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There’s been some interesting discussions on different perspectives within Christianity, traditional views versus wisdom views, charismatics versus a more cut and dry theology. Many of these ideas circulate around the concept of just how involved is God in our individual, personal lives? He clearly spoke to people in the bible and performed miracles, but aren’t things different now?
I don’t worry much about how people perceive their relationship with Christ, honestly I am just grateful when people perceive Him at all. It’s not a raging debate in my mind, just an interesting discussion. I tend to believe we need both perspectives to provide some balance within the Body of Christ, to temper all the wisdom to be found there.
I am clearly in the camp that believes in a deep personal relationship with Christ and that He is involved in my life daily. He may not intervene daily, but He does often enough that there is no doubt in my mind that He is involved. I can be downright charismatic about that relationship, but part of that is upbringing. I had to learn very young to rely on Him, to hear His voice. There was no scripture, no church, no one to teach me. If I hadn’t learned to hear His voice, I wouldn’t have known about Him at all. I sometimes joke about the existence of Catholic DNA, but there may well be some Pentecostal genes lurking in there, too. I’d be dancing in the aisles if I could dance.
Sometimes the wu of spirituality can make people uncomfortable. Wu is a word some atheists like to use, to describe what they perceive as “delusional and hearing voices,” anything to do with angels, miracles, visions, dreams, this Voice some of us claim to hear. I read an interesting study not long ago however, that observed that only about 10% of those who say they hear voices have any measurable mental illness at all. Kind of fascinating research, we’ll see what comes of it.
Sometimes people can be leery of things they perceive as intuition and feelings. “Sure God told you, sure He did.” Those of us in the wu world get a lot of flack sometimes and it’s not altogether misdirected concern. Those on the outside looking in have no way of knowing if we’re really hearing that Still Quiet Voice and allowing Him to lead us.
I have a pretty good balance, when I listen to God’s voice, He always reaffirms whatever He is telling me, over and over again, in scripture, in the words of others. By the time He is finished, there is no room for doubt. He has never expected me to make big decisions without a whole lot of validation. The few times I’ve responded quickly, the only thing involved was going to be a slight loss of pride. Preserving pride doesn’t seem to be something God is too concerned about.
My husband is far more rational and reason based then I am, but he does often listen to me. We have some fun with it sometimes. Even when I say it, I know how ridiculous it can sound, “But, God told me.” Umhm, sure He did. If you walk this walk long enough however, you really can learn to discern what is “you” and what is God and whose voice you are actually listening to.
There really is a Still Quiet Voice that you can learn to hear and when God starts revealing what He’s saying to you on the outside too, that synchronicity can be a pretty profound experience.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
“He may not intervene daily”…
That is true. With me, sometimes I can imagine Him twiddling His thumbs accompanied by an eye roll.
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this made me laugh out loud. 😉
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I read an article recently about a man who decided to take a job because he needed to support his family, but after taking the job his mind and heart were in such turmoil that he couldn’t sleep or eat. His entire life was out of balance. And then after praying about it with his wife and friends, God opened a door for him to leave and take another job. He was quoted in the article saying,
“It wasn’t a matter of me wanting or desiring the job I had. It was a matter of my will verses God’s will and I had to learn to trust Him.”
Many “believers” say they have never heard God’s voice and that is amazing to me, but it all boils down to the simple fact that many “believers” don’t give God the opportunity to speak. pretty pathetic.
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I have a close friend in the “Kingdom purpose only” camp. He firmly believes God only works, intervenes, etc. if it is for His Kingdom. Me…meh…I figure I AM His kingdom. 😄
Seriously though, I can not imagine a more strained relationship than that with an impersonal god.
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Wow. Of course God is aware of and involved in the smallest details of my life. In fact he is in the smallest details of the entire universe. He causes or allows all things. On the other hand He does not speak to me audibly nor does He give me direct revelation. But as I grow I certainly know more and more when He is telling me something.
