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biblical values, Christ, cranky people, divorce, downward spirals, faith, forgiveness, hypocrisy, love, marriage, morality, pride, shame
Shame is a toxic thing that just percolates in people. Shame is defined as “feelings of unworthiness” or “to cause disgrace.”
Some people are very attached to the idea of shame and get rather cranky when I suggest that it’s a terrible weapon to try and use against others. Shame is how you discipline people, make them feel bad so they are motivated to change, isn’t it? No. No, it isn’t.
Shame is how you make somebody feel small, so you can feel big. It is not about the other person at all, it is about your own pride. Your desire to cure somebody, to save them, to teach them to mend their ways. Some people are so confused they think shaming people is a form of love. Complete nonsense. Shaming people is about puffing up your own pride.
Dogs do not feel shame, something people always insist on believing. Look at those little puppy dog eyes, he feels so bad. No he doesn’t. He’s learned to play you. Dogs are darn near psychic when it comes to human behavior, they know us better then we know ourselves and their survival is often somewhat dependent on gaming us. Yes, gaming us, my little gaming brothers of the gaming cult. Game is such a cheap parlor trick, dogs have mastered it. If you don’t think dogs play their owners, then you’re not lying on a fancy bed in front of a fire waiting for your next free meal in a household that tends to revolve around your every whim.
People’s poor behavior often comes from walled off shame that’s become an infection, all covered up and circled by pride. Their hearts are no longer soft, they’re resistant and defiant. Sometimes people are in such a state of self loathing and feelings of unworthiness, they can’t love themselves, let alone anyone else.
Christians especially need to really explore this issue because it’s a fascinating one that can bring you a lot of insights into human behavior. One reason it’s important is that the church’s tendency to try and shame people into compliance has driven many people away from religion, sometimes away from Christ Himself. It’s also set up the opportunity for accusations of hypocrisy against the church. Nothing soothes wounded pride quite like watching the wounders get a dose of their own medicine. Even I find that a bit amusing.
If one truly believes in absolute truth, in objective morality, then one does not go looking for buttons to push inside of others that will make them feel bad. When we do that, we’re saying that morality is innate and biological and that we don’t really trust in God’s power to reach people. We may say we believe in objective morality, but we’re really all about the biology. And all about this idea that God is not big and bad enough to deal with people, so we have to do it for Him.
If you read the book, it explains everything. Adam and Eve pick up shame in the garden from the serpent. Shame does not come from God, in fact he covers them with skins. Christ comes to Earth and He takes our shame and condemnation upon Himself on the cross. Shame is such a negative thing, that Christ actually died to free us from it. We were never intended to live in shame.
If you read about Christ’s walk on Earth, He actually never tried to shame anybody. He entices people with love, with reason, with parables, with miracles. Shaming people is a passive aggressive weapon used by the powerless. Christ was infinitely powerful. He didn’t stand outside the temple telling the moneychangers they should be ashamed of themselves or glaring at them in disgust, he flat out went in with a whip and starting turning over tables.
Standing up for biblical values without shaming people is a very difficult walk. It is however, what Christ taught us to do and it can render incredible fruits. Sometimes when I talk about the joys of marriage, I make my divorced friends uncomfortable. They think I’m shaming them. Not at all. If you are feeling ashamed, it is because you haven’t forgiven yourself and availed yourself of Christ’s mercy and redemption. There’s a little secret hidden in there, surrender your pride to Christ and you will never feel the weight of other people’s shaming tactics again.
Today I am absolutely shameless. That may freak some people out because they fear I no longer answer to anybody. They would be right, I no longer answer to anybody. I answer to Christ. If a Christian doesn’t trust in Christ’s ability to lead me, that doesn’t say much about your respect for who God really is and what He’s capable of.
*For my little atheist friends who are always so concerned about my level of submission to my husband, yes I submit to him, too. That’s really kind of a no brainer. Who wants to try and have a symbiotic relationship based on resistance and refusal to ever yield? I’m not even sure that’s possible.
Excellent points IB.
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Well said, people shame with the intent to control and hurt others, period. As difficult as it may be we can choose not to take on that burden they attempt to impose on us.
