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In the process of discussing our alleged nihilistic and meaningless existence with a couple of militant non believers, the idea that the human body was a poorly designed biological mass of lumps and goo, lacking both beauty and functionality, came about. Apparently not only did our very existence spring forth from nothingness, the human body is not even a happy accident, but rather a somewhat ugly malfunction of evolution.
Also, some of these people are apparently quite blind.
The most pompous of the Naked Nihilistic Apes always demands an answer to his endless questions designed to cast God, whom he does not even believe in, in a negative light. That alone is irrational because one simply cannot try to disparage the character of a God one does not even believe in. That is a paradox and logical fallacy that would elude even the most deranged female brain.
Naturally I fell down my own rabbit hole and got trapped there and I was compelled to ask myself, “Wait, why am I trying to explain the nature of God to a random clump of biological goo that has no form, function, or purpose?” Is that not somewhat foolish? A bit like spending one’s time trying to explain the nature of artificial intelligence to a table lamp? I mean, I suppose there is no harm in doing exactly that, the lamp is certainly not going to care. Just the same, it isn’t exactly rational behavior or a good use of one’s time.
Not only that, this alleged poorly designed clump of cells believes it has no higher self, therefore rendering him nothing more than a random evolutionary descendant of some missing link of apes, and a rather unhappy accident at that, with multiple design flaws.
Which than begs the question, how can a random clump of meaningless biological goo with so many apparent design flaws, even believe itself capable and worthy to judge its own design and find it so lacking? If you are so physically flawed, why would you assume you are not also mentally flawed and incapable of reason?
Worse yet, if one is simply nothing but an extremely flawed and defective bit of biological goo, how can one possibly perceive themselves as qualified to sit in judgement of God Himself and His design capabilities? I mean compared to whom?? Batman? Alien lizard overlords? The truth of the matter is that there is no other Creator or creation to measure against the one we live within. One cannot logically make a comparison judgment without something to measure it against.
So John Zande, I did not answer your question because I have been unable to reconcile the fact that I am actually conversing with a defective lump of biological goo, having no form, function, or purpose. To make matters even more confusing, said biological unit exhibits questionable sentience and appears to be engaging in several logical fallacies.
I am unable to determine if you are simply a figment of your own imagination or a table lamp, John Zande.
CS Lewis said is best when he stated, If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Dang. This is GOOD.
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Nice. You may have stumped John Zande, and he is hard to stump.
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Hmm. He may well be the stump, Wally 😉
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Ha good one IB!
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This is a bit of a mind twister IB, and yet I have thought this through from as many directions as i can and have come to the conclusion that the very way we think and the structure of not only us gobs but the universe, can only be if all goes to One and that one is intelligent and loving. You can call Him Kumquat or Boss or Aardvark or God or Allah or Nirvana or whatever you wish – the conclusion is unavoidable if you chose to look at it with an open mind. We often wear blinders and refuse to consider certain concepts because they are uncomfortable, but they are there. The physical universe is ruled by entropy and yet we create, we organize, we integrate – all concepts that are not a function of this world we live on (except, obviously for other life). The best definition of intelligence is the ability to organize and integrate.And yet the smallest blade of grass is more organized and complex than the most complicated machine that mankind has ever built. How could that possibly have come from an entropic environment? And it goes on and on and on. Follow subjectivity far enough and it becomes objectivity and follow that and you’re back at subjectivity. For instance we get the most positive internal reinforcement (u.e. good feelings, health, knowledge, etc) when we look at the world through the eyes of others. So, caring for others is best for us personally – we are hardwired that way, we actually get shots of endorphins and feel good when we do this. Surveys have shown over and over that the people who work in helping professions are happier, more productive, healthier and live longer (in general) than those who do not. So, our most subjective perspective is to be objective – and when we are objective , looking at the needs of others and the big picture, the results are that we help ourselves by helping others- and maximize our subjectivity. This cannot be unless we are all as one – it is anti-Darwinism. See, back to One.
I could go on and on and on – it is blatantly obvious to me that our very ability to conceive of God, implies there is a God. There is no gain in Darwinism-survival of the fittest- by helping others who may never help you back , and yet it is what feels best to us. In fact the person who inspired “A Beautiful Mind”( it was based on a true story) received a Nobel Prize in Economics (I think it was) for proving that humans will act for the greater good even when it means a loss to the individual. That is also not predictable with Darwinism but is consistent with the existence of God..And realistically, we depend on that every day for our armed forces and police and firemen and emergency responders – every single one of them puts them selves in harm’;s way daily to protect or help others or even, sometimes, to protect something as ephemeral as “democracy”(which we see as being to everyone’s benefit). We take all that for granted as it has always been and we are used to it. It is only consistent with there being a God – it is not consistent with Darwinistic principles. And yet we chose to ignore that.
I have thought about this for years IB and I cannot find any honest open line of thought that does not lead right back to God. The only way to argue against God is to ignore the reality of the world we live in – to live a lie.
Great post IB. Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion.
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Amen Paul, I have been round and round that one too, and down many rabbit holes. It’s somewhat funny, it is easier to disprove the nature of our own existence then it is to disprove the existence of God. There is an order to the universe, a rhyme and reason to all things. Even chaos is really not random. You cannot have order in the midst of chaos without Somebody directing the order.
There are people who go through horrendous trauma, especially children, and when the psyche collapses, when the ego is lost, many of them will report suddenly realizing they are not alone. There is not a “you” in the equation anymore, but there is Something else. Some people report this in near death experiences, when they had ceased to exist, they recognized an existence and Entity beyond their own selves. That is a bit of a brain teaser, because we are somewhat solipsistic and have a great deal of trouble perceiving the existence of Something beyond our own ability to perceive it.
God is quite real and absolutely beautiful. There is love there we cannot even imagine. It is so hard for people to trust in that and I cannot offer any hard and fast proof, but I assure you it is true 😉
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I agree absolutely/ Have you read any of Kubler-Ross’s stuff?
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Yes! But it’s been a long while.
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Yes, for me too – however,the fact that so many from such diverse environments and with such diverse cultures should all see basically the same thing upon near death and everyone of them then KNEW there God existed – that just once again shows that all roads lead to God -literally as well as figuratively.
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Down many rabbit holes indeed. What happened to your assertions you were a research scientist? They seem to have disappeared. Were you lying then? Or are you changing your story now? Not firm enough in your beliefs to stand with them? I smell fish.
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Who said they were a research scientist? Not me.
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InsanityBytes
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I have no idea what you are talking about Pink.
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That you used to say you were a research scientist. If your lie escapes you…
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Hmm, I still have no idea what you talking about, unless you mean my posts about women being the ultimate scientists, always observing the world around us and testing theories?
Children too, that is the very nature of their being, to observe, experiment, and test the waters.
We are all research scientists, you know. Chemistry in the kitchen, biology, physics on the playground.
My “lie” does not escape me and neither does your snooty hostility. Go revel in yourself elsewhere else Pink, I have no time for such foolishness.
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You’re a scam artist. You used to say, with no caveats, that you were a scientist; now you’re playing with words to make it look like you’re not a shameless liar.
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You are mistaken Pink, a state of being I’m sure you are already well acquainted with.
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No, I’m not mistaken. I actually have extraordinary memory which is why I’m an actually successful professional in my field.
I don’t need to make up a fake career and use a misleading subtitle like “there’s this thing called biology” to give the fraudulent impression I know something about biology- as you do regularly.
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Hey pink-
If people were not aware of your commenting history and loopy references, you may have gained a monkey for a convert; (with apologies to monkeys everywhere) but as it is, good people are aware of that little word ‘guile.’
You have no case, but you do have an agenda.
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Don’t you have a pedophile priest you need to go defend elsewhere?
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Pink, everything that drips from you is always so ugly. When you act like that you only hurt yourself. There’s a better way to be in the world you know.