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Great post. Regarding our relationship to God, there is a mode of intuition, primordial in man and nature, that is gradually faded in religion and replaced by dry belief, mostly due to the mechanical view of the universe as described in science. Science does not recognize this intuition, yet its own existence is precisely at the mercy of this primordial intuition into Reality, however misguided it has become. Most religious people view the world as something created by God at some point in time, Him standing outside it trying to communicate with us. But from a metaphysical point of view, something also hinted at in the bible, God is renewing and sustaining everything at each moment, creation being an instantaneous and ongoing process. In this view we are already dependent on and sustained by Him at each moment. We are immersed in his light and wisdom, will is always His; we can only acknowledge it or deny it. Our relationship to Him is from the inside and not outside, though from his point of view there is not inside-outside. The ray of knowing that runs through our perceptions, thoughts, feelings, etc. and that by which we know that we know, is indeed His knowledge and not ours. He is that which sees my seeing, hears my hearing, feels my feelings. Thus, every moment is a communication with God; the presence of all things is His presence which we attribute to mundane things. If I imagine myself as a child I would see God as a safe roller-coaster that is giving me a ride through the moment, letting me see and enjoy this scenery we call the world. Without him there would be no ride, no life. He is the best and the safest roller-coaster giving us free rides. What a funfair!
Children don’t think of God, don’t even have a notion of it unless we force it upon them; yet their very Being is a constant communication with God. And aren’t we asked to become like children in order to enter His funfair?
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Great comment.
“God is renewing and sustaining everything at each moment, creation being an instantaneous and ongoing process.” Yes, absolutely! Life itself, every heart beat, right on down to the cellular level, is being sustained and created in an on going process.
You’re right about children and about the need to come unto Him like a child. Our adult selves often become too sophisticated at rationalizing and trying to reason away what we intuitively know. A fun fair, I like that idea very much. In the bible there are a couple hundred instructions to “rejoice.” If we are in constant communication with God, then to celebrate our own being with rejoicing would be a tribute to Him, to his creation. Something I found interesting, an antonym for “rejoice” is to displease.
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While I’m not Christian in any conventional sense of the word, am am well aware of that Still Quiet Voice. Sometimes I rationalise it as being my “conscience”, but I feel it is more than that. I call that God, but as to its real nature, I’m reluctant to speculate. Mostly it causes me to question my assumptions and I end up have intense internal dialogues with myself, but at times it strikes me so intensely that I’m in awe of its nature. My rational self tells me that there has to be a scientific explanation for the experiences, but another side of me says there is something more. I wrote about one such experience in The day God spoke to me.
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Thanks for the link to your post, Barry. I enjoyed reading it.
It’s really sad to me when people misrepresent Him, like your story of the teacher. That does a lot of harm in the world. What you describe is not unlike my own childhood experiences, where God actually spoke to me, appearing almost hurt or grieved that I was doubting Him based on the words of others.
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Bang on IB. I have a hard time separating my internal voice from God’s – remember “The Teens”? But, you know after a while it doesn’t seem to matter – i’m going to do what i feel or intuit is right anyway, regardless of whether it is God or me. I guess it is a matter of no longer needing a “reason” to do something , to have faith in my decisions. As an aside I sometimes get people’s emotions as well – when they are close by and the emotions are strong – even when they are out of sight. I can’t tell them apart from my own either- I have to ask myself if here is any reason why I would have those emotions. If not then i look around to see who does. I used to fly quite a bit and always enjoyed it – no exceptions – even when it was rough. One day i was doing a short hop from Houston to Newark and I was scared shitless for no apparent reason. I was trying to read and just deal with these emotions when i realized they weren’t mine. I looked around and the elderly lady sitting two seats over on the aisle (the middle one was empty and i was at the window) was frozen in her seat with every muscle tense, I asked if she was OK and she replied that this was her first time flying and she was very frightened. I talked to her and explained all the noises – flaps, slats, landing gear, engine sounds, etc. The emotions got less overwhelming as we chatted – she was going to see her grandchildren in NYC and her son was picking her up in Newark. When she was chatting about her grandies she got more relaxed. She was nervous on landing and when the plane touched down she braced her feet up against the back of the seat in front and started to push. I raised my eyebrow at her and she blushed and said: “Just helping the pilot to stop the plane.” I just smiled and assured her the pilot would likely appreciate the help.
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Hi Barry! There was a blogger named Paul (not me) who wrote on Word Press at “Message in a Bottle”. He has since moved on but left the blog up for people to read if they chose. He did a post about one night when God spoke to him and it was inspirational. if you want to take a peek at it it is at https://messageinabottleblog.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/just-another-friday-night-conversation-with-god/
PS – i enjoyed your post on speaking with God.