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Hi IB-
Difficult topic. You have my condolences and respect 😉
When the Lord told the men to ‘cast the first stone,’ their conscience was enough; when the Lord told the woman she had five husbands, He was merely pointing out to her that He knew her very well; .
When we tell folks that Christ for our sins, they have every right to say ‘what sins?’ After we say ‘hmmmmm,’ if they wish, we can mention everything under the sun.
Could you then elaborate on the concatenation between the PERCEPTION of a sinner being shamed by the messenger, with the reality that the word of God and the conscience does the shaming?
I realize the egregiousness of the gaming cult, but what about Joe Normal, who feels he is being shamed when we tell him he is a sinner, and when he asks for proof, we lay out what scripture calls sin; then he accuses us of attack.
(the dog paragraph was pretty darn cool)
tkx
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It is a difficult walk to point out the sin without shaming the sinner. You just have to gently stand up for the truth over and over again and make sure they can see the love of Christ in you. Those who tend to go on the defensive and attack are those who need Christ the most, because that’s where all the mercy and redemption is. What tends to make people resistant is this idea that they’re being looked down upon, that you’re trying to lord power over them.
Sometimes you just have to let it go too and trust that God will water the seeds you’ve planted.
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This is where I have to disagree. While shame can be misdirected and misused, it is vital to enforcing the standards of a civilized society.
Example: It was once–and still is, among civilized people–considered shameful to accept charity from anyone. You were supposed to be a producer, not a parasite. You were expected to give, not take. This shame impelled you to keep your life together, and if things really did fall apart to the extent that you found yourself having to accept the largesse of others, you got out of that situation as fast as you could.
These are people who have no shame. I don’t think that’s an effective recipe for continued Christian charity, nor a functioning nation.
Here’s another person without shame. This kid should be ashamed of his behavior, yet his situation is the fault of everyone else but himself. Notice how his lack of shame leads to entirely undeserved pride, and contempt for others?
There is a difference between laying shame on someone for your own ends, and shaming someone because they are acting in ways that are shameful. Just as there’s a difference between discipline and abuse. I love you, but I think you swung and whiffed on this one.
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You know what really compels people to comply with the standards of a civilized society? It’s not really shame, but rather a desire for acceptance and approval. We fear rejection, being ostracized, cast out, banished. Even grown ups succumb to peer pressure. We do things seeking the approval of others.
You can really see this in the world today. We shame, ridicule, and mock Christian ideals like chastity, purity, marriage, and many people fearing rejection and disapproval, tend to abandon these principles and go along with the herd. Then Christians come along and attempt to shame people back into compliance, when fear of being shamed is what lead many of them to wander off in the first place.
“Just as there’s a difference between discipline and abuse.”
Absolutely. Shame however is not the best technique for discipline either because it is somewhat dependent on the discipliner’s ability to never expose their own hypocrisy. The moment you reveal your own hypocrisy, you’ve relinquished moral authority. Sometimes when you try to raise kids you discover this, “do as I say not as I do” doesn’t work, because they tend to learn more from what is NOT being said, then what is actually being taught.
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Well, I suppose I’m one of your “little atheist friends” (at least here in the blogosphere) and, to be honest, I am not at all concerned about your level of submission to your husband, That’s between you and him, just as all interpersonal relationships and behaviors between and toward spouses are between the two of them. It’s not of my business, quite frankly. Hey, as I’ve always said, live and let live.
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LOL! No Doobster, you were not who I had in mind when I wrote that. I was actually thinking of a couple of women 😉
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Phew, that’s good to know.
So is “little atheist friends” the right way to describe these women, or would “little feminist friends” be more apropos? After all, one doesn’t need to be an atheist to be a feminist…and vice versa.
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They are both “atheist feminists.” It’s a bit of a running joke, but they define “submission” as “doormat,” a status I apparently often fail to achieve.
You’re quite right, there are feminists of all flavors, Christian feminists, too.
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Well, the term “doormat” as a way to define one person’s behavior or demeanor with respect to another isn’t exclusive to wives vis-a-vis their husbands. I’ve seen many men — okay, not many, but a few — who behave like doormats and allow their wives (or girlfriends) to walk all over them. I just found it curious that you would refer to these “feminists” as atheists, rather than feminists, since the two often have nothing to do with one another. As you noted, there are Christian feminists and atheist women (and men) who are not big supporters of the feminist movement.
