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attraction, biology, games people play, love, narcissism, women
LuckyOtter blogs quite a bit about narcissism and does a great job. She’s been researching narcissism for some time now, while I’ve been researching biology, women, and attraction.
Love is an awesome thing, I much prefer immersing myself in love gone right, but one thing that makes the miracle of love really stand out, is an awareness of how easily it can go all wrong. That is the stuff of nightmares and horror stories. The vampire’s seductive and hypnotizing gaze, that concept must have came from a human psyche that had observed narcissism in action.
So, cult leaders, gurus, narcissists, and assorted other psychopaths, have the power and charisma to pull people towards them, to create attraction. Men get tangled up in these relationships too, and there certainly are female narcissists, but I wanted to focus on women and the biological vulnerabilities we have that sometimes allow these guys to bypass our ability to reason.
Charles Manson just got himself married. The news is full of bizarre stories of former beauty queens hooking up with convicted felons and coming to unfortunate ends. There’s a lot of psychology entwined in there, no matter how beautiful some women may appear on the outside, they don’t feel that way about themselves on the inside. Then there are childhood patterns, what’s familiar and how we inadvertently seek the familiar, even when it comes from a toxic place. Then there is just plain old biological attraction gone awry.
So what can make narcissists so appealing? They give the illusion of thinking highly of themselves, they tend to exude confidence and self worth. That’s attractive to women, and narcissists are quite good at promoting that deception. I say deception, because narcs really are not confident or self assured at all, they’re actually weak and they take arrogance to a whole new level, but women can’t always pick up on those subtleties. There’s also a paradox, a mystery woven in there. Women often are attracted to riddles waiting to be solved. Men for example, who are strong but gentle at the same time, have within them a pleasing paradox. Narcissists words don’t match the feelings they create, so there’s a paradox lurking there, they say these charming things, but there’s something icky going on, too.
For the record, I am not attracted to narcissists, although I can spot them across a crowded room like a radar homing in on a signal. They tend to avoid me like the plague, in fact they can be instantly hostile. I can see them for what they are and I suspect they don’t like it very much. Possibly they pick up on my hostility, I certainly have the urge to expose them as the charlatans and con artists they are.
LuckyOtter quotes Sam Vaknin who wrote “Malignant Self Love” and an interview he gave explaining why he wrote the book. He is a narcissist extraodinaire with the capacity for some self awareness, but only from the perspective of admiring and reveling in his own flaws. He said something interesting however, he said, “This satisfies the enfant terrible in me, the part of me that seeks to be despised, abhorred, derided and, ultimately, punished by society at large.”
That’s it precisely, that’s what lurks in the heart of most narcissists. I have a saying I use frequently, “what you seek, you will destroy.” That actually comes from an old video game, but it’s also a concept in psychology where we fulfill our own prophecies, follow the dark things that lurk in our hearts. People may say they want a good relationship, but even if you find the most perfect person in the world, if your heart is full of darkness, if you seek to be despised, abhorred, derided, you will be compelled to destroy the goodness in another person because it now threatens your prime directive.
That is the danger that lies beneath the surface of narcissism. They are compelled to destroy anything that does not validate and reinforce that deep seated self hatred that lies buried within them. So the kinder you are to a narcissist, the more you try to accommodate them, to comply, the more they will hate and despise you. If you follow this path for too long, they will eventually destroy you.
I talk a lot about men and women and submission and biblical insights into how to make those relationships an even more pleasant dance. Narcissism however, throws a wrench in things, because the worst thing women can do is to try and submit to a narcissist. The more you submit, the more they will hate you, until you really do become the one thing they despise the most.
There’s an old fashioned saying, “men not under authority have no authority.” It’s a really good principle to follow. There are men who are non believers who still submit to an idea greater then their own selves, perhaps their concept of empathy or an awareness of right or wrong. Women can submit to non believing husbands or imperfect men or whatever, and I think it can really help to strengthen relationships. Narcissism however, is an entirely different beast. Anybody trapped in a relationship with that kind of malignancy, is fighting a battle they have very little chance of ever winning.