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Interesting, Paul. I often get other people’s emotions too. There is a tangible energy to people and some of us can read that very well. I’ve actually had to learn to tune it down.
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Exactly – there seem to be those who i call “broadcasters” whose emotions come through clear – some to the extent, that as you say, they have to be tuned down. There are also those like us who are receivers and are sensitive to others emotions. I have actually brought emotions to the attention of friends and they were surprised because they hadn’t realized they were noticeable. Then they launch into a story of why they are feeling that emotion. I have a really hard time in large crowds when there are strong negative emotions – like a sporting event where a bad referee call has been made. I was at a Toronto Blue Jays baseball game one day (about 15,000 in attendance) with family, when a literal fistfight broke out between the two clubs playing. The dugouts emptied and the fists were flying. The fans were standing and screaming at their side or the other side or both sides. I thought my head would explode with the emotions. I had to leave while I was still conscious – it felt like a primal force that just said – Get out fast! Generally I don’t mind crowds – they feel to me like a dog must feel when it sticks its nose out into the slipstream while driving in a car.- sampling the plethora of emotional scents. But I cannot abide a large group of angry people with a single focus. Mob mentality makes me run away fast and I can sense when it is coming on.
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“traditional views versus wisdom views, charismatics versus a more cut and dry theology. Many of these ideas circulate around the concept of just how involved is God” It’s more than that. Reformed and conservative Christians are wary of wu hype (though that’s not how they describe it) as a safeguard against the human tendency to minimize the importance of the written, living Word (in preaching, teaching, reading). It will always be a temptation to seek the fantastic, the emotional than what He has stated clearly already and what we can draw from the the well of the Gospel. That’s neat that you seek – and receive – affirmation on your convictions and decisions. You and hubby sound like a good pair. =)
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“as a safeguard against the human tendency to minimize the importance of the written, living Word”
There is nothing particularly clear about words. Just look at how differently we understand each other’s posts. Is it really true that writing conveys a message clearer and more effectively than art, music or architecture?
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“Just look at how differently we understand each other’s posts.” Exactly. Actually, I was speaking the Christianese with IB that I rarely do online, given the nature of this post. You ask a rich, wonderful question but I was referring to Christ Himself (aka the Living Word). The most conservative of Christians (hearkening back to Luther and Calvin) are jealous for the sufficiency of the Gospel (the good news, the message of the Cross) to save us not only for heaven but in our daily travails. The simple message can be mined and applied to all aspects of our humanity and living. But rather than leaning on this Truth, Christians can seek signs and wonders like any pugilist who challenges God to prove Himself. I best stop here. =) This is really a seminary paper.
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Great point about music and the art, Malcolm. God “speaks” but not always with words.
Long ago I posted about a woman who wrote about having encountered God in a tree as a child, not that He spoke actual words to her, she just knew Him. He was in the tree and He was the tree. I knew immediately what she meant, but I really empathized with her struggle to tell the tale. Language often leaves us flailing about.
I think Holistic is talking about the Living, Breathing, Word of God. There’s a saying I like, “the bible is the only book where the Author shows up to read it to you.”
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Pingback: Hearing God’s Voice | A Christian Worldview of Fiction
My faith in God is virtually identical to my faith in electrons–I can’t see either, but reason and evidence tells me that they must exist. I don’t expect God to speak to me and I don’t expect Him to reorder His universe for my convenience. He made me, not the reverse.
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He made me, not the reverse.
Misha…that rocked. Amen
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Of course atheists have wu too, but they either ignore it or when it works out well they call it science:
“In a dream I saw a table where all the elements fell into place as required. Awakening, I immediately wrote it down on a piece of paper” Dmitri Mendeleev, discoverer of the Periodical Table.
“While asleep, I had an unusual experience. There was a red screen formed by flowing blood, as it were. I was observing it. Suddenly a hand began to write on the screen. I became all attention. That hand wrote a number of elliptic integrals. They stuck to my mind. As soon as I woke up, I committed them to writing.” Srinivasa Ramanujan, responsible for almost 4000 proofs, identities, conjectures and equations in pure mathematics.
Rene Descartes wrote that the basis of the Scientific Method came to him in dreams.