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The vast majority of feminists do not identify as Christians, Doobster. Many of them claim Christianity is oppressive to women and make public statements about it.
You said the two have nothing to do with each other. Well they sort of do, you are less likely to find Christian feminists on the bandwagon for abortion, BC, gay marriage, equal pay, etc.
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Well, I don’t have any stats that I can refer to on the religious affiliations of feminists, but I don’t think the two ideologies, if you will, are inextricably intertwined.
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In my experience (having hung out with feminists for many years), I have found IB to be right – very few feminists are Christian. The idea of giving over control is contrary to their fundamental beliefs.
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Good discussion IB. Shame is one of those words that sinks into semantics very quickly, but all that aside, it’s my personal opinion that individual growth doesn’t have to evolve from shame. That’s a lazy convenient approach that fails more often than it succeeds. There are far better ways to bring about changes in behavior and they are well documented. Not one of the successful methods includes shame as a valid tool for change. It will never go away. But we do have a choice.
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I need this so much. I am far from perfect, but man. I started cleaning a church about three years ago. Talk about a lesson in having to loose your pride. There are some really great people there, but also those that like to make you feel like the janitor. The pastor for one. I was going to his bible studies. He is a really good teacher. However the next day I would go to work and he would address my by saying, “hey janitor” I would just play it off like, but it was hurtful. Then it got worse.
A man that struggles with depression volunteered at the church. He would occasionally make some sexual comments that made me uncomfortable. I would just try to stay clear of him.. Then one day he told me to “help me out” that when I look men in the eyes, I am unknowingly sending the signal that I want to have a sexual affair This man is 20 years older me and covered in cat hair. That is not what I was thinking, and I told him so. He answered by saying his wife agreed I looked like the kind of woman that would try stealing someone else husband. OMGoodness. I knew he had issues, so I told him how I felt and thought I would no longer talk with him at all. But after a while he went on to make a couple more passing sexual comments. I had enough and went to talk to the pastor about it.
The pastor, turned it all around back on me. Saying this man used to be a police officer and knows how to read people. Also, I should take what his wife said as a complement. Because she thought I was even good enough looking to steal someone else’s husband. Then it got worst from there. I was crying and just couldn’t believe what he we saying to me. I ended up complaining to the board. They made the pastor apologize to me, but the apology was not really an apology. He said he handled it wrong and they were just trying to help me. This was the same time I was going through the court case from the man that had abused my daughter. He also threw that in there as to why I was reacting the way I was. My husband wasn’t working much either, so I couldn’t quit. We did stop attending there.
That was about 1 1/2 years ago. I still work there. The rest of the staff only has the pastor’s side of the story, and I was then marginalized by everyone except the new secretary, who would whisper to me from time to time. “its not you” Thanking God for her. Then 6 months after that happened I had a miscarriage. I was still having to walk around doing my job being marginalized. Not to mention all the other digs you have to take from members because your the janitor. Things like “if we have any food left you can have some Denine. LOL I think to myself, well at least they offered. I had a vision once. In it I saw a religious Spirit walking inside that church.
I kept asking the Lord, why am I still here? But looking back now and reading your words makes me realizes God uses everything. In all of this, I heard myself, finally speaking up for myself. I refused to let them label me or define me. I just started figuring out what grace really is, and am I am staring to loose my pride which is liberating.. I finally stopped walking around all wounded and hurt. Like you say, it only empowers them anyway.
This has helped tremendously. I thank you for it.
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Ah, now there’s a powerful testimony. You really have been through the mill.
I used to work in a restaurant and we’d get the after church crowd. We used to draw straws to figure out who had to wait on them, because they were often bossy, demeaning, and terrible tippers. They always made sure everyone knew they were Christians, but treated everyone like the hired help.
God uses everything, indeed, and He uses everyone. I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through, but there is such wisdom and grace that can come from those experiences. I call it boot camp. 😉
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I know, I would much rather have it done to me, than to treat another human being like that. I think, unless we change, when we stand before our God our pride will be our shame. Like you said come to think of it with Adam and Eve. Man your smart!
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