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Violet asked for a post on submission, and I do love requests, so I am compelled to completely humiliate myself here in her honor. Also, it’s a huge stumbling block for non believers, something that often keeps them away from faith, so it’s an issue that runs close to my heart.
First off there are two kinds of submission, submitting to God, which is pretty much what you have to do to come to faith in the first place. There are no shortcuts there, no way around it, the very first step is to submit to the fact that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior. Yes, it is a very humbling thing, and God is far above you, but there is no Savior more worthy.
There are some over laps between submitting to God and submitting in the context of marriage, but Violet is asking specifically about wives submitting to husbands, something many feminists and non believers find appalling. It doesn’t seem appalling to me at all, but it just happened rather gently without much thought on my part.
Outside of the context of faith, submission is just simple biology at play. When you are a child and you slip your hand into your father’s, you just trigger his natural protective nature. A child submits to their parent for protection, wisdom, guidance. When you are overloaded with groceries and some man opens the door for you and helps you with your bags, that is what is happening, too. It’s no great secret that most men tend to respond protectively, helpfully, kindly, to what they perceive as feminine. The entire biological equation was designed this way, women have babies and men protect and provide, so as to ensure the success of those children. You see this same dynamic going on all over the biological world. It is innate to who we are. I’m laughing here, but it is also not an altogether unpleasant design from my end of things.
In Lessons for Christian Ladies Violet said, “I don’t believe for one minute that you submit to your husband. You manipulate your husband, perhaps in the guise of submission, but even then, I’m sceptical.”
Perhaps there is some slight truth to that, although as far as manipulation goes, not so much. I simply soften myself and he responds accordingly. The gentler I am, the gentler he is. The more I honor him, the more he honors me. The more I elevate him, the more generous he is with himself. The more I sacrifice, the more he compensates. It’s a very reflective dance, a give and take. There is a benefit for me there. There is a payoff. The alternative is to not yield, to resist, to go to battle, to try to force and control things. That’s the opposite of submission and it can make your home a war zone.
It’s perfectly reasonable for Violet to doubt I submit to anything, because I can be rather fierce, intense, strong-willed. I’m not exactly a doormat. Neither is my husband. We are strong personalities and it was a battleground when we first got together. I’m not sure which one of us is more stubborn, it’s a pretty close match. I’ve written a few times about pitching things at his head. He learned how to duck early on. At some point I realized he couldn’t fight back, not really, because his honor just wouldn’t let him. And than I felt just awful, because this isn’t a fair fight, the rules are different for him and I. Every time I threw a fit it was like stomping on that honor, exploiting his protective nature, taking advantage of something I had no right to take advantage of.
The very fact that he had a protective nature at all, surprised me. I was never taught these things. I grew up within atheism and feminism and it is all about women as equal, but equal really means dominant, in control of men at all times, with a powerful back up plan such as divorce, the legal system, separate money, one foot out the door and don’t ever let him forget it.
Violet went on to say, “submission is essentially not forcing someone to do something against their will.”
Yes, that is a part of it, but it even goes beyond that, too. It is submitting to someone elses honor, to their authority, to their right to have things their way, too. It is accommodation, constant forgiveness, and a willingness to be open-minded to the possibility that he may perceive things differently than I do, and that he may even have some wisdom there that I don’t posses. Often this has proven to be true. I may be rather smart, but sometimes his much more direct and compartmentalized approach is the right one.
If you read my blog there is evidence of the struggles with submission that I have had in nearly every post. Hubby was born here only a few miles from our home, he is bound to this land, it is important to him. I jokingly call it the 9th circuit of hell. It is not my favorite place in the whole world. We live here because this is his home, his people, and it matters to him. Yes, I could probably force the issue, but that would deprive him of what he needs, what makes him happy. So daily I submit to where we live. Some days are better than others.