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You mean the fraudulent way you generally use? Manipulation? Wordplay? Deception? Again, no thanks. Just so we’re clear, I’m quite certain I live a more productive and constructive life than people of your ilk.
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Pink have you noticed that you are the only one in this conversation who is calling other people names? You should perhaps give that some thought.
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“I’m quite certain I live a more productive and constructive life than people of your ilk.”
Your constant need to try and assert that displays a great deal of insecurity. I get it Pink, you believe you are a vastly superior and successful elitist. So go forth and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
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Insanity,
Pinky may be confusing you, with me (I know, I know… How deep in his cups would he have to be to even conceive of something like that?)
But I have a degree in electrical engineering and am presently studying biotechnology.
And being Pinky prideful as I am, lording my actual (versus hallucinatory) education and experience over atheists has become a senselessly enjoyable, victimless vice.
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Pink can’t even talk about non religious things without acting up. Isn’t that right? My visit to violet was met with sarcasm and all we were talking about was places we liked to visit in the world
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I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears pink, but you just applauded yourself on your memory………………
then you have confused me with perhaps another who you intended to insult………………
In the game of cards, you have just folded. No need to apologize though; it may be best to walk away quietly.
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Oops! I confess (but I do no repent)!
I am the Catholic.
And as such I must be responsible for every sin committed by every priest since Peter, Paul and Mary.
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“Peter, Paul and Mary.” Hey I have hear their music, quite enjoyable. Didn’t know they were all Catholic priests though. I learn something new everyday. /.wink
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I’ve followed IB for more than a year and I have never seen her describe herself as a scientist. And even if she did, my opinion is that her quest for the meaning in life and how the world and universe is structured. easily qualifies her as a scientist by Google’s definition “a person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences”. She is the most knowledgeable, erudite, lucid, eloquent, and curious investigator of life that I have ever met and I’ve met a few having done two university degrees and pursued metaphysical meaning for much of my life. You, on the other hand Pink seem lacking in many of IB’s skills.
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If what she’s allegedly got are skills, no thank you.
She can’t string together arguments with the most basic logic. Instead she parrots old and tired, and mostly disproven, religious dogma.
Her blog is a handbook of ignorant, patriarchal, monotheistic rubbish.
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I disagree Paul, ” natural or physical sciences” Science is NOT simply a ‘quest for the meaning of life’. What you describe is somewhat of a Philosopher. A Theist Philosopher though I’ll assume.
Though like Pink I kinda thing logic might indeed be missing a bit sometimes, but I suppose that the impression most Theists seem to give me…
I’ll leave it at that and be proud I probably made a post that won’t be deleted 😎
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I read your long post and I reply with these questions/statements:
1. Who made God whom is infinitely more complex than a million blades of grass?
2. Nirvana is actually a type of heaven, at least Do your homework please.
3. Lastly, just because people are also Good doesn’t mean God exists.
That’d be comparable to me saying there’s a magical teapot orbiting some planet somewhere in space, then I’d say it’s too small for our telescopes to see and that it’s the source of all goodness. Now all I need to do is prove there is goodness in the universe and I have proven my theory!
Sorry but that’s Not how logic works.
Though you know, feel free to disprove this, because I KNOW and I have Faith that the teapot is there!
Praise the cosmic teapot! Haail Teapot!
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Well done. I like how you turned the tables on John Zande. I imagine it really is pointless to debate with a defective lump of biological goo 🙂
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I like dark….
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Indeed, may the dark shine your way brother
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It may indeed
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Impeccable! I’m sharing this all over. I lol’ed when I read who you were talking to.
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Reblogged this on Messages from the Mythical and commented:
This is perfection.
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If it were a believer who asked the question, would you then be able to answer it? Or are his questions just above your intelligence to be able to answer them at all? I wonder if mr Zande read this and what his reaction would be.
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Mr. Zande is a bit busy at the moment, but will most assuredly be along when time allows.
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Interesting interpretation of the conversation. Why were you unable to answer his straightforward question?
You claim we are beautifully designed by a perfect omniscient being. I asked why we have an appendix or a coccyx. You didn’t answer.
I said we’re interesting and cool little packages. We could be much sleeker, much warmer, much more consistent. We have objectively silly and comical lumps and bumps that we view as wonderful or we wouldn’t breed. But really, a penis is beautiful? A ball sack is gorgeous? As John so beautifully stated, what kind of designer would put the sewage so close to the entertainment centre?
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I agree violet as to an ‘interesting interpretation of the conversation.’ Stunning, biting, relevant, kicking tail and naming names, serious, creative, comical, God honoring, and most of all, necessarily timely.
But here ya go, I’ll answer why: ‘did the middle eastern god design the human body?’
Are you ready? Drum roll please………..
This question as stated, in the classic style of the questioner, is a trap question DESIGNED to force any answer as completely ludicrous. It deserves no answer. If you think this is a poor response, read it again.
That’s what makes this comeback here by insanitybytes so good. Btw V, your last sentence referencing the writer’s observation about sewage as ‘beautifully stated,’ thank you for confirming the unimpeachable wisdom of God.
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Okay, thanks for your response CS. Delightful as ever. 😀
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violet,
Just as your inability to answer a question about the pyramids of Egypt has nothing whatsoever to do with their architecture, design and construction, so too, someone else’s inability to answer a question about the appendix or the butt bone has nothing whatsoever to do with their architecture, design and construction.
So many atheists complain because so many Christians don’t answer their questions.
That’s because so many Christians don’t do stupid.
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Ouch that was rather harsh considering the topic. Calling people stupid for asking questions and attempting to contribute to dialog and understanding is never the best way. Questions bring answers and answers bring knowledge and from knowledge wisdom is born. Wisdom does not ever exist which first asking questions and engaging in a learning experience.
Knowledge is crushed and unteachable when the classroom is hostile. Everyone should learn that, I even forget it sometimes. Just saying.
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Michelle,
If you re-read my comment you will see that I called the question stupid, not Violet.
Atheists are sophists.
And sophists make book on selling stupid disguised as erudition and intelligence.
Sophistry is just a fancy way of saying, “lies,” just as you falsely accusing me of calling someone stupid is hatred and intolerance, not the pursuit of justice.
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And the definition of atheist varies from person to person and faith to faith. If you are Christian and a Muslim sees you then you are an atheist to them. But I take your point if you deem the question about the body in a discussion about the body as stupid. /shrug
I will attempt to answer.
There are many theories as to the appendix. There was a time we ate mostly uncooked or under cooked meats and when sanitation of foods wasn’t so good. People discovered fire and cooking foods as well as better hygiene. During this time before the appendix is thought to have cleaned disease or infectious qualities from our food sources. Does that mean because today it serves no apparent purpose that it never did? I would venture to say no.
As for the tail bone it is just that the tail bone. Without this very short tail balance becomes difficult. It balances our bodies when we stand upright and it ends the nerves of the spinal column in a protected bone mass. Without this bone mass even sitting would be painful. So it has a purpose even today it seems. Evolutionists would argue it is remnants of a tail from our days as apes. Either way it served and seems to continue to serve a purpose.
This is not a Christian answer, it is just my answer. I believe Violets question deserved the best and most thought out answer I could deliver.
Thanks,
Michelle
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Michelle,
Sorry, but atheists don’t get to create the definition of words, either.
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Atheist. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Therefore my example stands sir, I didn’t come looking for a fight nor is someone else s blog the place for it but my definition is correct. Muslims believe your god is a false god and therefore you would be an atheist. In my view belief in ANY god means you are not such wear that god is Thor or even Aries. It is still belief and not atheism. I’m just pointing out diffident people see words mean different things.
Have a wonderful day friend,
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VW, are you not aware of the reason for the appendix? It’s not thought useless or mysterious anymore.
This answer demonstrates the defining characteristic of evangelical atheist apologetics: “If we, the most intelligent beings who’ve ever lived, don’t know the reason…there cannot be a reason. And that is settled fact.” We KNOW the appendix has no function. Except we know it does now, and you’ve put egg on your own faces.