In 1858, Alfred Russel Wallace had an extreme dream, in the shape of hallucinations caused by a tropical fever. When the fever had gone, he found that the theory of evolution by natural selection had come to him.
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Interesting. Some people will go to great lengths to try and explain away the supernatural, the spiritual, while clearly observing it in action with their own eyes. Very unscientific if you ask me 😉
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I’m not saying that these these individuals experienced anything supernatural or even spiritual, but I am saying that most scientific developments have not come about through the application of the scientific method as it is commonly understood. Consequently atheists should not throw stones in glass houses as they do when the criticize religionists about wu.
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I got your point, Malcolm. One reason I think that very word “wu” comes with such a sneer, is because they’ve actually experienced wu and it disturbed them in their own selves.
Indeed, many scientific developments did not come exclusively from the scientific method as it is commonly understood. On the other hand, what integrity does the scientific method even have if it first demands denial of anything perceived as spiritual or supernatural?
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I think science retains some integrity but not as much as most fans and practitioners believe. Asking whether a theory is falsifiable is a useful heuristic to separate out the wheat from the chaff as far as what is worth spending some time and effort on. But humans are much better at doing than understanding, better at tinkering than inventing. With the exception of physics where progress requires generating better theories and tinkering is not a possibility, most scientific breakthroughs come about by accident and are not planned for. All scientific theories are tentative, we believe them while they work for us, but know that sooner or later they will be replaced with better theories.
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Well, one major problem is that what is usually presented as “science” is not really science at all, but rather an emotional article written in response to some piece of research. Like “Drinking coffee will add ten years to your life” or “Love hormones die after seven weeks.” Hardly anyone ever bothers to go read the actual studies or consider the fact that there may be biases or agendas at play there.
I can say, “God said to me,” and a whole lot of people will look at me skeptically, but say, “Science said” and never mind that it’s some article people read in the Daily Mail, a statement like that is thought to be backed up with the full authority of science.
There’s a problem in the world when science, even distorted and perverted science, is still perceived as carrying more weight than God.
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It’s interesting this business of communicating personally with God. I do it often and believe He is indeed with me at every moment. The danger, at least for me, is the temptation of convincing myself it’s God’s voice I’m hearing, when it’s really my own and I’m just looking for a way to excuse doing or saying something I shouldn’t.
On the flip side, when it really IS Him, there is usually instant validation. Just recently I was struggling with God strongly urging me (ok he was practically shoving me) to give a friend in trouble a message. I started out very uncomfortablly saying, “um, I know this sounds weird but God told me to tell you to….” My friend was silent for a bit and then broke down and profusely thanked me, saying it was exactly what he needed to hear.
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Interesting. I’ve found that to be true, too. When it’s really God’s voice and God’s will I’m following there is instant validation.
Good news about your friend 😉
People have spoken to me too, without even being aware they have somehow been given just the right words that I needed to hear. That can be delightful but a bit uncanny.
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Yes, I know exactly what you mean! A bit uncanny indeed but so amazing to ponder.
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Can I add to your discussion insanitybytes by stating the obvious; probably will make some smile, and others scowl, scoff, or simply disagree, and it is worth noting the law of first mention, as in prime, ever; mankind’s first earful of WHAT God said.
The third verse of the scriptures says simply: And God said let there be light, and there was light.
If we are alert, we can hear this just as clearly as the bell tolls 😉 And this ‘still small voice’ is sure and steadfast, and the truth of it searches for a home in the heart of all men.
The word of God is meant to be heard.
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Amen! Lovely comment. The whole world speaks His name and the Word of God is meant to be heard.
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has this voice of god ever told you anything useful to the world or has it all been simply about your life? No missives you could pass along to Jerusalem that would solve their little problem? What about peak oil? Fracking? How to solve world hunger?
So this god is talking to you and doesn’t bother to pass on anything except what is useful to your insulated life? If you’re hearing the voice of the one true god, the omni-everything creator of all existence and it says nothing useful to the world at large, what use is that voice? Your problems are of greater need or importance than world hunger? Perhaps he could start small and let us all know (through you) the final word on what a biblical marriage is?
Just curious
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Those are valid questions myathiestlife. I can really only influence my world so yes I find that most of what God asks or changes is within my life – I assume he does the same with others. For example http://cordeliasmomstill.com/2014/11/22/the-teens-guest-post-by-paul-curran/ .