My mother, who I have had a long and rocky relationship with, wound up needing a place to live, and that was not going to be at our house. Over the course of many weeks however, it became apparent that this was important to hubby. That while I may well have been willing to leave her to find her own way, he simply could not. Spiritually, emotionally, he felt responsible for not only her, but for me too. That was probably the most difficult thing I have ever tried to submit to. A few times I considered bailing on the whole idea of marriage entirely. One awful day things got so bad I was going to just drive to Seaworld because they have fish there. Never mind that it’s a 3 day drive. You know you have truly lost your mind when ideas like that start to make sense.
There have been multiple, major submission challenges in the course of my marriage, involving rather complex emotional issues that nearly cracked me. So, submission is not just a superficial idea, it really is a tried and true trial by fire in my life. I yield frequently to make this marriage work.
The thing is, we now live in a very female dominated system so many women will not even submit to the very idea of marriage itself. Some will not even put the name of their children’s father on a birth certificate, least they risk not having complete control over those children. Full control over the children, means complete control over the men. Women in the heat of the moment, will call the cops on perfectly reasonable men, simply to avail themselves of all the power to be found there. There are false accusations, constant threats used as leverage, power now in the hands of women, which can be exploited and abused. And it is! “You’ll never see your children again, I’ll destroy you, I’ll send you to jail,” all these things are being said to men everyday, men we are supposed to be loving, having an investment in, a commitment with. Marriage is on the decline, families are broken, and it’s wrecking havoc on every aspect of society.
There are multiple reasons why families are being torn apart. The whole marital structure is surrounded on all sides and under relentless attack from one direction or another, but one reason that it is failing is the march of feminism teaching women no surrender, no retreat, and no matter how good some guy is, never let go of complete control. But feminism is only one part of the story. There are also plenty of domineering men who have exploited the entire dynamic, given submission a bad name, and made women fearful and unable to trust. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
I have to yield to make this marriage work. That is a biblical value, and lo and behold it actually works. I think it could work in a lot of marriages. I have a hard time imagining how marriage could work without it.
It is kind of funny to have a former feminist writing about submission, but God always seems to get the last laugh.
See, there's this thing called biology... 
Even as a guy if I couldn’t show weakness to my wife because I was afraid she would take advantage of it then I would instantly know she was not the right girl for me. The problem is that people with a low capacity to understand this complex world get caught up in serious topics. Thire actions give movements like feminism/christianity a bad name.
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That’s a really good point. I imagine most men would be reluctant to show their softer side if they had to be in battle mode all the time.
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I agree with what you are saying here about submission, although I can certainly see Violet’s perspective in that most women I’ve seen in Christian marriages actually do emotionally manipulate under the guise of submission. I can’t stand emotionally manipulative nagging people, whether male or female.
Seriously, it’d be much better for a woman to openly declare her pride, hardheadedness, and defiance then to declare herself “a submissive wife” encroaching both the husband and wife in bitterness and hatred while the world looks on at “Christian” marriage and says “no thank you.”
When we live in a society where men are not loving and protecting their women then what else are vulnerable women to do but to stand up to themselves? When you find the loving protective arms of a good man it is a joy to submit. But to a foolish cad who uses and abuses? That may be too much to ask.
It seems to me that while your husband is by no means perfect he does sound like that kind of (good) man and truly loves you. Should such feminists have the same experience they might consider changing their minds. But of course it is impossible to understand even the concept of submission being a good thing without first understanding the goodness of the Savior and what it looks like to submit to Him.
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“When you find the loving protective arms of a good man it is a joy to submit.” Amen to that! It is a joy when you understand the concept is really just about love.
As to the “foolish cads,” that is tough path to walk. In “Men who Hate Women, and the Women Who Love Them,” there was a line that I thought was rather good. Something to the effect of, “you submit to the fact that you cannot control another person and that your power lies only your own self.” So the idea in that book was also about relinquishing control and submitting to the reality of your situation. So in that context, to submit was actually to put the power back in your own hands, rather then to hand it over to somebody else. The alternative was to personalize someone elses behavior, to blame yourself, to endlessly struggle against it, which of course just makes you even more miserable.
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Interesting take on submission. I think I understand where you are coming from, but it seems like you’re suggesting that the alternative to submission is a battle of wills. I’m not convinced that is so.