You guys don’t allow for things we don’t know yet, even science we haven’t fully explored.
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Thank you Mad. I’m keen to learn. Would you care to expand? And your tailbone? Why is that residing in your spine?
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The tailbone? I don’t know, and neither do you. But I do not conclude that because I don’t know its purpose that there isn’t one.
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Evolutionists would tell you it is a remnant of our ape ancestry. /shrug
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I can tell you exactly why it is, Mad, though IB will never let you read it, as she has so far buried ten of my comments out of fear of contradiction. It’s there because our ancient ancestors once had tails – the bone is the vestigial remnant of what once came in quite useful, but made it extremely difficult to find pants that fit, thus keeping tailors in great demand and stimulating the stone age economy.
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I have buried many of your comments. It is not fear of contradiction, it is intolerance for endless foolishness wrapped in bovine poo.
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That’s something VioletWisp would do well to remember next time you comment on her blog – but, oh wait, you don’t intimidate her, so likely she will allow you the courtesy of free speech.
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I have no desire to intimidate her.
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archaeopteryx1: So it does, or did, have a purpose. Take it up with violet then. It’s she who claims it does not.
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At least I now know that even though I have remained civil you believe that because I am a non-believer that I am a mutant. No worries names and classifying people as savages, heathens, subhuman, irrelevant has never lead to anything like reasoning for genocide…..
Actually wait it has.
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Michelle, this post has nothing to do with you at all. I do not subscribe to Zande’s perception of people as biological mutants. I happen to believe all people are wonderfully and fearfully made in the image of our Creator and that we possess higher selves.
You seem to think Christians hate non believers. That is not true at all. Some of the most horrendous atrocities and acts of genocide where actually committed under the guise of secularism, not Christianity.
As to your “savages and heathens,” one of my grandmas walked right off the Rez while the other fled Mussolini. So to try and dismiss me as some great persecutor of heathens is not exactly fair. I am one.
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Then you of all people should know what dehumanizing even a single person as less than human means and causes. Speak to your grandmother who walked off the “rez” as you call it.
She would tell you I didn’t walk of the reservation, I walked into the land that was stolen from my people. She was called heathen, savage, mutant, irrelevant and war was waged against her even up to the 1980s as detailed in my post.
My point remains valid. I thought we were abouve dehumanizing even a single person that is not very loving. Turn the cheek, disagree with them sure, strongly disagree with them but dehumanizing them? You’re better than that IB.
Did I call “you” an oppressor? No. I made an illustration based on the words you used. Not mine, yours. Words have meanings and your grandmother would know that, you should too.
Does this mean I will stop reading? Nope. Does it mean I dislike you or think you a hater? I wouldn’t say that either. You haven’t demonstrated that to me. But words lead to action,.
Words lead to treating people the way they are described by others. Words can and do harm people. My point is you are supposed to be better than that.
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Michelle. I know you do not understand, but Zande dehumanizes his own self daily and attempts to evangelize his own dehumanizing beliefs onto others. I do not do that to him, he does that to his own self. This time I simply allowed him to define his own self, to claim the identity he seems to so badly want. Is it ugly? Yes, but it not my perception of Zande, it is his own perception of himself and others, including me.
Love is not always about turning the other cheek, Michelle, sometimes it is about saying no and standing up for the truth.
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well I still to find him as a human and beautifully made. I don’t care how he sees himself. I see myself as ugly hideously broken and much worse you could actually see how I see myself in my head she probably slap me. so sorry I still see him as a human a brother and worthy of love what are you sees himself that way or not.
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Michelle, you are not ugly and hideously broken, you are wonderfully and fearfully made, the daughter of a most high God. Wounded and broken perhaps, but not ugly. God can take those broken bits and make them strong, give you beauty for ashes and let you walk as you were intended to be.
“I don’t care how he sees himself.”
I do, because how people perceive their own selves is more important then how I perceive them. God cannot come into someone’s heart if they are resistant and unwilling to trust Him. I do not deny Zande the love of Christ, he denies his own self.
As to being worthy of love, we are not really loved because of our own worth, we are loved because of who God is and who we belong to. We are loved because we are His and He is ours. There is nothing you can do to earn that kind of love and there is nothing you can do to separate yourself from it either, except to wall yourself off and refuse to receive it.
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Dear ma’am IB?
Sorry, sometimes as smart as Michelle is she fixates on a word or phrase. I sometimes wonder how someone so smart can get looped into something so simple. If you ever really get to see her mind work you’d say it is a rare and beautiful God given gift. And then you can see her get hung up on a word and well we have to suspend her internet privileges so she stops perseverating on it.
Honestly sorry for that, she seems to have had a loop moment getting stuck on the word mutant and didn’t see the entire article. Sometimes we being myself and her doctors will let her run with things and others we pull her back from them. We’ve pulled her back from this for now. She needs time to let everything sink in.
How I wish she’d let Jesus in, she already believes in the Father and now she needs the second half of wholeness. In my opinion anyway. And it’s why I pushed her to read your blog. Yes I silently stalk blogs she follows and push her toward ones I find deliver an appropriate message. Sometimes she finds some on her own and I am forced to just shake my head.
Again sorry she fixated, we’ll correct it.
Sarah
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Michelle: please read IB’s response. Despite your impressions of yourself, you are beautifully made. There’s nothing hideous about anything in God’s creation.
We humans act awfully, and try our darnedest to twist God’s creation into something hideous, but we can’t do it. Take heart. Find the beautiful in you… it’s there, and there’s a lot of it… and focus on building on that. You can do it! I have confidence in you.
However, you don’t need my confidence. You need, and have, God’s confidence. You are more beautifully made, more worthy, more valuable, more valued, more loved, than I can ever possibly describe. Run with that. ‘Cause it’s true.
Best,
— x
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If you have lived her life you’d understand the broken position she is coming from. The fact she beautifully made is doesn’t change her self view which is mangled because of her past. It is probably best to let it drop for now. She has professionals, family, me her loving wife, our son and many who are working to change how she sees herself. But all these are working from the position of understanding just where she has been. Despite all that remains broken her strength is clearly seen in how far she has come.
The fact she still wishes they had killed her also shows me just how far she still needs to go before we break through her self image. Her face finally healed has helped much and in so many ways. Thank you for caring and sharing, it’s just not necessarily the help she needs at this moment.
Thanks, Sarah
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Thanks, I know I did a good job making this right ^^
*Ps its a joooke, ha ha haaa :’) you know; evolution-> I made me. Giggles were had ‘n stuff* 😉
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Wow. This is a bit off topic but really Michelle, I just saw a glimps of your pain -.- I didn’t quite get what they were talking about, but indeed you are Not ugly & hideously broken. Be prepared to hear that every time that is mentioned, because that’s a fact.
I’m sorry to hear you had to suffer so much…
I hope you have made much progress towards true happiness! And keep in mind (assuming it was you on the banner), Surfing for the win ❤
(I seriously love surfing :') )
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Thanks, It’s been an interesting life if nothing else. I am much stronger today than yesterday thanks for the well wishes. 🙂
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Wow! Double Wow! Triple Wow! This — and the comments and replies — are why I come here. And why I come back again, and again, and again, and again.
This blog is one of the finest in the land, and you, IB, are a world-class thinker and writer.
I’m going to start a new campaign here (like one that I started elsewhere, that eventually bore fruit 🙂 ) and ask you when you are going to write your book.
Best,
— x
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I love this blog too and think that Insanity has unique insights and an interesting mind. On this occasion she has wandered bizarrely far from the meaning of the conversation, and more than once. She claims humans are a perfect creation of an omniscient god. Facts about the human body were drawn to her attention that illustrated it is unlikely that any being, never mind a smart one, would ‘design’ such a vessel. She’s ignored all that and created a fantasy world interpretation to fight against.
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Could someone provide a link to the conversation where IB has committed these atrocities? Cause I can’t find it. What I find over at JZ is a bunch of fifth graders ridiculing that schoolmate they’ve decided is uncool while she’s out of the room and tee-heeing to each other.