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Anecdotal evidence of a god is nothing more than a story. Sure, it’s interesting but it proves nothing. While these anecdotes are taking place innocent children are starving to death. So when you are talking with your god next time, perhaps you could do a favor for the rest of us. Ask that god why he seems to work miracles for individuals at football games and for finding keys etc. but seems uninterested in saving the lives of starving 3 year olds? If that god is not willing to let you pass on stuff of his own accord perhaps you can ask him for such information. Perhaps he can give some advice on stem cell research that he’ll let you share with the world? Why don’t you ask your god to share information with you that would benefit the world in the kinds of ways that an omnibenevolent god would seem to want to do.
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We have to have choice or life would be meaningless. If you look at the starving children you will find behind it (the famine) someone who took the money or took the food or set policies that created the circumstances. And in the rare case that the children are starving for reasons beyond human control – remember, we grow enough food on this planet to comfortably feed everyone – and yet choose not to share it. WE are the reason those children are starving – not God.
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We have to have choice? What choice will you have in your heaven? Your god is claimed to be omnipotent yet he is responsible for all things, has a divine plan, intervenes and is more powerful than the satan… still, they starve to death. Your god is only responsible for the good stuff, the bad stuff is all about humans… right? What good is such a god? What good is such a divine plan that requires children under 5 to starve to death at the rate of one every 6 seconds? There is no apologist who has an answer. When the misfortune really happens it is god’s handiwork telling Nepal they are not worshipping the right god or New Orleans allowed too many homosexuals… but when children are starving it’s nothing to do with the god. That’s awfully convenient.
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We grow enough food to feed everyone comfortably. What more could you ask of the God who created this planet and us? Did you expect God to set the table wash the table cloth, serve the food and clear the plates? Do you not think that given the fact that this planet can and does offer enough sustainable nutrition to comfortably feed everyone, that maybe just maybe, we humans should take some responsibility for the fact that there are children dying of starvation?
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Go on, do tell me how your omnipotent and omniscient god who has a divine plan for an eternity before we were born can’t change the situation for starving children. He either wants them to starve or has no control, no plan, no power. He’s certainly failing if his only effort is to work through believers to fix it.
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Why do you insist on blaming God for all the negative that happens when it is clear that we humans created the situation? We did this. We are responsible. The blood of those children is on your hands and mine.
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because it is not clear. If your god is omnipotent and has a divine plan and can interact with the world he must act to protect the innocent if he is also omnibenevolent. Either all of this is the god’s plan or none of it is. The god either knew all this would happen to innocents and did nothing or he didn’t know _or_ he knew and let it happen anyway.
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So then let’s say there is no God. The starving children are still our fault and our responsibility. What’s different?
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praying for those starving children is wilful abuse of children if there is no god, especially when prayer is advocated by some to solve such situations. See that pope or mega-church preacher? They are not living a life of chastity, giving to the poor. Most American churches suck the teat of the government to exist and the good will of congregants rather than feed those starving people. They claim to worship an omnipotent deity yet those children starve. That doesn’t stop them claiming money off the government and from the people. Religions are parasites. The hinder the help for those starving people. An omnipotent god could make is so that most people wanted to make sure those starving children got fed. Instead yours and other gods simply act like they are not here, not interacting, not answering prayers. Still, such gods get all the credit when something good happens. Doesn’t that seem a little odd to you?
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Many Christians are out feeding those starving children in our own communities and abroad. God does make it possible for people to feed those who are hungry and prayer helps to facilitate that work.
If there is no God, there is no morality, empathy, or love either, so the fact that people are starving becomes irrelevant in our nihilistic existence.
Starvation is nearly always related to governments, war, and people putting others in impossible situations. God doesn’t do that, we do that and than we try to blame it on God.
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People who listen to voices have hallucinations; they may even have schizofrenia. I have that diagnosis, and that means I have to run away from voices very hard. I experience strange things every day; I even thought God had something to do with them, but then I was told I was psychotic and had to take pills. They put me behind locked doors until they found I wasn’t a nuisance anymore. So don’t become psychotic please! You don’t want to be in my position! Forgive me if I choose to reject the idea of the existence of a God. It is my life-history you know.
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Correction: it is my choice not to have metaphysical Gods in my life.
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