To those churchian gamers who think if they just figure out how to imitate a narcissist in a quest to exploit women, “exploit” is the key word there. If you think you need to exploit women in order to attract them to you, you haven’t got a very high opinion of yourself. Anybody who believes you have to con, manipulate, or deceive women into loving you, despises their own self and yes, what you seek, you will eventually destroy.
Reblogged this on a safe place and commented:
Excellent article by one of my favorite bloggers.
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Human relationships never cease to amaze me. There are so many intricacies to each match. I sometimes wonder if I’m missing a lot in my canine relationships. We boil them down to whether we enjoy being together and want to protect each other. That’s way to simple, I must be missing something.
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LOL, no you’re not missing anything. Dogs are simply better at relationships then people are. One of the smartest things dogs do is bear no resentment and always act excited to see you. That’s what humans need to do too, great each other at the door with excitement as if you’ve just encountered the best thing since sliced bread. Just don’t lick each other, that’s gross 😉
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“Men get tangled up in these relationships too, and there certainly are female narcissists, but I wanted to focus on women and the biological vulnerabilities we have that sometimes allow these guys to bypass our ability to reason.”
You just had this discussion.
Men objectify women because they are wired to do so… and they wish to be objectified as that makes sense to them (men).
Women overthink the world (Thank God.) which keeps men alive for the most part. They wish men to overthink the world as that makes sense to them (women).
The biological imepratives exist even within those suffering from hundred-year-old Fruedian maladies.
End the end it works… if not to allow us to understand eachother, to keep us around for a little longer.
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I do have this discussion frequently. Biological imperatives never cease to amaze me. Also, it’s a great diversion from the anxiety of politics. Sometimes I like to focus on more cheery things…like malignant narcissists 😉
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I forgot to add that a self aware narcissist should have a classification all their own. The destruction one could wreak must rise to monumental levels. I would also suspect that women could rise to such heights due to their ability to overthink everything. I will postulate that there are far more women who exhibit such behavior than men… could it be they, being the smarter of the two sexes, simply set their goals slightly lower and don’t attract the attention given to the men.
When is the last time we heard multitudinal stories of Black Widowers… why doesn’t ‘Golddigger’ prompt the image of John Kerry? Etc. Etc.
Men tend to be brutish and primative in their behavior.
Women needs special labels.
Much like the color wheel. To me it’s Red. To my wife it falls somewhere between Magenta and Crimson depending on where it is placed in the room and the supply of natural light….
And it’s good.
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Oh, women as narcissists are more than capable of destruction, complete annihilation actually.
What’s different however, is that female narcissists rarely have the same number of groupies. So somebody like Sam Vaknin writes a book about his own pathologies and suddenly he has all these strange women stalking him. That’s so predictable and completely irrational, it’s almost amusing.
Women actually have a responsibility here, to our own selves of course, a bit of self preservation and self awareness is always good, but also a responsibility to these broken and dysfunctional men. Needless to say, writing them love letters and flattering the most dysfunctional among us with endless attention, just helps reinforce their own brokenness.
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Aside from walking past the “broken and dysfunctional men”, I’m not sure what responsibility anyone has… women or otherwise.
In the end, we all get what we deserve. And we all deserve what we choose to get.
Evolution doens’t provdie for ‘helping’ those that we deem dysfunctional. They either make it in the world and pass on their genes, or they do not. Anything beyond that is enabling problems for future generations.
I’m mean. I seek to crush the spirits of all around me… because my cold, dark, shriveled heart jumps at the taste of innocent tears. Viva Enfant Terrible! (Please yell the last line in a super snotty, arrogant self-absorbed manner… to get the appropriate french pronunciation.)
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“Evolution doesn’t provide for ‘helping’ those that we deem dysfunctional.”
Well now, here’s where things get interesting. “Evolution” seems to have done exactly that, since biology has gone and lent the dysfunctional a helping hand there. So much for survival of the fittest. At the rate we’re going, we seem to be evolving so rapidly, we’re actually starting to progress backwards. We should arrive at the planet of the apes any day now. Now that is certain to enable problems for future generations.
So scratch evolution, it doesn’t seem to be working out 😉
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May be so… I have this conversation with my Eco Terrorist friends when they try to remove Humans from nature. Our ability to interfere with the evolutionary process must be considered natural… else what would it be? I have to go now and squeeze my head…
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Very, very good piece and it matches my own personal experience with narcs.