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Try Violets. Although the reverse applies does it not? The behaviour of believers is equally derisive. That’s what happens when people disagree.
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I think you may agree that that isn’t how real discussion is supposed to happen. We can all be civil and respectful.
I do not see the equivalent very much on the blogs I frequent. People are people, and we do default to our lowest behavior at times. But over at the militant atheist blogs, derision is about all there is.
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I think militant atheist is an inaccurate description. Christianity likes to use militancy but atheists don’t use the same terminology that I have noticed. There is nothing militant about atheist blogs. No references to wars or battles or fighting for Christianity.
And, as you may or may not remember, I have been insulted on a religious blog. More generally speaking, there is total derision and superiority from religious people when referring to atheists. I won’t clog up IB’s and I’m far too idle to collect links, but there are plenty.
Perhaps you don’t perceive the insults, aggression and scorn from the people on your side of the fence? Because that’s basically what it is. We all have opposing views. Nothing will change your point of view, nothing will change mine. Ever. Because however much you believe in your god, I am equally convinced yours, and every other one under the sun, is non-existent.
But, I am not a proselytiser. I don’t campaign for abolishing religion. I write about more interesting things on my blog. Life is short. Religious people visit my blogs and I visit theirs. It’s just not a topic of conversation. Sometimes it’s better that way.
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I do remember one incident where a lone blogger was insulting to you. If you remember, it was I who called him out on it and told him that he ought to apologize, and apologized to you on his behalf.
I remember particularly because his offensive speech did indeed stand out from the rest.
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Indeed, that was the one, and I very much appreciated your words. It wasn’t yours to apologise, but I valued your empathy. Perhaps we aren’t always so far apart?
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Not that anybody really cares, but in 1893 a man published a book on anatomy naming what he claimed to be 86 vestigial human organs, organs left over from evolution that now serve no purpose. That is still the very basis of atheistic anatomical “evidence,” the words of a man over a hundred years ago. Since then science has managed to debunk the entire list, proving that each of these parts actually serves a vital purpose today and there are serious health consequences involved in removing any of them.
But before we became aware of this, thousand of people were subjected to lobotomies, women to needless hysterectomies, routine tonsilectomies, and other assorted and invasive horrors. An appendix is actually used to store and collect healthy bacteria in the event of an infection, something we have only recently begun to understand with the new found probiotic craze. Your coccyx is vitally important when it comes to going to the bathroom, balance when walking upright, having sex, or sitting. So many important ligaments are attached there that it isn’t even funny and the consequences of not having a healthy functioning one are devastating.
Also once thought to be a vestigial organ, large parts of the female brain.
Someone asked why I keep using the words “wonderfully and fearfully” made. Because they’re from the bible, that’s why. But also because the consequences to my gender from those arrogant enough to not recognize the Divine nature of human design has had fearful implications for entire my gender.
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Hey IB you can take this off line should you like but I have an honest question. I understand fully wonderfully made but why do Christians say fearfully made. I mean what did the bible mean by fearfully made?
You can send it here and not approve the comment should you want. michelle@aghostdancer.com
Sorry to sound ignorant but I always wanted to know why we are fearfully made or more so what it really means.
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“Fearfully” actually means with honor, reverence, and respect. The Hebrew word it is translated from actually means “to stand in awe.” Loosely translated into pop culture, fearfully means awesome.
To use the word “fearfully” is to pay tribute to the awesomeness of God and to perceive ourselves as being made in His image, to honor and respect our bodies because we hold their Designer in reverence and high regard.
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I am awesomely made. Yup I like that. Perfect the way I am meant to be. Thanks. Never got why I had to either be afraid or be feared. I should have found the reference in hebrew. So you mean Hebrew root word Yare’ is the word.
Sweet I learned something new today.
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Michelle,
“Fearfully” in the Bible means in awe of God.
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Btw Michelle this is very off-topic but I want to give you, and everybody else, a heads up.
Please Never post your email like that, unless you like spam. You see there’s these crawler bots that spammers use that search the web for posted email addresses like that. The best thing to do would be changing it in some way, like perhaps “michelle(at)aghostdancer dot com” something like that 😉
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I control the filters on that email and can drop or change it at will since I own the domain 🙂
All good thanks though. I do IT security for a living so I’m aware of crawler bots and spam and hackers. 😀
/big hugs
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Ok 😛 & awesome xD. I will be doing that too :’)
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Insanity,
And here I always thought that the coccyx was my sex organ.
Some atheist told me that when I was but a snot-nosed young man.
I should have listened to my mother.
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Nice. I think I love your mind. Even though the rest of you may be a random clump of meaningless biological goo.
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Hi Insanity
Sorry about being late to the party. Was a tad distracted getting my book through those last annoying hoops. The title: The Owner of All Infernal Names: An Introductory Treatise on the Existence, Nature & Government of our Omnimalevolent Creator.
I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on, and/or rebuttal to, the thesis. I think you’ll find it to be far more convincing than the Christian proposition, and it explains those things no Christian theologian has been able to explain in 2,000 years of thinking up creative excuses… not least among them, why the Creator is invisible and so clearly cherishes His anonymity.
I just posted a part of the Introduction to the Argument on my blog, and all the links to Amazon are in the black and white cover icon.
And just so you know, all proceeds go directly and wholly to animal rescue and shelter here in Brazil, so you’ll be doing “good works” in purchasing the book 😉
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Jz sez:
………….and it explains those things no Christian theologian has been able to explain in 2,000 years of thinking up creative excuses… not least among them, why the Creator is invisible and so clearly cherishes His anonymity………..
Clever marketing here john; you know insanitybytes22 will not fall for the stale bread you offer, but you hope others will. She is far more gracious than I in giving you your coveted 15 minutes.
‘WHY the Creator is invisible……………’ That’s too bad to go through life with such poor eyesight, for even blind people see the hand of the Creator. Himself and His works ARE CLEARLY seen, so that all men (incl. you) are without EXCUSE. (hint: the host here wrote something to this effect) But some people are more adept in covering their suppression.
‘No Christian theologian had been able to explain in 2,000 years……………….’ Please. Laughter or pity…………..it probably would not be a good idea to waste good pity.
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Hi CS
Do you have anything actually intelligible to offer on the subject, or are you simply making incoherent noises once again 😉
Word of caution: I’d suggest you actually try to understand the thesis before commenting again.
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Sorry but the only hand I see is some grimy claw like thing trying to snatch up everything for himself and condemning (that’s what little immature kids do) everyone else.
Ps. The grimy claw like thing belonged to the people smart enough to make up a story that has soo many people chained to their own imagination.
Peace
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That’s ok, HH, you don’t have to apologize.
Many people simply have not reached the end of seeing the futility and vanity in a world apart from He who owns everything.
Until you can claim the title deed to an ounce of water or a handful of weeds, you may want to keep a little quiet as to who you are, and who God isn’t.
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I suspect you deem me unworthy of replying after I question what you said in your vague reply? (aka I do not understand what you typed, sorry English is not actually my mother language?)
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Your reply confuses me a little CS.
“Many people simply have not reached the end of seeing the futility and vanity in a world apart from He who owns everything.
Until you can claim the title deed to an ounce of water or a handful of weeds, you may want to keep a little quiet as to who you are, and who God isn’t.”
Well I know there’s a lot of futility and vanity in the world, but what exactly do you mean by that?
And what do you mean by getting the title deed to an ounce of water? :’)
I do believe water and weeds technically belong to nobody
Or are you somehow assuming I do not own land and should come back when I do? Because you can put an ounce of water in your garden and then claim its yours by presenting your deed of the land?