Perhaps I’m seeing the same thing as you but from a different perspective. I would hate my wife to be submissive to me – such a relationship would be extremely uncomfortable to both of us. However we both submit to a commitment to our marriage – our relationship. And we each submit in different ways. She moved 10,000 Km for her home to a place with a radically different culture and language. I gave up following a potentially lucrative career, to provide her with a stable home that she needed. Sometimes we use the term “compromise” whenever we make adjusts to our partnership, but in reality they are not compromises because the outcome is usually better for both of us, than if the adjustment didn’t occur. We’ve been together now for 44 years, and she’s more important to me now than she has ever been. So somehow we seem to be doing something right.
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Congratulations on your marriage, Barry.
I find it interesting that you say submission would be extremely uncomfortable for you, but then you speak of how you both submit to your commitment to marriage and the sacrifices you have both made. That is what you find in most long term marriages that I have observed, that is the very nature of love. When people hear the word submission they tend to think of battles and surrender or inferior verses superior. It’s not like that all, but the word itself has all these negative connotations. It really just means to yield or perhaps even to surrender sometimes, as in letting someone else have their way. Rather than being a hostile, oppressive idea, in the context of love, submission is simply compromise, accommodation, sacrifice.
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Love is a dynamic energy, and just as in other forms of energy, there are two poles. Submission is simply one pole of gender polarity, which the sexual anarchists seek to destroy.
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Great article — thank you for this. I was just thinking about this topic while making lunch, in the context of why I would want to keep the phrase “obey” or “submit” in my wedding vows (if I marry — I’m currently single). It’s such an unpopular concept in today’s culture, and even within the church. But if we women read Eph. 5:22-33 and say, “I want to be a good Christian wife except for submission,” how is that any better than a man reading the same passage and saying, “I want to be a good Christian husband except for the self-sacrifice part.” If we want an Eph. 5 husband, shouldn’t we be prepared to be an Eph. 5 wife?
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Good for you for thinking about this stuff early on. It’s sad about how the church today often walks back from these concepts because they have a lot to teach us. For example, if one is completely opposed to the idea of “submit and obey,” what kind of a guy is one marrying? Is that a problem inside oneself or is your heart warning you that something’s not right? Does one have trust issues? Is it you, or is it him? There are just a myriad of important questions we could ask ourselves there. To avoid the issue entirely because it makes people or the church uncomfortable, doesn’t make those issues go away.
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That’s a good question, and one modern women tend not to think about. What kind of man would you NOT want to submit to? Is that any man worth marrying?
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Thanks for going into more detail about this. From what you’ve written here, it seems more like you compromise in order to not be clashing all the time. Surely this is what any reasonable relationship is based on. I’m really getting the impression that you’re describing a (sort of) normal relationship and ascribing any area where you’ve compromised for peace to be biblical ‘submission’.
“A child submits to their parent for protection, wisdom, guidance.” A child cannot navigate the world alone and obviously generally follows the lead of their parents to learn. They also have very strong wills of their own and it would be most unusual to spend their childhood in dedicated submission. A female adult is not comparable to a child.
“When you are overloaded with groceries and some man opens the door for you and helps you with your bags, that is what is happening, too.” No. This is common courtesy and basic social behaviour. If I’m overloaded with anything and another human being of any gender comes along who is physically fit to help, the chances are they will help.
“I’m not sure which one of us is more stubborn, it’s a pretty close match. I’ve written a few times about pitching things at his head. He learned how to duck early on.” So you adapted your behaviour to abandon a illogical interaction technique and learned to negotiate like a more sophisticated animal. That is not submission, that’s common sense.
“It is accommodation, constant forgiveness, and a willingness to be open-minded to the possibility that he may perceive things differently than I do, and that he may even have some wisdom there that I don’t possess.” And I’m sure he’s smart enough to be reciprocal in this behaviour. Again, basic co-operation, not submission.
“I have to yield to make this marriage work.” I believe you. If you you were throwing things at him when you didn’t get your way, it would never have survived. But I still haven’t seen anything that makes your relationship any different from any other successfully functioning relationship – unless there’s another angle to this you’re not mentioning, it’s basic co-operation involving give and take, instead of you getting your own way the whole time. I mean, how many women would even bother trying to persuade their husbands to go see Cinderella?
