funny and charming too, and some of us recognize his humanity. John loves to complain about how he is locked out, banned, moderated, and abused, but actually there are quite a few of us who chose to chat with him. 😉
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The bottom line is always that these types want to cast God as evil so that their own sins appear righteous. It’s the same reason why certain activists want to forbid displaying the Ten Commandments—-they even admit that those precepts are ‘offensive’ to them. Covetousness, envy, lying, theft, murder, adultery, and pride are all virtues to the political Left.
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Blaming the absolute source of righteousness, the essence of love, and the author of justice for our evil is not sound thinking. How do we conceive that good is better than evil, let alone prefer those good virtues if there IS no Absolute Source and Standard? Oh well…
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Beautiful post IB and really quite touching honestly reading the back and forth between John, yourself and the other commenters. We’ve all had our doubts about God and whether he really loves us and once you realize that yes he is real and yes, he really and truly does love us in ways we can’t possibly comprehend, you converse with people like John on a different level. Not to prove a point but so they too can perhaps realize this and the pure joy being in relationship with Christ brings.
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After reading x-Praetorius’ post and the dialogue that followed, I cannot see how anyone can ever take John Zande seriously in any capacity.
(yes, I get it that one can become lost in his maze of bombastic circumlocution and somehow attribute that to his dubious intellect, but one should always keep in mind the words of brother Reinhard Bonnke: “atheism is intellectual vandalism”.
Ironically, jz was the one exposed as THE “superstitious naked ape” (what a darn shame)- I have never seen anyone’s philosophy proven to be so utterly ridiculous and then devastatingly annihilated. I would suggest a refund for those gullible consumers of his created inane, pathetic, malevolent creator (or as x-P aptly named it: Zlork the Pointless!)
It was deeply embarrassing watching your whole world view crumble jz, but in true jz fashion you’ve shown that ‘all exposure is good exposure’ as you gropingly plodded along oblivious to your complete nakedness, demanding answers that were supplied to you at least 4-times.
And, as you’re sure to ask: ‘show me where I was proven wrong or where my questions were answered’… you’ve successfully demonstrated either lack of intellect/inability to understand simple logic.
“attempting to create Him [God] in [y]our own image, [then] proceeding to find Him guilty, and condemning Him to [y]our eternal rejection is the apex of atheistic stupidity run amok.
I never like to leave without good news though, so here it is: better to be found naked and wanting now where you still have time to remedy your condition. “Keep watch! I come unannounced, like a thief. You’re blessed if, awake and dressed, you’re ready for me. Too bad if you’re found running through the streets, naked and ashamed.”
Don’t allow yourself to be caught naked again jz!
mentioned post (thanks CS, this was a gem): https://praetori.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/atheist-nutballs/
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On the strength of your comment here, I went over and read the thread. Just awesome, the most entertained I’ve been for weeks. Your beginning statement cannot be denied. His go-to defense is that he is incapable of understanding that he has been answered.
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🙂 My sentiments were exactly! – awesomely entertaining.
Your final sentence sums up any ‘debate’ to be had with jz… yet he expects to be taken seriously.
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What a curious comment. Tell me… can you or madblog point out where, precisely, Praetorius presented hard observation facts, as requested, to support his objection?
Don’t worry, I won’t be holding my breath for you to answer that, because we both know you can’t. I do hope, however, that you got to the bottom of the thread, where Praetorius is shown to be thoroughly ignorant of even rudimentary science, claiming the periodic table of elements decay, moving in reverse from the heaviest and most complex to the lightest and simplest. That was priceless, especially coming from someone pretending they were offering up valid rebuttals.
Now, I’ve got a post coming which explains all your errors, and presents you a chance to engage the actual thesis on an intelligible level. Feel free to comment there. I don’t censor, delete, alter, or edit people’s comments. It’s an open forum, so I hope to see you there.
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I was raised in a Christian home, and overall it was very beneficial to me, so I tend to get pretty cross when people call Christianity child abuse. Many of them either don’t know enough about Christianity to really have good reason to hate God/Christianity, or they are acting out of hatred simply because of some past experiences that don’t actually apply to all of Christianity.
I’ve seen some pretty negative effefts of this more radical form of Atheism. One time, for instance, I was on a virtual pet site made by a Chrisian that had a Christian element im
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I was raised in a Christian home, and overall it was very beneficial to me, so I tend to get pretty cross when people call Christianity child abuse. Many of them either don’t know enough about Christianity to really have good reason to hate God/Christianity, or they are acting out of hatred simply because of some past experiences that don’t actually apply to all of Christianity.
I’ve seen some pretty negative effefts of this more radical form of Atheism. One time, for instance, I was on a virtual pet site made by a Chrisian that had a Christian element implied in the site content when one joined. There was a forum board where people could pray for each other. Participation I the site and the
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I was raised in a Christian home, and overall it was very beneficial to me, so I tend to get pretty cross when people call Christianity child abuse. Many of them either don’t know enough about Christianity to really have good reason to hate God/Christianity, or they are acting out of hatred simply because of some past experiences that don’t actually apply to all of Christianity.
I’ve seen some pretty negative effects of this more radical form of Atheism. One time, for instance, I was on a virtual pet site made by a Chrisian that had a Christian element implied in the site content when one joined. There was a forum board where people could pray for each other. Participation in the site and the prayer board were completely voluntary, yet an Atheist took the effort to join this Christian’s site and post on the prayer board, saying that the prayer board was preachy and shoving Christianity in his face. Seriously, he joins a site in a small corner of the Internet and posts a negative post in a prayer board he could have just ignored, telling the site owner what she should and shouldn’t do, yet he thought he wasn’t shoving his belief’s in other’s faces. At the same time, he claimed that even mentioning God was shoving Christianity in other’s faces.
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I could not agree w/ you more.
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