Or maybe you’re saying I should return when I own Monsanto? Since they actually ‘own’ crops and seeds that come off them. Note: I do NOT approve of Monsanto. I don’t like them very much.
btw ‘weeds’ are you referring to Cannabis or something? lol. You know how the bible says God gave “herb” to man right 😉 which I guess he did.. if he made it all. So would that mean that Christians are against the war on drugs? I do believe that would actually be a good thing to a certain degree since turning people into criminals never really solved anything. Though I think I’m getting off-topic!
I guess I can assume this is some reference to God owning the ‘title deed’ to everything or something? If so, please present such a deed. (Bibles do not count :/)
Though certain states in the US of A disagree with that of course (“All your rainwater r belong to us”, I think it was Utah?)
So would that mean that state would be able to say who they are and who God isn’t?
Besides that I perfectly know Who I am, I’m not sure why you bring that up?
I’ll further clarify; I never mentioned myself or God in that post, besides referring to the non-existance of it.
I was Only speaking of the people that made up the contents of the bible and yes I was calling those people greedy immature little kids, note this does not mean I find the apostles from the stories to be so.
What exactly do you expect me to see at ‘the end of futility & vanity’?
Please be a bit more clear in the future :’) guessing can get cumbersome
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Teh Stupid, it is strong in this one.
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That’s the best you got? Really? And here I thought I was talking to people that actually tried to sound intelligent
Or should I say
“Durrr no u stoopid!”
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Pingback: Omnimalevolence? | See, there's this thing called biology...
“…. designed to cast God, whom he does not even believe in, in a negative light. That alone is irrational because one simply cannot try to disparage the character of a God one does not even believe in. That is a paradox and logical fallacy that would elude even the most deranged female brain.”
Seriously? It’s perfectly logical to me. Maybe you’re simply incapable of logical thought.
I’m pretty sure he’s trying to cast ‘God’ in a negative light Because he doesn’t exist (you guys speak like that so I can too right?).
You see, what better way to point out something is the product of mankind’s imagination but to point out the flaws that make this Oh So Clear? I don’t even need to know what he said, for I have seen the flaws to be many.
Anyway do you know what is a paradox and a logical fallacy? Your religion. Sorry if I’m mean but can somehow explain to me who created God? I mean, its NOT like LIFE CAME OUT OF NOWHERE RIGHT? Ha! It would be like…insane to think that! Who could ever think such a thing…..
Oh wait, we ALL DO :O
Because you know; Atheists say life ‘came out of nowhere’ and Theists say ‘God came out of nowhere’, so I’m pretty sure that makes us even. Oh the blasphemy!
Ps. Did you just insult females to the extreme? “the most deranged female mind”? You know being sexist isn’t very loving and Christian of you…
Oooh wait, its not like your religion is about love, its about hate 😀 sorry I forgot for a second
You know I normally try really hard to be nice, but that… that was just something special. It just oozes out what kind of a loving person you are.
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“Maybe you’re simply incapable of logical thought.”
Perhaps. If you however are an example of what passes for “logical thought,” I think I much prefer the illogical.
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Obviously you do 😉 (religion isn’t the most logical thing out there) but I see what kind of place this is.
Basically this is for circle jerking among Theists right?
Seeing how you fail to even try and form an argument that is.
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I wonder why you are here then?
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I’d make a few guesses
1) Maybe he considers this “light reading” otherwise known as “bathroom reading”?
2) Maybe he likes a challenge?
3) Maybe he just reads everything he can about anything?
/shrug
Don’t really know just taking a stab at it.
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I thought it was obvious, I’m here to try and form an argument.
Preferably one with some rationality in it, doesn’t have to be 100% rational (nothing is after all).
Either way I’m still hoping a Theist is going to prove my previous post wrong by saying something that does not come down to
“Boohoo I have a booboo :(”
But sure, Michelle also has a point.
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So can I expect a response to the rest of my post or are you just going stick with reading one sentence and getting stuck on it?
If I should give up, please let me know
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Inanity, why do you keep deleting my comments?
That’s rather rude, considering this post is about me… Is it not?
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I suppose it is rather rude, a bit like one might be rude to a table lamp, I imagine. Wait….is it even possible to be rude to a random bit of biological goo that sprung forth from nothingness? Honestly, I’m uncertain about that one, Zande.
See, if I don’t perceive you as having been created in His image and therefore having inherent worth and value in His eyes, than polite or rude, doesn’t much matter, now does it?
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Well, yes, it is the height of rudeness, actually.
You write a post about someone then ban them from commenting.
What would you call that?
Are you afraid of me, Insanity?
Is this why you’re editing all my comments?
I really thought you had more substance than Colorstorm…
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No Zande, I’m not the least bit afraid of you. I just have a limited tolerance for Teh Stupid. Also, I grew bored with this thread long ago.
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To be honest, IB you give off a very childish impression. Now I’m sure you’re normally not like that, but here if there’s anyone that comes off as Teh Stupid. It’s the person acting like a little kid who couldn’t get her candy.
I didn’t come here to hear stupid shit like ‘Teh Stupid’ *end of discussion*, so what I’m trying to say is you have disappointed and for now once again lowered my opinion of Theists even more. Which I find weird because so many people seem to praise you
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Naturally you show up full of insults attempting not discussion but alleged arrogance and vast moral superiority. I find discussions with such people boring. You are free to call me childish if you wish, you are even free to blame me for all theists and to use me as an excuse to reject God Himself. I think that’s pretty stupid, but I’m not going to invest anytime in trying to stop you.
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Full of insults? So basically first you make an insulting blog posts and then you complain if people respond accordingly?
Anyway I do not see where exactly I was ‘full of insults’? I’m guessing by ‘full of insults’ you mean, lack of respect for my belief system? Which brings us full circle back to your blog post that lacks all respect for the atheist ‘belief system’.
Also just because I scrolled all the way up looking at all my posts, none were ‘insulting’. They were disrespectful towards religion in a way that they question it but that’s nothing new for You who has also been nothing but disrespectful.
Because of this I will assume you can not answer my questions or are perhaps to embarrassed to.
and yes Now I’m talking like this in the hopes that maybe you’ll grant me a reply that is not “I’m to good to reply to you sir”. It would seem that you yourself are guilty of what you accuse me of.
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“Which brings us full circle back to your blog post that lacks all respect for the atheist ‘belief system’.”
Not at all. I have repeatedly been told that atheism is NOT a belief system. So if it is not a belief system, I cannot possibly respect or disrespect it.
You however, did not even introduce yourself, you just showed up on a post written 3 months ago and began with all the usual attacks, suggesting I am delusional, irrational, childish. Since you have already formed an opinion about me and about God Himself, there really is no point in discussing anything. Apparently you are satisfied with your own conclusions.
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Nonono nono IB, you twist things to fit your words.
Previously you lecture me I shouldn’t treat al Christians the same, yet you do so with Atheists. also Anything and Everything can be (dis)respected. I can disrespect a fallen leaf by stomping it into the ground and grinding it to pulp should I want to do that for some reason. Whether or not Atheism is a belief system or not has nothing to do with it. Also I see you nicely omitted the quotation marks to fit your argument better.
Eitherway I think it is open to discussion wether or not it is a belief system or not.
You believe there is a God, we believe there is no such thing based on ‘Science’ and the assumption that slightly more tangible proof is required to believe something is real. In Death comes all knowledge though, being non-existance or after-life.
Also I was not aware I had to introduce myself:
Hello, I’m an atheist Hitchhiker. I believe in freedom and the non-condeming of people for what are silly reasons in my opinion.
I have hitchhiked for many years in high school but now I drive my own car *yay*.
I was also raised in a Catholic school and denounced the belief around the age of 7, maybe 6.
I have difficulty believing God can be real because in my eyes its morality is questionable.
Should I go on? I fear further introduction of me might just insult you for some reason. Does that mean I can feel insulted when you claim God Is Real though?
Furthermore you have Earned, that’s right earned the fact I call you Childish. How did you do so? By being Childish, how do I define Childish you ask? Well, replying to a serious post with childish remarks e.g. “Teh stupid is strong in this one”. Lets break it down: teh = a purposefully misspelled version of ‘The’ meant to insult the person it is directed at. The rest ‘stupid …one’ is the basest of insults.