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“I’m really getting the impression that you’re describing a (sort of) normal relationship and ascribing any area where you’ve compromised for peace to be biblical ‘submission’.”
Pretty much, Violet. It’s seems to me to be a rather normal relationship based on compromise, but many non believers and feminists still persist in mocking those biblical values as if they were something oppressive and strange. You keep saying all these things are not “submission,” but what else do you suppose they are?
Barry above said the same thing, he dislikes the idea of submission, but then goes on to explain he and his wife submitting in a myriad of different ways.
So I’m left to conclude that this is just a matter of semantics and that you actually agree with these ideas, you just perceive them negatively when they are spoken in a Christian context.
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Very interesting topic. What I have noticed, and only insofar as I have noticed it, non-believers, including feminists, atheists, and rationalists in general, who despise submission seem only to have an enmity with anything greater than themselves. In their rejection of submission they have only replaced god with themselves; they despise submission to god while they’re blindly submitted to reason and passion, or more precisely to what is intellectually fashionable. They’re blindly enslaved to the scientific-worldview and the writings of their modern heroes and heroines, to their egos and base drives, etc. The religious man/woman is submitted to something infinitely superior to him/herself, while the others are submitted to something infinitely inferior to themselves. The religious person knows that he is troubled and then desires to be saved, to transcend his/her shortcomings; the non-believer too is deeply troubled but he refuses the possibility of being fixed, this he makes his troubled soul to be the norm and becomes submitted to his own darkness. Unlike the popular belief, the religious man does so precisely because he/she is open and intelligent but the non-believer is dull and dogmatic. I think even the term believer is a handmade of modern man and is false because the true religious person doesn’t just blindly believe in truth; he/she knows the truth and trusts it with his/her whole being. It is the enemy of truth that blindly believes in him/herself.
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That was really well said.
This is so true, “..have an enmity with anything greater than themselves.” That’s a tough one because none of us like to confront the truth of our own vulnerability. In general people like to believe we have complete control over all things, but really, we don’t want any of the responsibility or moral accountability that would go along with that.
“…he/she knows the truth and trusts it with his/her whole being” Yes! I keep trying to explain that faith has a substance, it is a tangible thing. That’s a difficult concept to express, however.
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What is being described here esp by Barry and mentioned by violetwisp is submission. It is not the caricature usually given to the word. In any really successful marriage, mutual submission is going on all the time, and that’s largely why it is successful.
The Bible describes an ideal relationship as being mutually submissive. “Submit to one another out of reverence of Christ.”…”You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
Caring about the other’s interests, putting his/her interests before your own, really desiring his/her good and working to help that happen…submission.
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Amen, madblog.
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Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ Ephesians 5:21
I have heard it said that Ephesians 5:22-33 did not have the word ‘submit’ in it originally. The Catholic church added that in a long time ago, as part of THEIR interpretation. The original simply said ‘wives to your husbands’…
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I think it’s far more interesting to examine why so many people have such a unpleasant reaction to those words and what that says about us and the things we fear.
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Beautifully said: I’ve never heard or read a better description of submission. God has given you unique insight, especially into how feminism is working to destroy marriage by cultivating and attitude of, “no surrender, no retreat, and no matter how good some guy is, never let go of complete control.” I find your writing to be filled with wisdom and driven by love. What a beautiful combination! Thank you for putting yourself out there; I know it’s not easy!
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Thanks for your kind words, they are much appreciated.
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This was another excellent post, IB. So much good meat I am still chewing on it!! I can totally relate to so much of what you wrote here. God and I often laugh together about what He is still teaching me about marriage after 28 years and 51 weeks – He is funny like that!
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Ha! God does like to use humor to teach us, doesn’t He? I find that to be especially true in marriage. 😉
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Love this, IB. genuine.
Maria
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Reblogged this on Pilgrim’s Progress revisited – Christiana, walking the narrow way and commented:
genuine, thoughtful, beautifully written.
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Thank you for the reblog, much appreciated.