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I think people’s perceptions of narcissism are also self-fulfilling prophecies. The idea that a narcissist will hate themselves, will dislike being called out as a narcissist, will want to manipulate you or will discard you if they see nothing of merit makes narcissism harder to spot and understand. I meet the DSMV criteria for narcissism, though it is not clinical as I enjoy it and use every trait to my personal advantage (to be clinical it must affect your quality of life, previously your ability to function). Yet everyone who knows me casually or professionally is pretty sure I’m kind and sweet, that I like them as people, that I like helping people, that I’m humble, etc. Only going off things I’ve actually heard as my own impressions are even more over the top. Only around five or six people have seen enough of me to work out what’s going on and they also have their own issues which are hidden from most people they know. I’ve even had self-proclaimed “weirdo spotters” go on rants at me about how fake most people are, how you can’t trust them, how transparent personality disorders are, etc. Asking me to confirm their suspicions, to agree that so-and-so may be a sociopath, to pat them on the back for being so empathic. And it entertains me that they don’t realize they’re talking to one such fake weirdo.
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great posting. you do a very nice job at getting what lies beneath the surface of narcissism.
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“Anybody who believes that you have to con, manipulate, or deceive women into loving you despises their own selves, and yes, will you seek you will eventually destroy.”
What these Churchian Gamers also don’t realize is that the types of women who are receptive to this kind of manipulation are also not very high-value or with high self-esteem. The more these men engage in pursuing these kinds of women, the further they remove themselves from their ideals and end up in a downward spiral in all their relationships.
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Great point, Eric. Many of those churchian gamers just come across as insecure and rather miserable. They talk all bold and blustery, bragging about all their conquests, and yet it just rings hollow. Many of the married ones never talk about how happy they are, they act as if marriage were a cross they have to bear and how women are incapable of ever loving them simply for themselves.
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IB2:
That’s a good point; the Gamers never talk about how happy their relationships are. Even the married ones don’t talk about their families in any more than a vague way.
For example, Dalrock is married—yet you’d hard pressed after reading him to learn anything whatsoever about his wife. He does talk quite a lot though about men and their successful second and third marriages though.
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Aren’t all humans narcissists to various extents? I mean it takes some self-love to love and take better care of one’s offsprings to the neglect of the offsprings of other humans, right? Aside that, bear in mind that narcissism is a key character requirement for a career in politics.
I knew two men in my neighborhood. One was completely narcissistic; the other was very selfless, agreeable and extremely kind but he is dead now. His stubborn wife killed him through slow poisoning. The narcissist though miserable, is still alive. I think moderation is key here.
When it comes to women and attraction, I think most ot them are pre-destined to suffer first. I had a cousin whose marriage everyone descouraged but she went into it saying: “This is the kind of man I want, if any evil comes let it befall me.”
Well, the evil of adultery and physical abuse did come and did befall her. Her swollen face told the story.
Another girl I knew said, “I know he smokes and drinks and deals in drugs but he is the only man I yearn for. ”
Pitiful, isn’t it? A woman, mostly young, is a glossy and a shallow creature. She can’t and is not intetested in seeing deep into things.
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I suspect narcissism does work on a kind of continuum and we all have elements of it. At the far end however, it simply becomes pathological.
There is a certain amount of truth to what you say about women. However, I suspect if women were not “glossy and shallow” when we were young, we would never get involved with men at all and the human race would have simply ceased to exist. It is that same lack of wisdom and that inability to discern that makes us wiling and able to have relationships with men.
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Great post. Some additional relevant resources:
Narcissists and Personality disordered Mates, Spouses, and Partners
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5013
Narcissists, psychopaths, sex, and marital fidelity
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4920
Projection and Projective Identification – Abuser in Denial
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5002
Approach-Avoidance Repetition Complex and Fear of Intimacy
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/5000
The Narcissist or Psychopath Hates your Independence and Personal Autonomy
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4959
I miss him so much – I want him back!
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/narcissisticabuse/conversations/messages/4934
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Reblogged this on HelpingOthersHelpThemselves.
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