What did I do to deserve that? Lets see….
1. I called you out on something you called illogical, telling you why I find it logical
2. I also turned an insult YOU directed at atheists around towards you and explained why I did so
*note: And this is a prety big point I’d like Theists to answer sometime: “If you argue the world is too complex to have come into existence by itself and thus Must have been created. How do you explain who created the infinitely more complex creator?” (Imho to answer is that its Logically/rationally Impossible, maybe you have a different reply.)
3. I also questioned why you felt the need to add “female” to “the most deranged female mind”
4. And then I pointed out how I see more hate than love coming from your religion (e.g. Gay bashing, Exodus 21:2-27, …)
I was also not under the impression that this was, as we call it in forum lingo, a dead-topic? My apologies for resurrecting a dead-topic in that case
so basically what you seem to suggest, is that You can state ‘ultimate truths’ but when I do so it is insulting.
e.g. ‘ how can one possibly perceive themselves as qualified to sit in judgement of God Himself and His design capabilities?’
‘appears to be engaging in several logical fallacies.’ <– What exactly do you call this? Is this perhaps you calling an atheist irrational? :O
And Are YOU NOT calling everybody that is Not Christian Delusional?
Is it so offensive to a believer that a non-believer uses the same but opposite terminology? (e.g. "God is real' vs " God is not real")
I have indeed drawn my conclusions from your words that have generally been insults or childish refusal to give a decent answer.
So tell me now, exactly how I did Not treat YOU exactly like You Treat US?
Ps. We atheists do Not have some sort of Hive-mind that allows us to know what you said to other atheists, you could however if my question is truly generic refer me to a location that Would answer my question.
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“Also I was not aware I had to introduce myself..”
Generally an introduction is expected before one proceeds to attempt to insult and criticize someone else.
“Furthermore you have Earned, that’s right earned the fact I call you Childish.”
I have no problem being perceived as childish.
“We atheists do Not have some sort of Hive-mind that allows us to know what you said to other atheists..”
You are actually expressing your hive like mind at this very moment. This is a post specifically addressing John Zande at Superstitious Naked Apes, a parody of several discussions we have had. You attempt to claim you have no established belief system, no hive like behavior and yet you take this post as a personal offense, indeed you perceive my very belief in God Himself as offensive to you. If you were simply a non believer with no investment in your own belief system, you would not be here attempting to do public relations work.
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This is a post specifically addressing John Zande
YES, yes it is!! So, why won’t you let me comment?
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“I was also not under the impression that this was, as we call it in forum lingo, a dead-topic?”
This one is always tricky but when I “close” or “kill” a topic I add an edit to the bottom of the post thanking those who participated, stating the things I learned or hoped to teach and then I close it to further comments I have exactly 2 of more than 400 posts spanning 2 years which falls into that category. I personally don’t mind comments even years later.
I would add my opinion has changed on a few matters over the past 2 years but only ever so slightly. So you may not get the teeth you might have gotten 6 months ago on a few subjects. That said not everyone does the same nor feels the same as me. /shrug
I saw IB not as childish in the “Teh Stupid” remark but more as an attempt at humor. /shrug
Anyway carry on. ~Michelle
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I agree with you here, Michelle. Insanity plays childish for giggles, which is fine. No harm done, no offense taken.
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I suspect, John, that she was a dominatrix in another life – wait, there IS no other life —
She reminds me of the sadist and the masochist who got married – on their wedding night, the masochist begged, “Hurt me! Hurt me!” – with a wicked grin, the sadist said, “No.”
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I would hit Like, but Insanity doesn’t allow me to hit that button.
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^ See I hit like. It’s easy, it’s in email click the lick link.. 🙂 I don’t think IB stops that feature. /shrug
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She does for me 😦
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I’m probably five times as malevolent as your imaginary deity Zande and yet even I lack the capacity to control the WP like button.
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I think its because you moderate all my comments.
And you’re wrong about the Creator. You see, you really have to read the book to know what i’m talking about. The Creator is not evil, not as our fantastic human fictions and pantomimes have defined “evil.” It’s far, far more distressing than that simple equation
My offer still stands… send me an email and I’ll give it to you for FREE
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I think you’re mistaken and don’t know it. Your’s and CS’ blogs are the only ones that moderate my every comment, and the only ones on which I can’t use the “LIKE” button. I think there must be a connection that you’re unaware of.
Oh, and I would never dispute you when you say, “I’m probably five times as malevolent as your imaginary deity” – that’s what makes you interesting, nothing insipid about you!
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Yes, Michelle, that’s because you aren’t on her “chit” list!
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Sure I am. She don’t like anyone.
She won’t eat it, she hates everything…hey Mikey she likes it. /smirk
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Insanity… I’m watching this exchange going on and am just wondering if you’re going to allow me to comment on a post that was written about me.
This post is about me, isn’t it?
Shouldn’t I be able to comment?
Or are you just going to keep being “childish” as HH has so aptly pointed out? 🙂
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Here are some answers to the questions I have apparently not responded to:
“Are you just going to keep being “childish?”
Most likely whenever the whim strikes me.
“Anyway do you know what is a paradox and a logical fallacy? Your religion”
You cannot ask me a question and than provide the answer and then attempt to claim offense because I haven’t answered. The answer to that however, is yes, my religion is a paradox, a logical fallacy, and a conundrum all wrapped into one. Like it or not God is bigger than the human brain’s capacity to understand Him.
“I also questioned why you felt the need to add “female” to “the most deranged female mind…”
Because it amused me to do so.
“Does that mean I can feel insulted when you claim God Is Real though?”
You are free to feel all the insult you wish, your feelings do not influence me one way other nor do I intend to stop declaring that God is real simply because you feel offended by it.
“And Are YOU NOT calling everybody that is Not Christian Delusional?”
Not at all. I simply took words written by a group of atheists to their logical conclusion. If we are simply random bits of biological goo existing in the universe without meaning or purpose, then why are we even having this discussion?
“Basically this is for circle jerking among Theists right?”
Considering the vast majority of comments are not from theists at all, I’d have to conclude that theists are not the ones engaging in a circle jerk here.
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If we are simply random bits of biological goo existing in the universe without meaning or purpose, then why are we even having this discussion
Insanity, do you love your husband (and your children, if you have any) only because you believe in a Middle Eastern god?
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Ever had teen agers or been married to a man, Zande? Trust me, there are entire weeks when the only reason you love them is because of your innate and inherent belief in God.
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I can respect that answer I have a teenager myself. But god is not the reason I love him. I love him even when he is naughty or even hurtful because he is my son. I don’t believe god is a must in these times though I agree it can’t hurt, especially if you know god as a good, loving and just god, I’ve just never need god or faith in god to love my son. /hugs
You may resume your regularly scheduled program. 🙂
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Aw, I don’t believe for that a second. You know what i’m saying. If you found out today, at 3pm, that your Middle Eastern god did not exist nothing would actually change in your life. Nothing at all, except for perhaps having a few spare hours on Sunday morning. That’s a fact.
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Interesting Zande. I assure you, everything would change quite dramatically. You have a rather pollyannish perception of human nature, don’t you?
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Are you mad, woman? I just wrote a book proving the existence of a malevolent Creator 🙂
BTW, Dr Stephen Law (Oxford) is tweeting about my book.
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I know. You’ve always shown a willingness to believe in a malevolent Creator long before you’ll believe in a truly malevolent human.
You also seem to want to cling fiercely to the perception that mothers are all just inherently good and that maternal instinct is written in stone. Bit of a Madonna complex you have going on there. I have no idea what the origins of that are, but they frequently come into play when you are talking about your non belief.
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You kidding me? I’ve written a post on mothers murdering their children. All of them were Christians, BTW, and did the killing in “Gods name.” Sick business.