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Some women including me wants freedom and individuality.
When it comes to marriage, I don’t see it as wives submitting only submitting to their husbands, but the husbands also submits to their wives. It’s a give and take process, along with all the values and foundations that will make the relationship and the sacrament of matrimony last.
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I love it a gentle iconoclast
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He he
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Thanks insanitybytes22 🙂
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I remember the Lord bringing a verse to my attention as to why our submission is so important as those who know and love Jesus Christ.
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:3
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Ephesians 5:22-23
We see a hierarchy of authority here. My husband answers to Christ for how He leads me, and as Christ is under the headship of God, He will lead my husband to protect me. There have been times that I felt my husband was an impediment to my further progression in the faith, as far as involvement in church was concerned. Then the Lord revealed to me, as He has to many of His beloved children, that there is much heresy and falseness within the visible church. My husband’s reluctance was my Savior’s way of protecting me from my sincere, and, at times, maybe not so sincere (from feelings of self-importance) desires to be more involved within the church. What used to annoy me, I now thank God for on this the other side. Husbands are used by God within the context of a godly marriage to protect the wife from the deceit and lies of the enemy.
Here is a very practical example that I can share. I wanted to join with the Sunday School class in our local SB church in the study of Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Life, through the 40 Days of Purpose campaign. My husband didn’t want to attend. That was that. Shortly there after, when I learned more about Rick Warren, I was very glad for his reticence.
This is the Christian example of why submission is so very important, and I have witnessed this in my own marriage time after time. Some times I was headstrong and suffered the consequences, and then after learning from this verse in the Word of God, I had a better understanding of the heart of the Father, even when I did’t understand what was going on, that my submission to my husband was always for my good. Praise His Holy name. God bless us:)
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Thank you for your comment. You’re quite right, husbands can sometimes see things in ways we can’t and often there is a genuine desire to protect you there. I go through that too, frequently I want to be more involved in the church, but all things in balance. I can easily over stretch myself and get involved in more than I can handle.
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I just wanted to respond that my husband didn’t know why he didn’t want to do these different things. He didn’t give me a reason that would allow me to see what he was concerned about. It wasn’t that he was being coy, it was he just felt that something wasn’t right, and he didn’t know why. That used to drive me crazy! I wanted a biblical reason, and he didn’t have any.
No, this was God’s supernatural intervention in our lives, protecting us from the deceit of deceivers, through the headship of my husband and God’s command that I be submissive to him. I was, even though I didn’t know why, but now I do. Praise God for His order, His leading, and deliverance in our lives. God bless us:)
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That’s awesome, I’m so glad you recognize God’s supernatural intervention. Praise God, indeed.
I think I spoke of a similar thing once, my husband, whether intentional or not, simply said once he wasn’t trying to be reasonable. It’s somewhat amusing now, but once he admitted that, I really no longer required an elaborate explanation. It’s a bit funny, but it seems perfectly rational to accommodate someone who simply “has a feeling” or “isn’t comfortable with this.” I can respect and trust that far better then an elaborate argument trying to prove your point. And yes, God s often speaking within those intuitive moments, so there is also that. 😉
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I didn’t at the time, but in retrospect I did. He revealed to me why He used my husband the way that He did. Now my husband and I read the Word together and we are both wowed by what we read. How much better is that than studying the works of men. It is really funny, my husband doesn’t like to read, he will read magazines, but he doesn’t read books. I love to read and bought many “Christian” books. He put up with me. Then my Lord and God Jesus Christ revealed that much of what I read was just man centered teaching and mere opinion. Praise His name for His goodness to us. How much deeper would that trap be if my husband was also a voracious reader. Now, because of God’s grace and leading, we are content to read God’s Word together, and my husband is now praying for God’s help in his own day to day life, something that is a super blessing to my soul. All of this again, because God taught me from His Word about the protective headship of my husband and gave me the ability to submit to my husband’s leading, even when I had no idea why. Praise God’s Holy name!
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Here is a recent post regarding God empowered submission which is very different from the world’s brand. God bless us.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/obedience/
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Thank you for the link. I’ll read 😉
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