And No, Insanity, I don’t believe in any Creator. What I have done in my book is show that if we apply the Christian apologists’ methods to the actual world we get the opposite answer to what the apologist claims. It’s a strikingly robust thesis, too, as it requires no creative excuses designed to excuse an incompetent spirit who has lost total control of his creation.
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“I’ve written a post on mothers murdering their children…..Sick business. ”
I know, it’s a frequent theme with you. I have no idea why, I just found it curious. Whatever it is, I’m sorry it grieves you.
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Frequent theme? Not at all. I focus more on the logical inconsistencies of god belief than the physical trauma that belief produces. Simply pointing out the utter carnage that flows from belief is low hanging fruit and not intellectually challenging.
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Just the same Zande, it is obviously emotionally challenging and a theme you are compelled to revisit over and over again.
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Christian mothers killing their children in the name of their Middle Eastern god is a theme I’m repeating over and over again?
Really?
So, by “over and over again” you mean that one post where I listed these murderous mothers? 😉
Anyway, we’re drifting off topic. You know fully well you’d love your husband (and your children) just as much if you believed in a flying teapot, or not. So, your goo thesis fails.
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“You know fully well you’d love your husband (and your children)…”
No, Zande. You seem to need to believe I would, however.
Tell me, if each time I got pregnant I perceived that being as nothing more than a clump of cells, why in the world would I chose to bring them into the world? They certainly aren’t cost effective.
As to husbands, mine is rather awesome, but in the absence of a marriage covenant, faith, devotion, Godly favor, hey, there are a lot of other men on the man tree.
Like it or not Zande, most mothers and wives are not just innately good and love husbands and children just because we find them to be so darn cute. If that were the basis for what motivates us then you could just as easily be replaced with half a dozen cats.
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Fair enough, if you feel that way, then you feel that way. You’d dump your husband and your children in a flash if you didn’t think your Middle Eastern god would be angry with you. So, you “care” only because you “fear” punishment.
Interesting perspective.
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No, I care because I know love. How did I come to know love? God taught me. In the absence of a relationship with him, there is no love and we are reduced to nothing more then random clumps of cells.
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No, from what you said, you “care” only because you “fear” punishment. If it weren’t for this fear you’d dump your children and your husband in a heartbeat.
Curious, do they know you feel this way?
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No Zande, those are your words. That is your own ego speaking. You cannot bear the idea that mothers and wives are not just innately good, that maternal love is simply not enough to make the whole world go around.
Go out in nature and have a look around. Many species just eat their young. Either you accept that there is something very different about people or you do not. If you do not, then there is no compelling argument for why we should be expected to love anyone.
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You articulate your fear by writing “Godly favor,” which means you’re frightened of your Middle Eastern god. You are frightened of its punishment… the opposite of favour.
What you have said is that fear forces you to feign “care” and “affection” for your husband and children, and without it—without that terror hanging over your head—you’d leave them in a blink of an eye.
So, by your own admission, you’re own words, you “care” only because you “fear” punishment.
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Not at all, Zande. Do you think I seek my husband’s favor out of fear or because it is simply pleasant to do so?
I assure you, seeking God’s favor is all about wanting to be pleasing in His eyes, not a fear of a punishment at all.
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or because it’s simply pleasant to do so
So, goo can act for no other reason than its “pleasant to do so”?
I rest my case 🙂
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Comment coupon:
Nice try jz. There is always the small issue of who fabricated the ‘goo,’ so unlike the weasel…………….
seems to be a reoccurring theme with you today eh, that you make no distinction between man or apes who shun Levi’s.
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“I rest my case”
No, you presume that what I believe to be pleasant is going to revolve around my husband and children.
The unpleasant truth of the matter is that when women have lots of other choices and no belief in an Authority higher than themselves, many of us choose neither men nor children as the object of our definition of “pleasant.”
Without a belief in both God and love, it is you who becomes irrelevant, Zande.
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Actually just believing in God doesn’t mean you won’t pursue other pleasures. I know many a Christian ladies who have neither husband nor child and are pursuing the pleasures of work, sport or any number of things not related to family. I don’t think the inclusion of god is required to pursue a family either. I know many non-Christians who pursue traditional family and remain perfectly loyal. My parents for instance, my grand parents and great grandparents. Pleasures is personal choices and what brings one pleasure isn’t always about god nor family is always about god.
Submitted for the courts approval.
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“Submitted for the courts approval.” – “OFF WITH HER HEAD!” said the Queen of Hurts.
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Hey but I like my head, it matches the rest of my body.
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If you say so 😉
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I can’t agree with you John, though I know what you’re saying – I think that she would feel hollow and empty, simply because she has invested so much of her time and self into this imaginary being, that without it, she would feel a loss of personal identity.
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It’s kind of interesting because if “we” exist, than God exists, which was the point of this entire post. If there is no God, then there is no “you” either, “you” simply being a figment of your own imagination, an avatar conjured up by your own ego.
It is not I that suffers a loss of identity when we attempt to reason away God, it is all of us. It is the difference between believing an embryo is a meaningless clump of cells or a form of life created in His image and possessing a higher self. How we respond to the meaningless clump of cells is much different then how we respond to a human baby.
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“if “we” exist, than God exists” – Sorry, a fallacy – one does not prove the other. In fact, the converse is true – “god” exists because we exist, we invented him. Once the Human species goes extinct, as all species eventually do, “god” will cease to exist when the last believer dies.
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” It is the difference between believing an embryo is a meaningless clump of cells or a form of life created in His image and possessing a higher self. How we respond to the meaningless clump of cells is much different then how we respond to a human baby.”
To be honest, do you have a baby every month? Or are you using means of contra-conception?
You do realise every time you bleed, you kill off an egg-cell, the basis of all human life?
But I’m guessing the egg is ‘just a meaningless clump of cells’ to you? Its okay to have it die and be thrown in the trash?
If what you say is true, then those eggs are gifts from God to you, and you are Wasting His Gift of Life.
I have Indeed seen you say that “life begins when the egg meets the semen” but I disagree strongly with that. Life is already present, Humanity maybe begins with the embryo, but you can not create life out of death. Both semen & eggs are alive. Don’t you think its a little ‘convenient’ that their Life does Not count?
So I argue, in your eyes, contra-conception Should Also be murder. I’m going to go out on a limb now and assume you’re not a ‘baby-factory’ and thus by your own logic are in fact a murderer?
I’m not saying you Should be a baby-factory, I’m just pointing out that life is always present, not just when you find it convenient
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‘A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver…………..’
Sorry for the intrusion, insanitybytes22; just wanted to give a thumbs up to the good fits.
—because it amused me to do so– 😉
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Thank you, for your reply. Seriously.
But you kind of picked the ‘rhetorical’ questions to answer, I was in fact referring to these (maybe I was not clear enough?):
And first I want to add a footnote to this “Maybe you’re simply incapable of logical thought.” I’m not saying you are, I’m thinking Maybe, possibly you might be. This is NOT a statement. Without further ado:
”
“…. designed to cast God, whom he does not even believe in, in a negative light. That alone is irrational because one simply cannot try to disparage the character of a God one does not even believe in. That is a paradox and logical fallacy that would elude even the most deranged female brain.”
Seriously? It’s perfectly logical to me. Maybe you’re simply incapable of logical thought.
I’m pretty sure he’s trying to cast ‘God’ in a negative light Because he doesn’t exist (you guys speak like that so I can too right?).
You see, what better way to point out something is the product of mankind’s imagination but to point out the flaws that make this Oh So Clear? I don’t even need to know what he said, for I have seen the flaws to be many.
Anyway do you know what is a paradox and a logical fallacy? Your religion. Sorry if I’m mean but can somehow explain to me who created God? I mean, its NOT like LIFE CAME OUT OF NOWHERE RIGHT? Ha! It would be like…insane to think that! Who could ever think such a thing…..
Oh wait, we ALL DO :O
Because you know; Atheists say life ‘came out of nowhere’ and Theists say ‘God came out of nowhere’, so I’m pretty sure that makes us even. Oh the blasphemy!”
and I will omit the one where you replied in place of CS in what apparently might have been an attempt at being funny.
so once again the question burning in my mind:
“How do you explain God’s origin if we were so complex that we had to have been created by something?”
Now I realise this is not exactly something you said here, but a lot of Theists do and I hoped maybe you could answer?
Btw I find this one somewhat amusing:
‘ “Furthermore you have Earned, that’s right earned the fact I call you Childish.”
I have no problem being perceived as childish. ‘
You have No problem being called childish? Yet one of the things you brought up in calling me rude was that I called you childish? As a computer would say: ERROR: does not compute.
Anyway, you do twist my words Again in a previous post of yours:
“You attempt to claim you have no established belief system, no hive like behavior and yet you take this post as a personal offense, indeed you perceive my very belief in God Himself as offensive to you.”
I’m not going to bother quoting myself where I debunked that first part of the sentence. And I never used the following words ‘no hive like behaviour ‘. I said we have no Hive-mind and what I mean with that is I do not have access to information gained by other atheists nor do I have access to their past actions. Maybe I was unclear.
And even More importantly I never said/wrote that your belief in God is offensive to me, I simply speculated from what you said that you find my lack of belief in God insulting(since I was insulting in expressing my lack of belief by bluntly stating it?) and I then philosophically speculated wether I should be offended by your belief in God in return.
I wish to once again thank you for the more serious reply.
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“It’s perfectly logical to me. Maybe you’re simply incapable of logical thought.”
So, you do not see the obvious logical fallacy in trying to assign negative characteristics to God, whom you do not even believe exists?
In your mind it is perfectly reasonable to take what you believe to be a figment of your own imagination and to then begin portraying it as hostile, malevolent, etc?
That is a bit like trying to claim that unicorns smell bad and poop everywhere, which is why you chose not to believe in them. Since you claim unicorns are not real, how can you possibly claim to also know they poop everywhere and smell bad?
You cannot. Not only is it a logical fallacy, it is an outright lie.
The very fact that you must assign these negative characteristics to unicorns in order to attempt to justify your own disbelief in them actually becomes evidence of their very existence.
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I’m sorry IB, but you’re entire argument seems moot to me.
Allow me to sketch this with quotes based on opinions & words heard spoken over the years:
“My God is a perfect and loving entity”, so then the Atheist points out that said God is not. Then you start pointing out that the atheist can not say such a thing because he doesn’t believe? That’s ridiculous. The words are there to be read, belief is not required for comprehensive reading skills.
To then go so far as to say that That is a proof of its existence is just silliness upon silliness.
You miss the point here: “…trying to assign negative characteristics …” we do not Try to assign anything, it’s called pointing out what is right in your face.
Let’s for hypotheticals replace God with Agent Smith from the movie The Matrix. You say Smith is your benevolent, loving God and creator, I point out Smith is actually a fictional character. You then argue he is Not because he’s in The Matrix and you Have seen him.
When we tell you The Matrix is a made up movie you refuse to believe it, so all that’s left to do is point out Smith, a fictional character, is in fact not the nice guy you think he is. Does this prove that Agent Smith is real? NO! I hope that you can clearly see that now that we have moved away from the ‘God’ word for a second.
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Agent Smith is obviously “real” in the sense that we both clearly know who he is. If you believe he is only a fictional character in the Matrix, then it would indeed be quite irrational for you to run around claiming you refuse to believe in Agent Smith because he is not a nice guy. Whether he is “nice” or not is completely irrelevant to whether or not he exists. You don’t like him, therefore he isn’t real, is a totally illogical argument to try and make.
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Not quite what I was getting at lol. So Frankenstein and Dracula are real too then?
Let me break it down One Last time, the previous hypothetical’s main points:
– The matrix is a movie & not real
– Agent Smith is a fictional character in the movie and thus Also not real
Now imagine people worshipping Smith and claiming he’s the nicest guy around.
But they refuse to hear when you say the movie was made up and thus also don’t accept he’s fictional.
So they try to point out, “Ok you won’t believe that the movie is fake, but maybe you could at least see that Smith is a turd and in doing so perhaps notice that the rest you believe is also not true”.
We’re NOT saying “…You don’t like him, therefore he isn’t real, …”
We’re saying: “The movie is not real and furthermore the character in the movie is a total douche, unlike the loving character you claim him to be”.
Now replace movie/the matrix with Bible and I think we all know who Smith is.
I hope That was clear enough.
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I/B sees what she wants to see, validity has little to do with it.
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It would seem the questions have become to difficult to answer with something above the level of “Lalalalalalalla I’m right lalalalalalaa”?
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“I think that she would feel hollow and empty, simply because she has invested so much of her time and self into this imaginary being, that without it, she would feel a loss of personal identity….”
I just caught this comment from Arch and I want to mention that Zande also agrees. So you both believe that to lose my faith in God would cause my very psyche to collapse, a complete loss of personal identity, madness perhaps? And yet still you persist, still you feel entitled to try and rob me of my faith, your own desire to validate your own non belief totally trumping my very well being itself.
You would then leave me completely alone in the universe, my own psyche collapsed, and walk away without a second thought, simply congratulating yourselves for another de-conversion.
Remind me about the vast moral superiority of atheists again??
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Um, no. Please don’t put words in my mouth, Insanity. Cast your eyes up the thread, you’ll see (July 10, 2015 at 8:10 am) I said the absolute opposite:
“If you found out today, at 3pm, that your Middle Eastern god did not exist nothing would actually change in your life. Nothing at all, except for perhaps having a few spare hours on Sunday morning.”
Do try and be more careful in the future in saying what people said, OK 🙂
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Zande, you are still without excuse. None what so ever. Either you don’t care what harm you do or you don’t understand what harm you do, but either way you prove yourself incapable of having the wherewithal to understand simple morality, let alone the nature of God Himself.
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If you say so.
I just wanted to set the record straight, because you made quite a huge blunder in trying to put words in my mouth.
As you can see, I said, in fact, the exact opposite to what you “claimed” I had said.
Will you apologise? I doubt it, but I hope that’s all clear now.
Now, what are you talking about “harm”? I remind you, Insanity, you wrote this post lambasting me. In fact, you were trying to belittle me, but that didn’t work out too well, did it 🙂
So, are you perhaps not being somewhat hypocritical here?
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Zande, I made no such blunder. You flat out don’t care what the results of your deconversion activities are. I have no intention of apologizing for speaking the truth.
“Now, what are you talking about “harm”?”
You haven’t got the slightest chance of harming me, Zande, but there are others who are far less secure in their beliefs who will be led away from their fragile faith because of your words. Do you care about the harm you try to do to other people? Of course not, all you can say is “what harm?”
The cruelty and immorality of atheists, indeed. It’s a rather appalling thing to bear witness to, but something I’ve grown used to.
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Not at all, I would suggest you find real meaning, whatever that is for you, in your life, rather than the imaginary construct you’ve adopted. If Meth, or Coke or Heroin had become such an integral part of an addict’s life – and I’ve known some exactly like that – that they can’t imagine a life outside of drugs, would I be wrong for suggesting that they withdraw?
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You are also without excuse and prove you have little understanding of simple morality either. In fact, I’ll go so far as to say you hardly even possess the ability to distinguish real from imaginary, let alone the capacity to discuss the nature of God.
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“You are also without excuse and prove you have little understanding of simple morality either.”
I disagree:
I have a sense of fairness, as well as empathy and compassion, just no gods.
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I know you disagree. However, you are still wrong.
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Insanity, would you be so kind as to release my comment as it explains your error here.
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I’m a little disappointed that we have fallen to the “You’re wrong, I’m right” lvl of arguments.
Though some of the comments are slightly amusing in a sad way…
I’m going to simply reply on the same level to these non-arguments :
No you’re wrong
Though I Would love to hear the ‘proof’
“…without excuse and prove you have little understanding of simple morality either….”
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